WHo is the cry room for?

[Joe_5859]

Just sayin… I find it curious that my sister’s kids, who have never been given toys or books in Mass can sit quietly (despite being high strung kids in every other situation) but my friends kids (same age) even with their books and toys act up all throughout Mass.

I’m not a parent though so I hesitate to make any harsh judgments. I just see a direct correlation there (especially since the kids are the same ages).

Just to play devil’s advocate (), correlation may not imply causation in this situatiion. If your kids are well-behaved at Mass ordinarily, you never need to resort to such things. If you find they won’t stay quiet, then you might try anything you can think of to get them to calm down. So the toys could be a symptom of the misbehavior, not the cause. Then again, they might not.

I think it’s vastly preferable for kids to learn to behave at Mass without needing to distract them with other things. But I know all kids are different, so I try not to tsk tsk those who do. My son has occassionally grabbed a toy at home and refused to let it go as we go to Mass. He’s autistic, though. I could take the toy away, but I guarantee it would be more distracting.

When my daughter was younger, she was always pretty good at Mass unless there was a kid in the pew in front of us who had a coloring book or a toy. Then she wanted one, too.

Ah, the joys of parenthood. If getting our kids to behave at Mass it the worst thing we have to worry about, we should consider ourselves greatly blessed.

 

[nickybr38]

Just to play devil’s advocate (), correlation may not imply causation in this situatiion. If your kids are well-behaved at Mass ordinarily, you never need to resort to such things. If you find they won’t stay quiet, then you might try anything you can think of to get them to calm down. So the toys could be a symptom of the misbehavior, not the cause. Then again, they might not.

I think it’s vastly preferable for kids to learn to behave at Mass without needing to distract them with other things. But I know all kids are different, so I try not to tsk tsk those who do. My son has occassionally grabbed a toy at home and refused to let it go as we go to Mass. He’s autistic, though. I could take the toy away, but I guarantee it would be more distracting.

When my daughter was younger, she was always pretty good at Mass unless there was a kid in the pew in front of us who had a coloring book or a toy. Then she wanted one, too.

Ah, the joys of parenthood. If getting our kids to behave at Mass it the worst thing we have to worry about, we should consider ourselves greatly blessed.

I personally love kids at Mass. I love hearing their silly little comments. Love hearing them laugh. And when they cry I always think: Ah man. That poor parent. Not: How distracting!

I get distracted all on my own. I don’t blame anyone but myself.

 

[SMHW]

Thank you for relating your experience with this. Do you think the big change occurred because the mass was said in the vernacular at that point? Was it something else? When I asked my grandmother why the families did this, she said it just was the way it was back then. She didn’t really know a reason why, although she was of that mindset that it was crazy to bring babies and young children to mass back then. Not that people didn’t bring babies every once in a while. My grandparents did go with their first baby, but even then, the priests at the parish would actually take turns watching him, pushing him in the pram either outside or in the sacristy while mass was going on. So, he was never actually at mass. This was back in the mid-1940s.

Until I typed up my previous post it had never occurred to me that the language of the the Mass might have played a role in whether or not parents brought young children to Mass. I have to think it is a factor. It is my understanding that the so-called dialog Masses (which began to occur in the earlier 20th century) were more common in some places than in others. I would tend to guess that those might have played an even more important role in parents bringing children to Mass. If all people did was kneel quietly and pray the rosary while the priest and the altar servers handled everything else why would you bother to bring a young child? When the idea came along that people are supposed to actively (as opposed to passively) participate my guess is that parents started thinking the kids need to be part of this too.

Now I also think there is a cultural aspect to this. Some cultures put more emphasis on the individual’s duties to the Church and others more on the family’s duty. The Germans and Irish tended to be rather rule oriented. You went to Mass, your duty was done. You didn’t really have a huge duty to see that your spouse and older children went to Mass. You might tell them and nag them but you didn’t imagine God holding you responsible for the failings of your family. I think there were other cultures where people almost saw themselves as proxy Mass attendees on behalf of their stay-at-home relatives.

I got the impression when I was young that my parents didn’t really see attending Mass with each other to be of any special importance. (That is obviously the view of a child; take it for what it is worth.)

It’s interesting that you mentioned that you were told that you had to start attending mass in first grade. My grandmother said that it was always taught that the age of reason was 7, so that was when their children and the children of other families would usually start attending mass as well. This was the baby boom. My dad had 100 kids in a classroom in gradeschool and graduated in a class of 800 at his Catholic high school.

I think the reason my teacher said first graders should be at Mass was because we were preparing for First Communion. And I imagine some of the first graders were already seven years old. Certainly many would be seven before the school year was over. The teacher had to treat us all the same. In my early years of Catholic school we went to Mass every day so it’s not like we were strangers to Mass.

Now, even if people were bringing their kids and babies to mass back then, knowing how strict my grandparents were and how well they disciplined, they would have kept the kids in check at mass. Perhaps in some parishes, there is a change in how parents discipline their children at mass today. In the two parishes where I work, the parents correct their children very well, so I don’t think it’s everywhere. I always remember my mother giving us the eye or a little pinch on the arm or leg whenever we did anything out of place - whether at mass or somewhere else. My dad would take my sister outside or to the vestibule every once in a while if she acted up, but even my wildly willful sister was eventually tamed. It took a lot longer than it did my brother and I, but they had expectations with behaviour and they had to persevere. They didn’t want her to turn into a monster, so-to-speak.

The expectations for behavior were much higher back then. But as I’ve suggested elsewhere in this thread, the expectations for behavior tended to be stricter outside of Mass too.

 

[Joe_5859]

I personally love kids at Mass. I love hearing their silly little comments. Love hearing them laugh. And when they cry I always think: Ah man. That poor parent. Not: How distracting!

I get distracted all on my own. I don’t blame anyone but myself.

Too true. I get plenty distracted without any children present at all. Sometimes, I think that focusing on whatever random thing happens to be distracting us as though it is the root cause of our distraction is actually an additional distraction.

There will always be reasons to be distracted. And we will always be prone to be distracted by them. The key is to find a constructive way to deal with it, and not to get further distracted.

 

[Evania]

Brendan, the point of my post is to not let every little thing bother you and distract you from the Mass. You aren’t there to police other people and judge. Nine times out of ten, if a parent notices that their child is being too loud, they will shush them or momentarily take them outside to correct them. You glaring at a child for having a toy that their parent allowed them to bring is ridiculous.

 

[Evania]

Too true. I get plenty distracted without any children present at all. Sometimes, I think that focusing on whatever random thing happens to be distracting us as though it is the root cause of our distraction is actually an additional distraction.

There will always be reasons to be distracted. And we will always be prone to be distracted by them. The key is to find a constructive way to deal with it, and not to get further distracted.

Very good point!

 

[Brendan_64]

Until I typed up my previous post it had never occurred to me that the language of the the Mass might have played a role in whether or not parents brought young children to Mass. I have to think it is a factor.

I don’t think so. Those of us who grew up in the late 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s grew up with Mass said in the vernacular. Kids were all brought to Mass with their parents and behaviour was certainly a lot better than it is now, and no toys or books. You sat in silence, and even a bit of fidgeting or shuffling about would have resulted in a clip around the ear. And, as soon as you were physically able to, you kneeled, sat and stood at the appropriate times during the Mass. I could imagine the response of my Mum if I had insisted on bringing a toy to Mass back then. Even as a child I would not even have considered bringing a toy to Mass, it was just so alien to what was expected.

 

[Evania]

So I guess when you kneel and pray, you are wishing that the parents would give their kid a clip around the ear at the slightest sound or fidget? That should teach them to love the Church all right… No wonder so many in that generation have grown to leave the Church.You do realize that there has been a marked rise in vocations in the last decade, right? I think parents today are doing just fine.

 

[MSSheBear]

I don’t think so. Those of us who grew up in the late 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s grew up with Mass said in the vernacular. Kids were all brought to Mass with their parents and behaviour was certainly a lot better than it is now, and no toys or books. You sat in silence, and even a bit of fidgeting or shuffling about would have resulted in a clip around the ear. And, as soon as you were physically able to, you kneeled, sat and stood at the appropriate times during the Mass. I could imagine the response of my Mum if I had insisted on bringing a toy to Mass back then. Even as a child I would not even have considered bringing a toy to Mass, it was just so alien to what was expected.

Those of us who grew up before about 1975 were expected to behave better. I work with children and it is amazing what sort of behavior children can get away with. Having a full-blown temper tantrum in a public place at the age of six would have resulted painful consequences when I was young. In the Protestant churches I attended before I converted many parents were adamant that their toddlers would attend as much of the worship service as they could much to the surprise of the church leadership. Guess what, those toddlers learned to behave in church. The ones sent straight to the nursery did not.

The parish I am at now is very family friendly. Our Masses can be noisy but usually the most disruptive people are the adults.

 

[Brendan_64]

You do realize that there has been a marked rise in vocations in the last decade, right? I think parents today are doing just fine.

Has there? There hasn’t in the UK anyway. There has been a serious decline in vocations here. Maybe parents over here aren’t giving their kids enough toys to play with during Mass? Yeah, that must be the reason.

 

[Evania]

If they aren’t it’s probably people like you who “encourage” them to leave. It’s hard to imagine Jesus taking a stance like “clipping them around the ear” if they dare fidget. In fact, the gospels tell us otherwise…

Lighten up

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t think so. Those of us who grew up in the late 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s grew up with Mass said in the vernacular. Kids were all brought to Mass with their parents and behaviour was certainly a lot better than it is now, and no toys or books. You sat in silence, and even a bit of fidgeting or shuffling about would have resulted in a clip around the ear. And, as soon as you were physically able to, you kneeled, sat and stood at the appropriate times during the Mass. I could imagine the response of my Mum if I had insisted on bringing a toy to Mass back then. Even as a child I would not even have considered bringing a toy to Mass, it was just so alien to what was expected.

I think you missed the point of that post. My question to SMHW was in reference to the change when parents began to bring their young children to mass once it was switched to the vernacular and allowed for more “active” participation rather than “passive” participation. SMHW had mentioned prior that they were not brought to mass when they were very young as well. Before that, as SMHW described, the mass often required kneeling in silence, no dialoguing occurred amongst the congregation and where many people prayed the rosary during the mass. My grandmother up until the 1990s still would finish praying the rosary during mass if she didn’t finish it before mass began. It was a hard habit to break for her. So it might have been a reason, at least in certain areas in the States, that many parents did not bring their young children or babies to mass. It appears from what I’m reading, that this practice changed in the mid to late 60s which was around the time that mass in the vernacular came to be. And it would make more sense why families began to attend mass together rather than separately.

 

[SMHW]

I don’t think so. Those of us who grew up in the late 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s grew up with Mass said in the vernacular. Kids were all brought to Mass with their parents and behaviour was certainly a lot better than it is now, and no toys or books. You sat in silence, and even a bit of fidgeting or shuffling about would have resulted in a clip around the ear. And, as soon as you were physically able to, you kneeled, sat and stood at the appropriate times during the Mass. I could imagine the response of my Mum if I had insisted on bringing a toy to Mass back then. Even as a child I would not even have considered bringing a toy to Mass, it was just so alien to what was expected.

I wasn’t addressing behavior. I was addressing parents taking children to Mass as opposed to leaving them at home (by having adults take turns going to Mass.)

And my point was that I suspect MORE people brought children to Mass once it became normal for the congregation to speak the responses rather than just watch what was going on. (Unless it was a sung Mass there was not really anything to hear since the priest and servers spoke rather inaudibly.)

The time frame you mention was obviously after it was understood that the people were to ACTIVELY participate in the Mass so they started taking the children with them so the children could also participate.

I think the 1950s was about the time that family Mass attendance *started *to become common. In the 1950s it was becoming the norm to speak the responses (in Latin of course.) By 1970 it was the norm to speak the responses. (However that is also when many parishes started having programs to take children back out of the Mass. But at least the children were supposed to be learning about their Faith.)​

On a slightly different topic… I can’t remember if my sister (born in 1964) ever attended any preschool program during Mass. I’m thinking no. But by the time my youngest brother was born (1969) I know that our parish had a preschool program for 3 and 4 year olds. (Maybe age five too?) I know that my brother would go to that.

 

[Sarabande]

Until I typed up my previous post it had never occurred to me that the language of the the Mass might have played a role in whether or not parents brought young children to Mass. I have to think it is a factor. It is my understanding that the so-called dialog Masses (which began to occur in the earlier 20th century) were more common in some places than in others. I would tend to guess that those might have played an even more important role in parents bringing children to Mass. If all people did was kneel quietly and pray the rosary while the priest and the altar servers handled everything else why would you bother to bring a young child? When the idea came along that people are supposed to actively (as opposed to passively) participate my guess is that parents started thinking the kids need to be part of this too.

That seems like a good a factor for the practice to change. It would make sense not to bring your younger children to mass when it was completely silent (no “active” participation). The first time I ever attended a low mass in my 20s, I had no idea that it would be completely silent… no responses, not even hearing the priest. It was complete internal silent prayer and meditation. I finally understood why my grandmother and so many of the older women in the parish used to pray their rosaries during mass. I just thought they were good at multi-tasking (and they probably were. )

Now I also think there is a cultural aspect to this. Some cultures put more emphasis on the individual’s duties to the Church and others more on the family’s duty. The Germans and Irish tended to be rather rule oriented. You went to Mass, your duty was done. You didn’t really have a huge duty to see that your spouse and older children went to Mass. You might tell them and nag them but you didn’t imagine God holding you responsible for the failings of your family. I think there were other cultures where people almost saw themselves as proxy Mass attendees on behalf of their stay-at-home relatives.

This could be true. My Grandmother is of Irish/English heritage and my Grandfather was a German protestant with that stereotypical German Protestant work ethic. (He was also a marine and everything had to be done strictly by the book.) My other grandparents were of completely Filipino/Spanish/Chinese heritage, so the way they practiced their faith is very different from how my Irish/English grandmother practiced it. Imagine how crazy it was to my mother’s culture butt heads with my father’s. It proved for interesting times in our family. lol!

I got the impression when I was young that my parents didn’t really see attending Mass with each other to be of any special importance. (That is obviously the view of a child; take it for what it is worth.)

Honestly, I have the impression from my grandmother that she (and apparently many others during her time) also didn’t view attending mass as a family important, either. Even now, as much as she loves having her great-grandchildren at mass with her and loves seeing other children at mass, she is also one of the first to tell us to leave them home if one or both are being ornery or out-of-sorts and just go to a later mass. And she will always bring up that they have not reached the age of reason, so they would not be committing a mortal sin. I will add that my grandmother is very devout. She is just stuck in her ways of how things used to be.

The expectations for behavior were much higher back then. But as I’ve suggested elsewhere in this thread, the expectations for behavior tended to be stricter outside of Mass too.

I completely agree with this. There seemed to be more hard lines drawn back then of what was appropriate and inappropriate in behaviour, decorum, attire, manners, etc. Today, the lines in all aspects of life seem to be blurred or softened, for good and for bad. So, this may also be a factor as to why some parents don’t know how to handle their children in certain situations. So much is stressed on informality, that many don’t know how to act or train their children in more “formal” situations, like mass.

 

[Brendan_64]

If they aren’t it’s probably people like you who “encourage” them to leave. It’s hard to imagine Jesus taking a stance like “clipping them around the ear” if they dare fidget. In fact, the gospels tell us otherwise…

Lighten up

So you reckon then that, it would have been acceptable for kids to bring ‘toys’ into the synagogue to play with. back when Jesus was a lad?

 

[SMHW]

So you reckon then that, it would have been acceptable for kids to bring ‘toys’ into the synagogue to play with. back when Jesus was a lad?

Did mothers bring very young children to synagogue? I honestly don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that women typically stayed home when their babies were young and when they were older left them in the care of older sisters, aunts, and cousins. (A seven year old girl was probably considered to be a capable baby sitter.)

When young boys (under age five or so) were brought to synagogue they probably stayed with the women rather than with the men. I don’t know how that worked. Were the men on one side and the women on another? Were the men in front and the women behind?

 

[Evania]

So you reckon then that, it would have been acceptable for kids to bring ‘toys’ into the synagogue to play with. back when Jesus was a lad?

If they did, I would guess that Jesus wouldn’t have given them a dirty look. You’ll be happier if you didn’t focus so much on other people.

 

[Sarabande]

Did mothers bring very young children to synagogue? I honestly don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that women typically stayed home when their babies were young and when they were older left them in the care of older sisters, aunts, and cousins. (A seven year old girl was probably considered to be a capable baby sitter.)

When young boys (under age five or so) were brought to synagogue they probably stayed with the women rather than with the men. I don’t know how that worked. Were the men on one side and the women on another? Were the men in front and the women behind?

From what my former voice teacher has told me (she is a devout Jew, is a trained Jewish cantor, as well as trains the bar and bat mitvah kids in Hebrew chant, prepares them with their prayers, etc.), children were not required to attend services at the synogogues. It wasn’t until they were Bar or Bat mitvahed (around 12 or 13) were they required to attend and observe the commandments and such. So, from what she understands, children and babies really didn’t attend much. Also women and men sat in separate areas.

Not that this gives anyone an excuse to let their kids go wild and crazy at mass or that we should go back to attending mass without our young children, but our worship history and even the history of the Jewish worship, should give some perspective and understanding of what was expected in the past. They might have had complete quiet because there really weren’t any young children or babies around as they were not expected to be there. Today, because having families attend mass together as a family is encouraged and enjoyed, you have to expect some sounds and noise - within reason. A baby begins to cry - a parent quickly tries to hush him. A toddler starts to have a temper tantrum, you will hear that child while the parent quickly takes that child out of the church to calm them down and reprimand. To expect more than that tells me that someone either had naturally good children through hardly any work of their own (hWich is possible. I know children or were like that from the day they were born and parents joke about never really knowing what it was like to have typical kids until they had additional children who were not a piece of cake) or were never a parent.

 

[babochka]

I thought of the people on this thread this morning (and prayed for you all). Some of you would have been quite unhappy in my church this morning. You see, we have the wonderful blessing in our small parish that children (almost all under 10 years old) outnumber adults. We had a particularly long liturgy this morning: Father started a few minutes late, we had a special veneration of the Holy Cross, the homily went on and on (it was very good) and, as we are in the Great Fast, so longer liturgy of St. Basil the Great was prayed. It started (or was supposed to start) at 10:00 and ended at 11:57. My little guy (2) decided to say, over and over again “Mama, mama, mama, mama…” for a very long time. Due to this, I was standing in the vestibule for most of the liturgy, so I had a unique view of the revolving door as parents exited with restless toddlers, attempted to return, only to have to exit a few minutes later. We even had one toddler, not quite two, throw a tantrum in the communion line. Mom did her best, but she’s pregnant and was holding the 9-month-old baby in her arms. Where was dad? He was dealing with three year old in a bathroom emergency. ( Her 5 and 7 year old children were extremely well behaved, by the way). God Bless her and give her the strength to get through this pregnancy and care for 3 children under 2. It was a bit crazy, even for our parish, but we persevered.

For those of you who get upset when children make noise and parents don’t do the best job dealing with it, please take a few moments to pray for us. I haven’t really been able to pray in church for 10 years. As a mother, I have to be vigilant about the behavior of my children and attentive to their needs, even if I’d rather immerse myself in the liturgy. I didn’t know that I would be called to make that sacrifice when my first child was born, but that is the sacrifice that I am indeed making.

I’ve been trying to sneak out of the house and make a 6:30 am daily Mass lately. I’ve yet to make it alone, because my movements around the house invariably wake one of the younger children, so I have to take somebody with me. It’s ok. It is a season of life, and I know that my season to have little ones is coming to an end. I hope and pray that, in a few years, when my perfectly behaved teenagers and older children are lined up in a row, devoutly praying (or at least not being disruptive) that I will remember these years of crying babies, fussy toddlers, and trips to the bathroom for little ones who have not yet gained the skills to “hold it”.

 

[Spudbynight]

I had never heard of a “cry room” until reading this thread.

We have some noisy children in our parish. Our priest tries to encourage them to sit at the front of the church. Without fail they all become quieter when at the front compared to at the back.