WHo is the cry room for?

[CradleJourney]

I think we’ve covered the OP’s main question but I have a side kind of tangent…

are cry rooms really wise? How young is too young for children to learn to be quiet at Mass? I can see with newborns and infants under a year or so but I dunno…

Now in theory though, I think a cry room can be a good idea especially for new bf-ing moms, and for those with toddlers who are simply wired to be in perpetual motion.

I had one of those - he’s in 6th grade now and as well behaved as anyone could ask. However, ages 10 months to 3 years old, he was a perpetual motion machine. We did figure out though that if we sat in the very rear pew, he could make “laps” crawling under the pew (no kneeler on the back of that one), standing up, going around the end, and crawling under again.

Before I gave birth to him, I would have NEVER let a child of mine do such a thing. My first 3 quickly learned to sit / stand quietly and look at picture books - but not him

Would have used the cry room a lot with him if it hadn’t of been so crowded, especially with so many parents feeding their kids snacks all through mass - and that was one thing I wasn’t going to make any exception for. When they were infants, I was willing to feed them a bottle, but never understood how any child over 1 year old (without medical necessity) couldn’t go an hour between snacks.

 

[PrairieDawn]

I don’t like using the cry room for the entirety of mass. For me, it was a place, in a small building, where I could take an actively crying baby that is not outdoors in inclement weather. (The gathering space is very small, doorless, and acoustically unsuitable in some churches.) If there’s a baby crying in my ear, I’m not going to hear the liturgy anyway, so when the weather is decent I just go outside with my toddler until she settles.

Fortunately, my older two, aged 13 and 7, are well behaved in church. They forget and whisper occasionally, and sometimes try too hard to calm the baby, which usually makes matters worse, but that’s a competence issue, not a naughtiness issue. But then, the oldest is a nerdy child who attends academic panels on writing and author talks for fun, and the middle one is obedient almost to a fault. (No, honey, misspelling words and getting arithmetic problems wrong do not count as lying). They were both challenging toddlers, though.

In my experience, a badly behaved child you see in church or on the street is often not behaving the way they usually behave for a reason. I try to say an extra prayer for them, because chances are that inexplicably impossible preschooler is about ready to spike a 103 degree fever or throw up in mom’s lap.

 

[Usige]

I like the idea of the crying room being the place where adults who don’t like children go.

I got rid of the crying room in my current parish as it was a cold unwelcoming place at the back of the Church. It seemed to encourage parents to go there to chat regardless of whether their children were distressed or not.

Instead I dedicated a side chapel which is enclosed and has a much better view of the sanctuary to families and children. The Chapel does have a side altar, a shrine to the Sacred Heart and candle stands. I have been asked to remove the candle stands to make it safer for unruly toddlers, but I have refused, reminding the parents that they need to take responsibility for their childrens behaviour and safety.

The advantage of the side chapel is that parents actually have to come into the church, whereas the old crying room was accessed via the entrance foyer.

This is a particularly sensitive issue as everyone has needs and sometimes they are incompatible. I however, consider the children to be more important than adults, so prioritise there needs wherever possible. I hate the idea of children being banned from Church, it reminds me of Mark 10:13-16 “Let the little children come to me, do not stop them!”

:clapping: - Father P, I am so glad to hear a priest say these things. The idea that certain classes of people should automatically be banished seems to be too prevalent in our society. I find that kids that constantly sit in cry rooms tend to learn far later to pay attention to the Mass and I wish more parishes would abandon the concept. I do like your solution to have an enclosed side chapel that opens into the nave rather than an exterior entrance from the narthex or a side hall.

 

[Usige]

The sound of a crying or fussy baby is the sound of a Pro-Life decision.

:yup:

I’ve always said that a parish devoid of crying and laughing children is a parish that will be empty all too quickly.

 

[Sarabande]

:yup:

I’ve always said that a parish devoid of crying and laughing children is a parish that will be empty all too quickly.

Yes. That is exactly why one of the parishes where I work didn’t want a cry room installed. There were too many years of no sounds of children because there were no children. The sounds were welcomed because it meant to them that the parish was alive again and that there was a future. There are many babies and children there (including my own) and the parents have been very good at keeping them behaved or taking them out in the back if needed. The pastor is wonderful there. It is because of him that the parish has been growing after many years of decline. I came when he was there a little over a year and I have seen the growth.

 

[babochka]

Before I gave birth to him, I would have NEVER let a child of mine do such a thing. My first 3 quickly learned to sit / stand quietly and look at picture books - but not him

God gives us those special gifts of humility, doesn’t he? If I only had my oldest and youngest, I’d be such an arrogant parent.

 

[CradleJourney]

God gives us those special gifts of humility, doesn’t he? If I only had my oldest and youngest, I’d be such an arrogant parent.

 

[Brendan_64]

Cry rooms are designed for babies and toddlers, for whom a children’s liturgy would not be appropriate.

Well why can’t their parents keep the toddlers under control then? Set appropriate expectations for their behaviour in Church and punish them afterwards if they don’t keep to these expectations? There are a great many parents who have well-behaved toddlers at Mass. It is not unreasonable to expect parents to expect their toddlers to behave at Mass, and to use their parental authority to enforce this. Toddlers do not have a right to behave like this, and parents do not have a right ignore their parental responsibilities through not exercising proper control over their children.

As for babies? So what if a little baby cries occasionally. If it gets too much then the parent can go for a short break outside the church while she calms the baby.

I just think it is bizarre that some people now seem to expect toddlers to misbehave and that it is somehow not possible for a parent to control this. Hard as it might be at times, that is part of a parent’s responsibility. Are toddlers in the USA that unruly, and are their parents that ineffective?

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes. That is exactly why one of the parishes where I work didn’t want a cry room installed. There were too many years of no sounds of children because there were no children. The sounds were welcomed because it meant to them that the parish was alive again and that there was a future. There are many babies and children there (including my own) and the parents have been very good at keeping them behaved or taking them out in the back if needed.

 

[opus101]

Well why can’t their parents keep the toddlers under control then? Set appropriate expectations for their behaviour in Church and punish them afterwards if they don’t keep to these expectations? There are a great many parents who have well-behaved toddlers at Mass. It is not unreasonable to expect parents to expect their toddlers to behave at Mass, and to use their parental authority to enforce this. Toddlers do not have a right to behave like this, and parents do not have a right ignore their parental responsibilities through not exercising proper control over their children.

As for babies? So what if a little baby cries occasionally. If it gets too much then the parent can go for a short break outside the church while she calms the baby.

I just think it is bizarre that some people now seem to expect toddlers to misbehave and that it is somehow not possible for a parent to control this. Hard as it might be at times, that is part of a parent’s responsibility. Are toddlers in the USA that unruly, and are their parents that ineffective?

I have similar questions. It seems that some parents (certainly not all) actually expect their children to be unable to learn the type of behavior required at Mass. They don’t even give them a chance to learn, through trial and error (by correction). Many come to Mass armed with backpacks full of toys and snacks, and even play with their kids during the Holy Sacrifice! The message that this sends is “Please behave, but if you can’t, we’ll have a little snack party and playtime.” …instead of “Please behave, and if you can’t, you will have to learn to.”

One of these approaches points to the real significance of the Mass, and how it is different from visiting Gramma. In life, there are different situations which require different sets of behavior.

 

[jim1130]

Our parish cry room has been taken over by mostly elderly, dour people who make it clear that crying infants are not welcome. I believe this may be because the acoustics in the church proper make it hard to hear for some people, and the speaker system may make it easier for them to hear the Mass in the cry room, but as our parish priest has recently made it clear that unruly (that is, nonsilent) children are not welcome, it has become an issue for the mothers of babies and toddlers.

Complicating the issue is that our parish priest has also begun to single out parishioners whose lives believes he must criticise publicly–these parishioners have also begun attending in the cry room as a sort of “Catholic time out” or room of shame (the ones that haven’t simply stopped attending.

What many of us have begun to do is go every other week, switching off which parent attends. (We take our older children and leave the baby). Our parish priest appears to have noticed this trend, because he has tken to reminding the parish every week that not attending Sunday Mass is a mortal sin. We live in a rural area, so changing to a parish would necessitate a long drive.

What is the right thing to do in this situation?

Seems like a simple answer: Cry room is for families with small children and/or disruptive children. Rather than place an age limit, sufficie to say maybe toddlers and below.

Now, the other question: What is wrong with Parish priests these days? Mass is not about them. I tire at my home Parish with the nagging negativity of the Pastor. I do not mind constructive criticims, byt the random rants that hold Parishoners hostage in the pews is ridiculous. The Priest is NOT the star of the Mass and maybe it is high time they realized it.

 

[dshix]

:yup:

I’ve always said that a parish devoid of crying and laughing children is a parish that will be empty all too quickly.

That is a non-sequitur. At my parish, parents actually have guts. (Isn’t that shocking?) They actually restrain their kids and force them to behave in Mass. You know what? The church always full of people, and the vast majority of the members are families.

To say that it is impossible to cause a toddler to behave is to be ignorant of the abilities of discipline.

 

[nickybr38]

That is a non-sequitur. At my parish, parents actually have guts. (Isn’t that shocking?) They actually restrain their kids and force them to behave in Mass. You know what? The church always full of people, and the vast majority of the members are families.

To say that it is impossible to cause a toddler to behave is to be ignorant of the abilities of discipline.

Thems fighting words!!!

 

[Brendan_64]

They don’t even give them a chance to learn, through trial and error (by correction). Many come to Mass armed with backpacks full of toys and snacks, and even play with their kids during the Holy Sacrifice!

It is extremely annoying when a child is in the pew in front of you playing with his toy cars along the pew, making ‘vroom’ noises and generally acting like he’s at home in his front room, even banging into you as you knell and pray. And if you ask him to stop, or even give him a ‘look’, the dagger looks you will get from the Mum with a response along the lines of, “He’s only a child”. You feel like saying. “Yes, and he’s your child, so take some responsibility and control his behaviour”.

 

[Sarabande]

No one ever seems to really address this much, but it seems that many people in the past didn’t bring their young children to mass. My grandmother (she’s in her 80s now) has told me that when she was younger and bringing up her 6 children, you very rarely saw babies or small children at mass. Parents and/or other family members took turns watching them. This was in the U.S., so it could have been different in other countries. Other people have expressed the same experiences from that time period. It was apparently the same for them when they, themselves, were children. When did it become more common to bring young children and babies to mass? The 1980s? Earlier? I grew up in the 80s and 90s so I remember children and babies at mass.

I’m not advocating that people go back to that, but I wonder if the reason for it in the past was because they didn’t want any sounds at mass.

 

[CradleJourney]

It is extremely annoying when a child is in the pew in front of you playing with his toy cars along the pew, making ‘vroom’ noises and generally acting like he’s at home in his front room, even banging into you as you knell and pray. And if you ask him to stop, or even give him a ‘look’, the dagger looks you will get from the Mum with a response along the lines of, “He’s only a child”. You feel like saying. “Yes, and he’s your child, so take some responsibility and control his behaviour”.

I’m sure it is annoying and I appreciate your self control.

Of course the real problem here is not his behavior - his behavior is, in fact for a toddler/preschooler, quite appropriate** for the toy his parent let him bring**!

Cars should always be rolled accompanied by “vroom” noises - so they shouldn’t be taken into church. I think we need to slip some “parenting tips” into the bulletin including the idea that even if the toy itself doesn’t make noise, having softer, quieter toys (or my preference books with the sliding tabs in them) equals quieter calmer play (mostly).

And under no circumstance should any child, bang, bump, or poke anyone else - if church is that crowded, I would take mine and stand in the rear - because small children do wiggle. And if it’s not that crowded, even very young they can learn to stay in their “space” without touching other people.

In return for keeping my children/grandchildren of all ages under control though - could I please beg the nice women who sit in the pew in front of me to not leave her large purse wide open on the seat? Very difficult to keep the little one’s fingers from finding their way through the pew opening (ours are not solid across the back) and getting ahold of the chapsticks/keys/etc. sitting right there in front of their nose?

 

[Brendan_64]

Well when I was growing up as a child in Ireland in the 60’s and 70’s children did go to Mass with their parents. The whole family went together from youngest to oldest, but as child then you didn’t dare misbehave. I could imagine the wrath that would follow from my Mum if I behaved inappropriately, even as a very young child, at Mass. We knew what was expected and what the consequences would be if we didn’t behave, so we never once played up in Mass.

Children misbehave at Mass because their parents don’t believe in setting strict boundaries and disciplining their children.

 

[SMHW]

No one ever seems to really address this much, but it seems that many people in the past didn’t bring their young children to mass. My grandmother (she’s in her 80s now) has told me that when she was younger and bringing up her 6 children, you very rarely saw babies or small children at mass. Parents and/or other family members took turns watching them. This was in the U.S., so it could have been different in other countries. Other people have expressed the same experiences from that time period. It was apparently the same for them when they, themselves, were children. When did it become more common to bring young children and babies to mass? The 1980s? Earlier? I grew up in the 80s and 90s so I remember children and babies at mass.

I’m not advocating that people go back to that, but I wonder if the reason for it in the past was because they didn’t want any sounds at mass.

My parents usually went to separate Masses when I was young. (I was the oldest.) They did not regularly take me to Mass until I was in the first grade. That would have been in the Fall of 1964. Coincidentally that was around the time that Masses started being in English. I remember my Catholic school teacher say we first graders HAD to go to Mass and hearing my parents say it was not required since I was not yet seven years old (although they did take me.) They still usually attended separate Masses and did not take my younger siblings.

I think things changed when the third child started started school. At that point there were more of us who needed to be at Mass than could be left at home so we all went, including the youngest ones.

There were still plenty of families where everyone went to Mass together, even when I was in the First Grade. But I think there was a big change by the time the 1960s ended.

 

[Sarabande]

My parents usually went to separate Masses when I was young. (I was the oldest.) They did not regularly take me to Mass until I was in the first grade. That would have been in the Fall of 1964. Coincidentally that was around the time that Masses started being in English. I remember my Catholic school teacher say we first graders HAD to go to Mass and hearing my parents say it was not required since I was not yet seven years old (although they did take me.) They still usually attended separate Masses and did not take my younger siblings.

I think things changed when the third child started started school. At that point there were more of us who needed to be at Mass than could be left at home so we all went, including the youngest ones.

There were still plenty of families where everyone went to Mass together, even when I was in the First Grade. But I think there was a big change by the time the 1960s ended.

Thank you for relating your experience with this. Do you think the big change occurred because the mass was said in the vernacular at that point? Was it something else? When I asked my grandmother why the families did this, she said it just was the way it was back then. She didn’t really know a reason why, although she was of that mindset that it was crazy to bring babies and young children to mass back then. Not that people didn’t bring babies every once in a while. My grandparents did go with their first baby, but even then, the priests at the parish would actually take turns watching him, pushing him in the pram either outside or in the sacristy while mass was going on. So, he was never actually at mass. This was back in the mid-1940s.

It’s interesting that you mentioned that you were told that you had to start attending mass in first grade. My grandmother said that it was always taught that the age of reason was 7, so that was when their children and the children of other families would usually start attending mass as well. This was the baby boom. My dad had 100 kids in a classroom in gradeschool and graduated in a class of 800 at his Catholic high school.

Now, even if people were bringing their kids and babies to mass back then, knowing how strict my grandparents were and how well they disciplined, they would have kept the kids in check at mass. Perhaps in some parishes, there is a change in how parents discipline their children at mass today. In the two parishes where I work, the parents correct their children very well, so I don’t think it’s everywhere. I always remember my mother giving us the eye or a little pinch on the arm or leg whenever we did anything out of place - whether at mass or somewhere else. My dad would take my sister outside or to the vestibule every once in a while if she acted up, but even my wildly willful sister was eventually tamed. It took a lot longer than it did my brother and I, but they had expectations with behaviour and they had to persevere. They didn’t want her to turn into a monster, so-to-speak.

 

[Sarabande]

Well when I was growing up as a child in Ireland in the 60’s and 70’s children did go to Mass with their parents. The whole family went together from youngest to oldest, but as child then you didn’t dare misbehave. I could imagine the wrath that would follow from my Mum if I behaved inappropriately, even as a very young child, at Mass. We knew what was expected and what the consequences would be if we didn’t behave, so we never once played up in Mass.

Children misbehave at Mass because their parents don’t believe in setting strict boundaries and disciplining their children.

I agree with this. I think it’s also important to mention that even parents with strict boundaries can/will have willful children. The difference is that when the child is being willful and misbehaves, there might be a little noise at first, BUT the parent handles it as quickly as possible… either giving them the eye that if they continue, there will be hell to pay after mass, or taking them out of the church to reprimand.

I remember when my daughter was still just over a year old and walking, we had her at mass and she was out of control. It was probably one of the first times we had to deal with her trying to test us and push buttons at mass. It was really unusual and we were completely green and didn’t know how to handle the discipline. We sat in the very back pew and she would not stay still. We took her out of mass a few times and corrected her.

When it was my turn, again, to take her out and she was still acting up, I had had it. We tried everything to make her behave. I then realized what we were doing wrong. Every time we took her out of the church, she thought it was a free ticket to walk and have fun, even though we were reprimanding her. She didn’t care about the reprimands. it meant nothing to her at the time. So, I made my voice low, stern and barely audible, looked her right in the eyes, reprimanded her, BUT I also made her stand in the corner and she wasn’t allowed to move. I told her that if she had behaved herself at mass, she wouldn’t have to stand here facing the wall and every time she didn’t listen to Mommy or Daddy and didn’t behave at mass, this is where she would go. No walking around outside or in the vestibule. Just standing silently with nothing to look at but a boring wall. That worked for the rest of the mass. We didn’t have to take her out again that Sunday and she has been fairly good since we’ve gotten to know and understand her personality and what works well for her discipline-wise. Every once in a while, she’ll be in an awful mood, but we handle it. It seems to be all trial and error - especially for the first one.