Who is the bride?

[thistle]

Hi,
I KNOW I DO NOT KNOW everything about the CC. How could I was not raised catholic. Although I am learning alot from this forum. Sad to say it is not convincing me at all that the CC is the one and only church of Christ.
**
I would venture to say that catholics dont know alot either**. They may know more then I but probably not much more. Except for the people on these forums. You guys know alot!!

Thats a bold statement which you must be able to substantiate. What specifically do you think Catholics don’t know?

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hi,
I KNOW I DO NOT KNOW everything about the CC. How could I was not raised catholic. Although I am learning alot from this forum. Sad to say it is not convincing me at all that the CC is the one and only church of Christ.

I would venture to say that catholics dont know alot either. They may know more then I but probably not much more. Except for the people on these forums. You guys know alot!!

You see you just said that you “don’t” know the Catholic Church. Seeing you were not raised Catholic it is “by no fault of your own” that you don’t know the Church. Although, you have taken upon yourself to learn and not remain ignorant! Praise God!

You are right, there are many Catholic’s that don’t know the Church, for some it’s because it is “by no fault of their own” for others it is because “they don’t care to know more”. Each case depends on the individual it’s NOT “one size fits all” thing.

Same thing for those that were raise Non-Catholic. For some it’s “by no fault of their own” that they don’t know that Catholic Church. For others it’s because they don’t care to know.

Choosing to be ignorant does not make you ignorant. What I mean by that is that you, ALLFORHIM, have been given a chance to learn about the Catholic Faith. So you are learning. Therefore you are no longer remaining ignorant. Granted you may not accept or understand everything, but clearly you are trying. Hopefully you have other reliable sources to learn about Catholicism beside these forums

However there are others that are given that change and just ignore it. These people are no longer ignorant, because they had a chance, maybe even several chances, but refused to open up, refuse to even to try to learn.:crying:

May God Bless you on your Journey of Faith.
Yes I believe that Faith is a Journey and like all Journeys it has its ups and its downs

Mommyof02green

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thats a bold statement which you must be able to substantiate. What specifically do you think Catholics don’t know?

Hi,

I am not saying all catholics, but a majority. I feel they are not taught well. I have spoken with many 8th graders when I ask them what they learn and what it means to be confirmed. They say we get to decide if we want to go to church anymore Im sure that is not right. With my adult catholic friends, who go to church, I cant even have a discussion about the CC. When I ask them about the CC beliefs they say I dont know. I can only say it has been my experience. I have many catholic friends because I live in an area highly populated by catholics–my in laws included. None of my in-laws could help me either. Oh and if I do get an answer it has been different then what you guys on the forum say I was taken back by that. I asked about the Marian doctrines and a bunch of my catholic friends said that the people on the forums must be crazy legalistics. There is an obvious widespread difference among catholics and what they believe. I live in NJ and they think different then you guys do all over the country and world. I also asked about confession and having to go to Mass every Sunday and they were very dismissive to what you all believe.

My guess is that they are not being taught well enough.

This is just my humble opinion.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Thats a bold statement which you must be able to substantiate. What specifically do you think Catholics don’t know?

Thistle, it’s NO secret that there are SOME Catholics that don’t know or fully understand Catholicism… This is because maybe they were poorly catecheses as kids, or they just didn’t get it as kids.

Many Dioceses are doing a “revival” within the Church… Our Dioceses is doing a “Why Catholic???” program to re-teach the faithful about the faith. Why do you think that Catholic Answers is popular, Scott Hahn, or Fr. Corapi… 80% of their listeners are Catholics learning or re-learning about Catholic Faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thats a bold statement which you must be able to substantiate. What specifically do you think Catholics don’t know?

I think she’s nailed it on the head. Sadly, the average convert knows more than the average cradler.

I wish all cradlers would attend RCIA or something like it every 10 years.

Let me correct that last statement. I wish all Catholics would spend their time trying to learn more about their faith.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hi, I am not saying all catholics, but a majority. I feel they are not taught well.

I wouldn’t say majority. The Catholic Church is world wide and some areas do better then others, so I would say that it’s more about 50/50. Although that is too high of a number!!!

I have spoken with many 8th graders when I ask them what they learn and what it means to be confirmed. They say we get to decide if we want to go to church anymore Im sure that is not right.

Children some times here what they want to hear Here is what Confirmation means:
The book: Catholicism for Dummies page 109:

The body and mind must grow to stay alive. Catholics believe that the soul also needs to grow in the life of grace. Just as the human body must grow through childhood, adolescence, and then adulthood, the human soul needs to grow to maturity. Catholics believe that Confirmation is the supernatural equivalent of the growth process of the natural level. It builds on what was begun at Baptism and what was nourished in the Holy Eucharist. It completes the process of initiation into the Christian community, and matures the soul for the work ahead.

At Confirmation, before the bishop, the young adult renews those same promises (the ones made at baptism). However this time in her/his own words.

In other words Confirmation is the moment that we Catholic “personally” accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. We personally accept the Church and personally make that commitment to Christ.

Some teachers, in hopes to stress to the kids that it’s their personal choice may say things that come out the wrong way. Hence the kids’ think this is the moment they choose not to go to church.

With my adult catholic friends, who go to church, I cant even have a discussion about the CC. When I ask them about the CC beliefs they say I dont know. I can only say it has been my experience.

It’s sad I know! However, I tend to ask them why don’t they know. I ask them why don’t they read the CCC, the Bible or other resource that will help them learn.

I have many catholic friends because I live in an area highly populated by catholics–my in laws included. None of my in-laws could help me either. Oh and if I do get an answer it has been different then what you guys on the forum say

Sometimes "personal’ opinion change what they believe is right.

I was taken back by that. I asked about the Marian doctrines and a bunch of my catholic friends said that the people on the forums must be crazy legalistics. There is an obvious widespread difference among catholics and what they believe.

. There might be wide spread opinions and personal believes of what is right and what is wrong. However the Church teaching are very clear.

I live in NJ and they think different then you guys do all over the country and world. I also asked about confession and having to go to Mass every Sunday and they were very dismissive to what you all believe.

Again those are personal opinion… The CCC states that you must go to church on Sunday and Holy Days. The CCC state that Mortal sins must be confessed to a priest and that you must do it at least once a year… of course the more the better.

My guess is that they are not being taught well enough.

This is just my humble opinion.

You are right there are some that are just not being taught.

 

[jemfinch]

So you’re claiming you can visibly see Christ?

Every time I go to mass.

Jeremy

 

[jemfinch]

Wow, talk about a thread hijack! I’ll respond systematically.

And the CCC restricts it to only those “Catholic” churches that are in communion with the Roman See? Correct?

A Church is only a Church if it has a valid apostolic succession; everything else is just an ecclesial community.

The Church is the Catholic Church, comprised of the Church triumphant (the members of the Church in heaven), the Church suffering (the members of the Church in purgatory), and the Church militant (the members of the Church on earth).

Entrance into the Church is ordinarily accomplished by baptism. All those who are baptized are members of the Church by virtue of their baptism, whether they attend a Catholic Church, an Orthodox Church, a Protestant ecclesial community, or no religious group at all. Those who are baptized are baptized into Christ, into His Body, the Church.

Communion with Rome determines the degree of communion with the Church, not the existence of communion with the Church.

In general, then, the Bride is the “Roman Catholic” church. Hence, no “churches” outside communion with the Roman See can honestly be considered part of the “Bride of Christ.” Correct?

No institution but the Catholic Church can be truthfully called “the Bride of Christ.” Christ is not polygamous.

So by your definition, NONE of the “30,000 plus protestants” or the Eastern Orthodox, or any others not under the jurisdiction of the Roman See, can be included in Rev. 19.

You’ve made a subtle and incorrect change here. You’ve changed from talking about institutions (“no ‘churches’ outside of communion with the Roman see”) to talking about members of institutions. Here’s where your confusion lies: the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, but membership in the Catholic Church is determined by valid Trinitarian baptism, whether received in the Catholic Chuch or in some other institution.

So therefore, if you were honest in your definition, unless one converts to Roman Catholicism he/she is not, and cannot be, part of the Bride of Christ - bottom line: not saved. Right?

Of course, that’s not what we’re saying, because that’s not what the Church teaches. You’re making a category error, confusing institutions with members.

Yes, and that leaves out Eastern/Russian Orthodox and all Protestants. It does not include ANY who are not in communion with the ROMAN See.

It does not include any institution that is not in communion with the Roman See. It includes many members whose communion is imperfect.

So if you say “the Bride” is “the Church,” who do you mean “the Bride” to be?

The Bride is the Church, the group of people validly baptized into it. The Chuch subsists in the Catholic Chuch: it lives there, even though not all members of the Church are in communion with the Catholic Church.

Both Eastern and Latin “Rite,” including the Eastern Orthodox and Protestants? Do ALL of these make up “the Bride of Christ” mentioned in Rev. 19? Or just those in communion with the ROMAN See?

No institution but the Catholic Church may be properly said to be the Bride of Christ, because the Bride of Christ, the Church, does not subsist anywhere but the Catholic Church. Again, you’re making category errors willy-nilly by not observing the distinction between members and institutions.

So then are you saying that if I’m baptized in the Trinitarian formula I’m automatically part of the “Bride of Christ?” Even if I belong to one of the so-called “30,000 Protestant plus” denominations?

Yes. But you’re in imperfect communion with it. To take the bodily analogy further, you’re like a stuffed-up nose or an arm that’s gone to sleep: yes, you’re part of the body (by virtue of being attached), but you’re not working with it as well as some other parts (and still, probably, better than even other parts, who may be even sicker; there are wheats and tares, of course).

But in regards to your post:You must admit this is all quite ambiguous. What would “through no fault of their own” even mean?

Someone born into a Protestant household, whose exposure to Catholicism was limited to the standard misconceptions most people have, would certainly not be culpable for rejecting what they believe to be the Catholic Church.

Jeremy

 

[apophasis]

You’re part of the bride, but not in complete communion with the Bride.

The Church offers the Forgiveness of our Sins, through Confession. She offers the Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ through the Eucharist. These all bestows God’s Graces on us through His Bride, the Church. There are numerous other Gifts that Jesus left with His Bride that you are not taking advantage of.

But I would say you are still part of the Bride.

This is a contradiction based on your post #36. And in your statement above, who is “us,” and “His Bride, the Church?” You make a distinction between the two.

 

[apophasis]

jemfinch:

No institution but the Catholic Church may be properly said to be the Bride of Christ, because the Bride of Christ, the Church, does not subsist anywhere but the Catholic Church. Again, you’re making category errors willy-nilly by not observing the distinction between members and institutions.

Actually you’re doing the same thing. You describe the “Catholic Church” as a separate institution from its members, those in communion with “it,” and those not.

Yes. But you’re in imperfect communion with it.

See what I mean? None of it makes sense.

 

[mdcpensive1]

NotWorthy is correct.
The Council of Trent says so too.
mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

Apophasis, has your questions been answered yet ? There have been a lot of post.
mdcpensive1

 

[NotWorthy]

This is a contradiction based on your post #36. And in your statement above, who is “us,” and “His Bride, the Church?” You make a distinction between the two.

There’s no contradiction. God channels His Graces through the Church to Her members (us).

His Bride, the Church = the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Toe-may’-toe, Toe-mah’-toe.

 

[jemfinch]

Actually you’re doing the same thing.

No, I’m not. I’m making a distinction between institutions and members because they are in different categories. You’re confusing the two, and using the terms interchangeably, as if there were no distinction. It doesn’t take a philosophical genius to see that there’s a clear distinction between an institution and the members that comprise it. We even have a turn of phrase in English to describe that distinction: “the sum is greater than its parts.”

You describe the “Catholic Church” as a separate institution from its members, those in communion with “it,” and those not. See what I mean? None of it makes sense.

Yes, because the Catholic Church is more than just its members. If that’s a concept too difficult for you to understand, I must wonder how you can handle the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union.

Jeremy

 

[Mommyof02green]

Who is my Family???
My Family is those that live under the house that I do.

However, My Family is also all those that I’m related to that I do not live with… my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, great aunts, great uncles, great grandparents, neices, nephews etc. My family is also those that married people that I’m related to the “in-laws”.

Who is the Church???
The Church is those members that worship under one house.

However the Church is also those that are related and incorporated into Christ by baptism.

There is so much more to a family then the people that live in a certain house.

Just like there is so much more to the family of God then the people that worship in the Catholic Church.

It’s hard to understand I know!

 

[Mommyof02green]

I see the test:
What is the church?
A) The members of the Catholic Church
B) All of those that are baptized and believe in Christ.However, some of us are looking at the test and are asking where is:

C) The answer is A and B
We know that there is more to the Catholic Church then just those that are in full communion with the Church. I think that you may want to us to say the answer is B) and forget about A). However, I can’t just ignore A). Ignoring A) would to be like ignoring the people that I live with, my hubby and children.

My hubby and children are apart of my family and in many ways I am closer to them then to anybody else. I have a tight bond with them, a bond that is tighter then what I have with my in-laws. I have a tight bond with them, a bond that is tighter then I have with my mom, sisters, and brother etc.

Why is this bond tighter? It’s tighter, because these are the people that I’m in full communion with. My hubby and children are the people that I pray with, they are the people I worship God with, and they are the people that I eat with daily. If am asked where is your family? I immediately think of my hubby and kids. No doubt there.

However when thinking about it I realize that there is more to “my” family then the people I live and commune with. My family also includes those that I do not see regularly. My family includes those that are outside the confines of my home. The list is nearly endless. It’s parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews. The list is multi-generational and includes those that are living with us on Earth and those that are in the life after. The list of my family members also includes all those “in laws” people that are related to me, simply because they married someone that I was already related too.

The narrow picture said that my family is those I live with.
The big picture said that my family is all those that I’m related too past, present, and future.

It’s good to have a big picture, however it’s nice to also have a narrower view too.

I think it’s bad to just focus on the narrow picture, because you loose site of the big picture.
I also think it’s bad to just focus on the big picture. When you focus on the big picture, you loose site of the narrow picture, and you become disconnected. We need to have those tight personal connections.

So the answer is not A) only or B) only. The answer is C).

What is the Church?
The members of the Catholic Church and all those that are baptized and believe in Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

I see the test:
What is the church?A) The members of the Catholic ChurchB) All of those that are baptized and believe in Christ.However, some of us are looking at the test and are asking where is:
C) The answer is A and B

But you are forgetting the institutional Church. How can we celebrate the Mass without our priests? Or Confession? Who is guided to instruct us in all Truths?

Christ uses the Church to distribute Graces (yes, I know, not ALL Graces are channeled through the Church) to Her memebers.

 

[Mommyof02green]

But you are forgetting the institutional Church. How can we celebrate the Mass without our priests? Or Confession? Who is guided to instruct us in all Truths?

Christ uses the Church to distribute Graces (yes, I know, not ALL Graces are channeled through the Church) to Her memebers.

Am I???

What is a relationshiop between parent and child???
They both live under one roof. They are in full communion with each other. However what is their realtionship like???

Baby steps, NotWorthy, Baby steps… one concept at a time!

A child can’t learn to read without knowing each letter of the alphabet! One Step at a time!

 

[dmm2000]

And the CCC restricts it to only those “Catholic” churches that are in communion with the Roman See? Correct? In general, then, the Bride is the “Roman Catholic” church. Hence, no “churches” outside communion with the Roman See can honestly be considered part of the “Bride of Christ.” Correct?

Now, it is the “Bride” which has made herself ready in Rev. 19:7 in preparation for the “marriage of the Lamb” and the subsequent “marriage supper” of the Lamb (vs. 9). According to the passage, these take place just prior to and at the 2nd Advent of Christ.

So by your definition, NONE of the “30,000 plus protestants” or the Eastern Orthodox, or any others not under the jurisdiction of the Roman See, can be included in Rev. 19.

So therefore, if you were honest in your definition, unless one converts to Roman Catholicism he/she is not, and cannot be, part of the Bride of Christ - bottom line: not saved. Right?

From CUFF:

Without the Church There is No Salvation

Issue: What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus)?

ResponsE: All salvation comes through Jesus Christ, the one Savior of the world (cf. Acts 4:12). His Holy Spirit dispenses those graces through His body, the Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Lk. 10:16).

Quoting from various documents of Vatican II and Pope Paul VI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (no. 776) explains:

As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. She is taken up by Him also as the instrument for the salvation of all, the universal sacrament of salvation, by which Christ is at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men. The Church is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity, because God desires that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit. (see also nos. 846-848)

Discussion: There are two principal errors when it comes to the Church’s teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Some reject this teaching as both incorrect and arrogant. Others interpret this statement to condemn all those who are not visibly united to the Roman Catholic Church. To come to the proper understanding of this teaching, we must examine it within the context of divine Revelation and Church history. This examination will reveal that the phrase was not formulated to express who would go to heaven and who would go to hell, for only God will judge that. Rather, the phrase expresses an understanding of the Church in relation to her role in the salvation of the world.

Translation or Interpretation?

Many people translate the Latin phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus as “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” This translation does not seem entirely faithful to the Latin meaning, and contributes to the misunderstanding of the phrase.

The Latin word “extra” is both an adverb and preposition. Depending on its use in a sentence, the word has different meanings. When used to describe spatial relations between objects, the word is translated as “beyond” or “outside of”(e.g., beyond the creek is a tree; or, James is outside of the room). When used to describe abstract relations between concepts or intangible things, the word is commonly translated “without” (e.g., Without a method, it is difficult to teach). Within the phrase in question, extra is a preposition describing the abstract relationship of the Church to salvation. Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, “Without the Church there is no salvation.” This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis, has your questions been answered yet ? There have been a lot of post.
mdcpensive1

Yes, thank you all. I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to my nagging questions. I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from. I agree with all of you that the Church is the Bride, but where we part is exactly who the Church is and even how one becomes a member of her.