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Beaver
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This is the best of arguments. But who told us that there was only two Adams. Assuming there is only two is asking to much from the text. What about four or five or six Adams leading to best and Last, Jesus.
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Beaver
Guest
A guard fails when he loses that inwhich he has to guard. Did the first Adam loses his wife when he failed or was his wife at his side. The title of the exortation is “Guardian of the Redeemer” not, guardian of the wife.
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Beaver
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Chris_W
Guest
Perhaps I’m looking at this too simply, but it is through the first Adam that we all take our human nature, and also through him Original Sin was passed on to all mankind. Part of who we are came from Adam.
Jesus is called the New Adam because He is the fulfillment of the first Adam. We get our divine nature through Him and the ability to overcome sin. Man takes his human nature from Adam and divine nature from the New Adam, Jesus Christ.
This fits. It makes sense. Just like through the first Adam, so much more through the New Adam.
What nature do we all take from Joseph?
If we do not take nature from Jospeph, how is he the New Adam? There is no hereditary link. If he is merely* like* Adam in a certain aspect, (considering his responsibility or duty), well then many people can be considered adams in that way, and the significance of the understanding about The New Adam vanishes, I think. You could say Joseph was a kind of adam, priests are a kind of adam, martyrs are a kind of adam, Catholics in general who cherish, honor, and defend God, are a kind of adam, and so on.
Jesus is called the New Adam because He is the fulfillment of the first Adam. We get our divine nature through Him and the ability to overcome sin. Man takes his human nature from Adam and divine nature from the New Adam, Jesus Christ.
This fits. It makes sense. Just like through the first Adam, so much more through the New Adam.
What nature do we all take from Joseph?
If we do not take nature from Jospeph, how is he the New Adam? There is no hereditary link. If he is merely* like* Adam in a certain aspect, (considering his responsibility or duty), well then many people can be considered adams in that way, and the significance of the understanding about The New Adam vanishes, I think. You could say Joseph was a kind of adam, priests are a kind of adam, martyrs are a kind of adam, Catholics in general who cherish, honor, and defend God, are a kind of adam, and so on.
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FCEGM
Guest
Neither Scripture nor Sacred Tradition present us with more than two Adams and those are identified in both as the first man, Adam, and the New Adam, Christ. To read into the Holy Father’s Encyclical any more than that is to allow one’s own mis-readings and musings to lead one away from the Catholic Church’s teaching.
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NotWorthy
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Jesus was the New Adam.
Jesus, like Adam before, is tested in a garden, the garden of Gethsemane. But where Adam takes the easy way out and eats the apple, Jesus calls on the Lord when he is tempted. When Jesus is praying to the Father for strength to accept the bitter cup of suffering, He prays so intensely that “his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down upon the ground” (Lk. 22:44). As one of the curses for his Original Sin, Adam would labor by “the sweat of (his) face” (Gen. 3:19). Luke carefully points out how the beads of Jesus’ blood fall down upon the ground, the ground which was cursed because of Adam. In fact, part of Adam’s curse is that the ground would bring up thorns (Gen. 3:18), and significantly enough Jesus is crowned with thorns (cf. Mt. 27:29; Mk. 15:17). Jesus takes up the agony of Adam through the pain of His Passion. The story of Adam includes the tragic tale of exile from Eden. This exile from paradise, which is part of the curse upon Adam, is overcome by Jesus’ new exodus. Jesus’ dialogue with the criminal on the cross, the "good thief," alludes to this new exodus to the new Eden. The good thief cries out from his cross in faith, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power” (Lk. 23:42). The reward for the faith of the criminal is clear, as on the Cross Jesus promises the criminal, “***Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” ***(Lk. 23:43). The word “paradise” is only used two other times in the New Testament. Paul uses it to describe heaven (2 Cor. 12:3), and it is used in Revelation to describe heaven as the new Garden of Eden that Jesus promises to those who persevere in faithfulness: “To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God” (Rev. 2:7). Jesus completes on the Cross the return from the ultimate exile, the exile from the Father. With Jesus’ last breath on the Cross, the exile from Eden ends, and heaven is reopened to the descendants of Adam.
The ultimate curse incurred by Adam is death: “You are dust, and to dust you shall return” (Gen. 3:19). Jesus takes this curse upon Himself by dying on the Cross and being buried in the tomb. Paradoxically, Jesus’ death brings life to all of Adam’s descendants. Adam had been banished from the garden and its tree of life, but now Jesus makes the wood of the Cross the new tree of life, the fruit of which is taken up in the Passover cup, the cup of His blood. For those who drink and eat of Jesus’ body and blood, the fruit of the new tree of life, death is defeated and Eden opened. Jesus takes the curses upon Himself, but at a high price.
Notworthy
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Beaver
Guest
Chris W:
I like your response, but remember we are told bible stories are recreation stories. Stories in which the hero trust God. Each hero is a new Adam or Eve, for the creation story creates Adam and Eve, who did not trust God.
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Beaver
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I agree in the finality of the Last Adam, Jesus the one who completes all things and completely defines trust in God and in no way I will disregaurd His accompishments.
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Beaver
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I did not know that the church taught that the stories of the bible like the story of Noah, were not recreation stories. Was not this Noah’s trust in God, a heros story. The first Adam did not trust God but we have hero stories through out the bible of people who have and each story encourages us to trust God too. Are you saying that these heros are not new Adams. In recreation is not the Adam recreated too. In the church these heros are called foreshadowings of Christ. Do you reject this?
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Chris_W
Guest
Now I think we may be close to agreement, Beaver. This may be a matter of the terms used in this discussion. When you speak of foreshadowing, that makes good sense. Many apologists describes types of Mary too. For example, Jahel in the old testament crushing the head of the enemy was a* type* of Mary (the New Eve), so Jahel foreshadowed The Woman who was the fulfillment. In a similar way there may be many examples of types of Adam forshadowing the fulfillment in The New Adam.
The objections herein to your calling Joseph the New Adam, I think, are objections to the impression that you are giving the title appropriate only for Jesus Christ to another person. Whereas, if you will call Joseph “a type of Adam”, I for one would not object. Jesus Christ is The New Adam, just as Mary is The New Eve, while there may be many examples of other people who were types of both.
Peace,
Chris W
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Chris_W
Guest
In addition to my last post, I would also add that I think you are creating a title that is not understood from the Bible or tradition (so far as I am aware) in your use of the term the “Last Adam.” There may be inferred implications to this new title which you may not foresee, which may be why the Church does not use the title, even though your intent in using it may be correct.
For example, just as there were perhaps many types of Adam preceding the New Adam (Jesus), one might argue there have* since* been many types of Adam as well (i.e. priests). But when you say the “Last Adam” this may affect the appropriate regard for priest as well.
My point is, the Church has always understood Jesus as the New Adam, and I think its best to stick with that understanding. I think you could make your points about Joseph just as well by describing him as a type of Adam or perhaps even merely describing the concept of his “protecting the Real Presence” without the use of any new title at all. Whereas to create a new title for Jesus so as to give Joseph the title traditionally given to Jesus, unnecessarily complicates things.
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steve99
Guest
Chris W:
Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. (1 Cor 15:45-47)
It is biblical
Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. (1 Cor 15:45-47)
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Chris_W
Guest
Thanks for the correction. Okay. Does my point still stand though about others being perhaps * types* of Adam but without such a title?
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Beaver
Guest
Chris W:
I will agree to this. Thanks…
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Kristina_P
Guest
Glad to see you understand Christianity better than St. Paul. Sorry to be so sarcastic about it, but you’re denying Scripture here to make a rather outlandish point.
Ah… read the rest of the thread. Thanks for clarifying.
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Beaver
Guest
Chris W:
Chris you bring up an interesting topic. What was it that made Saint Joseph afraid? It could not of been that he touched the Arc of the Covenant for that he had done and he still lived, no it was the fact he was a priest. The problem we must solve is he was not of the tribe of Levi, so how could this be a priest? Well it is because Jesus is the Real Presence and again like the first Adam, he could enter into the seventh day rest. This means the priestly line of Levi has ended, but they were a political power in Jerusalem at the time. This is why Saint Joseph was silent, it was a protection mechanism for his family. Let’s not forget the other side of the equation, Mary was the Arc of the Covenant. So when the angel of the Lord said to Saint Joseph, “Do not be afraid to take Mary as your Wife” it set up the new economy of marriage. Marriage takes on it original meaning created by God in the beginning. You have to be a priest because your spouse or spouse to be is a type of the Arc of the Covenant (2 Sam 6). Are you willing to admit this.
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Beaver
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Kristina P.:
No, I am try to wake up a sleeping giant. Maybe that giant can hurt me, but I dought it. It could not harm David. By the way your taking about one of my favorite prophets here. Grab the Prophet training manual and try again…
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Beaver
Guest
Another link to consider: myweb.tiscali.co.uk/renewaluk/gn0205/g0205se1.htm
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LSK
Guest
I agree with puzzelannie. I read the article. I see nothing to disabuse me of the teaching that Jesus Christ is the new Adam as outlined in Holy Scripture and as defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
**505 **By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. “How can this be?” Participation in the divine life arises “not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”. The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit’s gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God is fulfilled perfectly in Mary’s virginal motherhood.
**505 **By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. “How can this be?” Participation in the divine life arises “not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”. The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit’s gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God is fulfilled perfectly in Mary’s virginal motherhood.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Sometimes I think we all are the new Adam. Everyday we are brought up with a choice. Do not eat the apple and spend eternity in paradise with our Lord - or eat the apple and go through the same exile that Adam and Eve did. I know this is a pretty simple explanation, but it seems to be a warning to all of us.
Notworthy
Notworthy
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