Who is right??

[emeraldisle]

Miracles are claimed at both Lourdes & Mecca through people drinking water at these places. Please read the following info from Wikipedia re the Mecca claims;

Well of Zamzam

Main article: Zamzam Well
Muslims believe that the Zamzam well was revealed to Hagar (هاجر), mother of Ishmael. She was desperately seeking water for her infant son, but could find none. Mecca is located in a hot dry valley with few other sources of water. According to tradition, the water of the Zamzam well is divinely blessed. It is believed to satisfy both hunger and thirst, and cure illness. The water is served to the public through coolers stationed throughout the Masjid al-Haram and the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina. All pilgrims make every effort to drink of this water during their pilgrimage, and some dip their ihram clothing into it, so that the cloth can be used as their own burial shroud when they die.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

also the following comments were made by a poster in these forums;

My mother and I went to Lourdes in 2006. We brought home water. After drinking the water my father returned to the church afetr many years away. My wife was able to then seek healing for sexual abuse she suffered as a child.

Both now are cradled in our Lady’s and the Lord’s arms.

I KNOW these are miracles.

How can these “drinking water miracles” happen at both Lourdes & Mecca? Is it true that the “God” that Roman Catholics believe in isn’t the same “God” that the Muslims believe in? Who is right?

 

[LilyM]

Cures can happen for all sorts of reasons. Many by completely natural means which may not (or not yet) be understood to science.

Not everything that goes on either at Lourdes or Mecca that is claimed as a miracle is genuinely so. That’s why the Church itself thoroughly investigates any alleged miracle that is brought to its attention (for example in regard to candidates for sainthood). And rejects many as well - one reason why Mother Teresa is not yet a Saint and JP2 is not as yet a Blessed. In spite, I’m sure, of plenty of miracles being attributed to their intercession, none of which have stood up to the scrutiny as yet.

And there’s often an element of wishful/wilful thinking involved in these sorts of spontaneous cures (ie if I firmly believe that hopping on one leg for two minutes will cure me of a cold, there’s a fair chance that I will get better simply by believing and not as a direct result of what I’ve done).

Having said that, our faith or our decision that one religion is ‘right’ and the other not can’t and mustn’t depend on miracles. For one thing it is difficult to tell the real from the tricks/coincidences/etc. Remember Moses making the snake from Aaron’s staff (a real miracle) and then Pharoah’s magicians doing the same with their staves (conjuring)?

If you’re going to believe either in Catholicism or Islam, believe it based on thorough examination of their teachings, combined with fervent prayer to God to show you the right way (HE certainly doesn’t want you to be deceived!), and not based on alleged miracles at holy places of one faith or the other.

 

[masscup]

How can these “drinking water miracles” happen at both Lourdes & Mecca? Is it true that the “God” that Roman Catholics believe in isn’t the same “God” that the Muslims believe in? Who is right?

I’m not sure I understand you’re question so I want to be clear.

Are you asking if the Christian God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not the same God as the God muslims believe in? Or are you asking if God ( who is the same God btw) cannot perform miracles for different religions in different areas?

The God of Abraham is the God of Abraham. That means that he is also the God of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, as he is the God of Isaac, Abraham’s son.

Second, according to the Christian bible in Genesis 16:18-19 God says that he will make (Ishmael) a great nation. In verse 19, she “saw a well of water” (ZamZam).

So the miracles of water are not “restricted” to a certain religion, and either Christian or Muslim could easily argue that the well is the same well for both religions. There is not right or wrong, only different beliefs.

With God, anything is possible.

 

[emeraldisle]

Cures can happen for all sorts of reasons. Many by completely natural means which may not (or not yet) be understood to science.

Not everything that goes on either at Lourdes or Mecca that is claimed as a miracle is genuinely so. That’s why the Church itself thoroughly investigates any alleged miracle that is brought to its attention (for example in regard to candidates for sainthood). And rejects many as well - one reason why Mother Teresa is not yet a Saint and JP2 is not as yet a Blessed. In spite, I’m sure, of plenty of miracles being attributed to their intercession, none of which have stood up to the scrutiny as yet.

And there’s often an element of wishful/wilful thinking involved in these sorts of spontaneous cures (ie if I firmly believe that hopping on one leg for two minutes will cure me of a cold, there’s a fair chance that I will get better simply by believing and not as a direct result of what I’ve done).

Having said that, our faith or our decision that one religion is ‘right’ and the other not can’t and mustn’t depend on miracles. For one thing it is difficult to tell the real from the tricks/coincidences/etc. Remember Moses making the snake from Aaron’s staff (a real miracle) and then Pharoah’s magicians doing the same with their staves (conjuring)?

If you’re going to believe either in Catholicism or Islam, believe it based on thorough examination of their teachings, combined with fervent prayer to God to show you the right way (HE certainly doesn’t want you to be deceived!), and not based on alleged miracles at holy places of one faith or the other.

Thanks for answering my question. Are you saying that we can’t really believe what people say about what happens at Lourdes. Why do so many people take the water at Lourdes to get a miracle?

Also what do you use to test/examine whats happening at Lourdes? I mean where can you find evidence/facts to prove whether these things are true?

The example you used re Moses, does this show us that both God and satan can do miracles?

 

[emeraldisle]

I’m not sure I understand you’re question so I want to be clear.

Are you asking if the Christian God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not the same God as the God muslims believe in? Or are you asking if God ( who is the same God btw) cannot perform miracles for different religions in different areas?

The God of Abraham is the God of Abraham. That means that he is also the God of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, as he is the God of Isaac, Abraham’s son.

Second, according to the Christian bible in Genesis 16:18-19 God says that he will make (Ishmael) a great nation. In verse 19, she “saw a well of water” (ZamZam).

So the miracles of water are not “restricted” to a certain religion, and either Christian or Muslim could easily argue that the well is the same well for both religions. There is not right or wrong, only different beliefs.

With God, anything is possible.

Thanks for your answer. Are you saying the God of the Bible is the same as Allah of the Koran?

 

[masscup]

Thanks for your answer. Are you saying the God of the Bible is the same as Allah of the Koran?

Please don’t take my answer as sarcastic because that is not my intent.

If the Muslims trace the line of their prophets and beliefs back to Ishmael, son of Hagar, handmaid to Sarah and Abraham. And Ishmael’s father was Abraham, and Abraham was also the father of Isaac, and the father of both christians and jews, then one would have to conclude that the God of Abraham is the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Now as far as Allah of the Koran being the same God, I believe so. However, there are some that argue that Allah was a bedouin moon god. That is not my belief or opinion here.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks for answering my question. Are you saying that we can’t really believe what people say about what happens at Lourdes. Why do so many people take the water at Lourdes to get a miracle?

Also what do you use to test/examine whats happening at Lourdes? I mean where can you find evidence/facts to prove whether these things are true?

The example you used re Moses, does this show us that both God and satan can do miracles?

Well, both God and Satan can do supernatural events, for sure. Even St Paul said Satan can imitate an angel of light. But what happened with Pharaoh’s magicians was a natural conjuring magic trick, not anything supernatural.

The definition of a ‘miracle’ is that it is a supernatural event done by God for His benevolent purposes. Anything of the supernatural sort done by Satan is done for malevolent (evil) purposes, including inducing people to believe wrong religions.

As for verification of miracles, it’s a tricky process. Usually independent scientific or medical experts are involved, to eliminate any type of bias.

It may go something along these lines - imagine that someone suffers a particular form of cancer. This type of cancer is one that has been studied very thoroughly, and researchers know very well the way the cancer progresses. They know that once it reaches a certain point it never goes into remission, death is inevitable. and follows quickly (say a matter of days or weeks). No exceptions ever recorded, in all the many many cases that have been studied.

Then someone with exactly this type of cancer who is at exactly this irrecoverable stage (and that fact in itself has to be well-proven, so they’ll eliminate the possibility of a wrong diagnosis etc) goes to Lourdes, drinks the water and all traces of the cancer vanish. This also has to be well-documented and the patient thoroughly examined to eliminate any other possibilities like a change in diet or treatment, that could have caused the cure. And the patient also continues to live healthily well beyond the days or weeks that patients with that type of cancer live.

All the independent doctors (and they’d always get numerous opinions) verify both the cure and that based on extensive knowledge of the disease it simply shouldn’t have happened.

But like I said in my first post, DON’T base your faith in Christ on miracles, for crying out loud! God created us as logical beings. Examine the teachings of Catholicism, and Islam as well if you like, and base your faith on solid reason.

 

[BeeSweet]

Why can’t both be right? Catholics worship the God of Abraham as do Jews and Muslims. Catholics know God through His Word Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean Jews and Muslims don’t worship the same God because they don’t know Him as we know Him. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

This is the God who created all water and all the earth and everything on the earth and in the sky. The miracles of the water at Zamzam and at Lourdes are similar in that the springs appeared miraculously when and where they were needed. Keep in mind Bernadette herself could not be healed by the waters at Lourdes. That does not mean the other miracles that did and do occur there are any less miraculous. God’s ways are not our ways.

 

[emeraldisle]

Please don’t take my answer as sarcastic because that is not my intent.

If the Muslims trace the line of their prophets and beliefs back to Ishmael, son of Hagar, handmaid to Sarah and Abraham. And Ishmael’s father was Abraham, and Abraham was also the father of Isaac, and the father of both christians and jews, then one would have to conclude that the God of Abraham is the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Now as far as Allah of the Koran being the same God, I believe so. However, there are some that argue that Allah was a bedouin moon god. That is not my belief or opinion here.

Am i right in thinking that you are saying that the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca are being done by the same God?

Then how is it that the God of the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God and yet Allah says through the Koran that Jesus is just a good prophet and not the Son of God. Who is telling the truth?

 

[emeraldisle]

Well, both God and Satan can do supernatural events, for sure. Even St Paul said Satan can imitate an angel of light. But what happened with Pharaoh’s magicians was a natural conjuring magic trick, not anything supernatural.

The definition of a ‘miracle’ is that it is a supernatural event done by God for His benevolent purposes. Anything of the supernatural sort done by Satan is done for malevolent (evil) purposes, including inducing people to believe wrong religions.

As for verification of miracles, it’s a tricky process. Usually independent scientific or medical experts are involved, to eliminate any type of bias.

It may go something along these lines - imagine that someone suffers a particular form of cancer. This type of cancer is one that has been studied very thoroughly, and researchers know very well the way the cancer progresses. They know that once it reaches a certain point it never goes into remission, death is inevitable. and follows quickly (say a matter of days or weeks). No exceptions ever recorded, in all the many many cases that have been studied.

Then someone with exactly this type of cancer who is at exactly this irrecoverable stage (and that fact in itself has to be well-proven, so they’ll eliminate the possibility of a wrong diagnosis etc) goes to Lourdes, drinks the water and all traces of the cancer vanish. This also has to be well-documented and the patient thoroughly examined to eliminate any other possibilities like a change in diet or treatment, that could have caused the cure. And the patient also continues to live healthily well beyond the days or weeks that patients with that type of cancer live.

All the independent doctors (and they’d always get numerous opinions) verify both the cure and that based on extensive knowledge of the disease it simply shouldn’t have happened.

But like I said in my first post, DON’T base your faith in Christ on miracles, for crying out loud! God created us as logical beings. Examine the teachings of Catholicism, and Islam as well if you like, and base your faith on solid reason.

Its interesting you use the illustration of physical healing re miracles but in my op the comment i quoted didn’t refer to physical healing. How would you verify the type of miracles mention in my op?

Not sure about what you say re the Pharaoh’s magicians using human tricks. They did nearly all the same miracles as Moses did.

The Muslims say the Koran is true and Christians say the Bible is true. How do you prove which one is true and therefore base our faith on the truth.

Surely both(Koran & Bible) can’t be true, also surely you can’t say the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca are both true. Or is it possible that none of the miracles at Lourdes or Mecca are true?

 

[BeeSweet]

The truth is told in the Bible. The miracle at Zamzam is recorded in the Bible in Gen 21:19. The Qu’ran was dictated by Muhammed to people who could write it down for him, since he was illiterate. When you read the Qu’ran it’s fairly plain to see this since the stories told in the Qu’ran are the much the same as the Bible, but with less substance. The Qu’ran comes from an oral tradition, whereas the Bible comes from a written tradition.

Of course, since I don’t speak Arabic, I’m told I can’t really read the Qu’ran. It’s no longer the word of God once it’s translated.

 

[emeraldisle]

The truth is told in the Bible. The miracle at Zamzam is recorded in the Bible in Gen 21:19. The Qu’ran was dictated by Muhammed to people who could write it down for him, since he was illiterate. When you read the Qu’ran it’s fairly plain to see this since the stories told in the Qu’ran are the much the same as the Bible, but with less substance. The Qu’ran comes from an oral tradition, whereas the Bible comes from a written tradition.

Of course, since I don’t speak Arabic, I’m told I can’t really read the Qu’ran. It’s no longer the word of God once it’s translated.

Does it say in the Bible that this well does the following; “It is believed to satisfy both hunger and thirst, and cure illness.”

Why would the God of the Bible give us another book called the Koran when it contradicts the Bible. God says in the Bible that Jesus is the Son of God and yet Allah says in the Koran that Jesus is just a good prophet and not the Son of God. Why would God give us these two books that say two different things about Jesus. Is is true that either the Bible is true or the Koran is true, surely both can’t be right?

 

[BeeSweet]

Does it say in the Bible that this well does the following; “It is believed to satisfy both hunger and thirst, and cure illness.”

Nope, not that I can see. The miracle is that the well appeared for Hagar when she and Ishmael ran out of the water that Abraham had sent with them.

Why would the God of the Bible give us another book called the Koran when it contradicts the Bible. God says in the Bible that Jesus is the Son of God and yet Allah says in the Koran that Jesus is just a good prophet and not the Son of God. Why would God give us these two books that say two different things about Jesus. Is is true that either the Bible is true or the Koran is true, surely both can’t be right?

God gave us the Bible, not the Qu’ran. God speaks in the Qu’ran only so much as the Qu’ran sometimes is in sync with the Bible. Muhammed claims angels dictated it to him, and he dictated it to people who could read and write for him. In and of itself alone, the Qu’ran is not the word of God.

 

[puzzleannie]

people claim all kinds of miracles at all kinds of times and places, that does not make them genuine miracles. The Catholic Church has a strict definition of a miraculous healing, and applies stringent standards and tests to an alleged miracle. Of the thousands of people who claim to have been healed at Lourdes, fewer than 100 have been authenticated by the this process, in which the medical investigation is done by independent doctors and scientists, not by the Church. For a healing to be miraculous first they have to prove with medical evidence the condition existed, that it was not curable by ordinary medical means, that the cure was sudden and unexpected, and not attributable to any medical treatment or therapy, that the cure persisted, and that science cannot find any natural explanation of the cure. It has to be genuine, sudden, lasting, and supernatural. very few alleged cures meet those criteria.

I have no idea if or how miracle claims are authenticated at other sites so cannot comment.

God can heal anyone He pleases at any time and place he chooses, for his own reasons, and owes no explanation or justification for his actions to anyone (see my sig).

 

[Lev23]

The Muslims say the Koran is true and Christians say the Bible is true. How do you prove which one is true and therefore base our faith on the truth.

Surely both(Koran & Bible) can’t be true, also surely you can’t say the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca are both true. Or is it possible that none of the miracles at Lourdes or Mecca are true?

For one, the bible is true because of prophecy. Archaeology is another slam dunk proof.

 

[LilyM]

Its interesting you use the illustration of physical healing re miracles but in my op the comment i quoted didn’t refer to physical healing. How would you verify the type of miracles mention in my op?

Not sure about what you say re the Pharaoh’s magicians using human tricks. They did nearly all the same miracles as Moses did.

The Muslims say the Koran is true and Christians say the Bible is true. How do you prove which one is true and therefore base our faith on the truth.

Surely both(Koran & Bible) can’t be true, also surely you can’t say the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca are both true. Or is it possible that none of the miracles at Lourdes or Mecca are true?

Why do you think Pharaoh’s servants were called MAGICIANS, for crying out loud? If they did what they did by supernatural means they’d be wizards, sorcerers, and so on, which is a different thing altogether.

David Copperfield is a modern-day magician/illusionist. He’s claimed to do all sorts of things up to and including making himself and other people disappear. Not a one of the things he’s done is supernatural in any way, nor has he ever claimed such, they’re all either trickery or illusion.

I’m sure he could’ve made an audience believe they’d seen most anything, either by working on their minds or by making something real happen which looked convincingly like what he wanted.

As for verifying the types of miracles you’re talking about - sure, it’s much more difficult with certain types of events, which is why the Church doesn’t approve many of them. However it can be and is done at times, again with appropriate independent scientific analysis and observation.

One instance is the miracle of the Sun at Fatima - October 13 1917. There were 70-90 thousand people who were there on that day. Many were journalists, many irreligious atheists who certainly were counting on absolutely nothing happening. Most all saw the miracle.

What they saw was recorded very carefully - statements taken from most if not all of them. The accunts were compared with each other and with known behaviour of the sun (which we’ve been studying since the dawn of civilisation and know very well!).

That many people simply couldn’t have all been lying or deluded. Then there were physical clues - although it was raining on that day no-one got wet, things like that.

Again, for the third time, why are you so hung up about miracles? You know what Jesus said about a generation that seeks for a sign instead of believing in Him from their hearts.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I think it is more of a misuse of Quran and Bible not that much of a miracle perhaps; the Revealed Books are not for physical cures of the humans, for that they are supposed to go to the Physicians and Surgeons or if they are superstitious they should go to the Psychiatrics. The Revealed Books are primarily for the guidance of the peoples; at least Quran is very clear about it.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is **no doubt **in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them.
[2:5] And who believe in that **which has been revealed to thee and that which was revealed before thee **and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=2

Please don’t misuse the Revealed Books.

Thanks

 

[Righteousone]

The Catholic Lourdes is right. Because there are documented cases by the thousands of cures that are attributed there. Where are there documented cures from Mecca? Personally, i do not believe any other miracles than through my Blessed Mother who appeared at Lourdes. Did Mohammed appear at Mecca?

 

[emeraldisle]

God gave us the Bible, not the Qu’ran. God speaks in the Qu’ran only so much as the Qu’ran sometimes is in sync with the Bible. Muhammed claims angels dictated it to him, and he dictated it to people who could read and write for him. In and of itself alone, the Qu’ran is not the word of God.

How can the God of the Bible speak though the Koran when it contradicts the Bible, Gods Word?

For God is not the author of confusion 1 Corinthians 14:33

 

[AgnosTheist]

If Islam’s Allah is the one true God, and that God is serving muslims with genuine miracles through the well of Zamzam,** does that mean that Islam is a true religion from God?**