Who is the Prophet Mohammed?

[MartinJordan]

Not on a par with Muhammad but second to him.

Jesus comes 2nd , even when he has no violence (by his hand) connected with him. Strange how that works.

MJ

 

[JakeG]

So why don’t we talk about a “Christian Muslim Tradition”?

Christianity and Islam are as far apart as Christianity and Judaism.

Muslims do not believe in a God incarnate who lived as a man, was crucified and rose from the dead. They believe Jesus never died on the cross.

There are other difficulties. Muslims believe the koran they recite today is word for word, syllable for syllable, phoneme for phoneme, identical to what Muhammad supposedly heard from an angel they call “Gibril” (Gabriel) fourteen centuries ago.

Trouble is to believe that you have to believe in a creator of the universe who would, for example, flunk geology 101 (the mountains are not pegs to stabilise the earth) and biology 101 (man was not made from a clot of blood)

In fact the whole of the koranic exposition of embryology seems to be a paraphrase of parts of the writings of the second century anatomist, Galen, who got a few things wrong.

 

[Nabooru]

One thing I’ve found out is that most Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal and, more importantly, uncreated. So although it is the literal word of God, it is not a creation of God. So did God influence the Quran, or did the Quran dictate what God would be?

Also I’ve never understood the concept of “unclean” animals. I have an idea as to why it exists in Judaism, but I won’t go into detail here about it. Islam takes it to an extreme. Muhammad said angels cannot enter a house in which a dog is present. Really, angels are that powerless and dogs’ accidental uncleanliness that powerful? I own three dogs and would consider my life deeply deficient without them. And Muslims hold that anyone who smells of pork will not be permitted into Paradise. How can God create any creature and the declare it filthy and unclean? The animal has committed no wrong, but for some reason there’s a prejudice against it. To me that seems an indication of ancient Arabian magical influences in which a particular creature can have an evil influence through being a familiar or companion of evil spirits.

 

[MartinJordan]

One thing I’ve found out is that most Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal and, more importantly, uncreated. So although it is the literal word of God, it is not a creation of God. So did God influence the Quran, or did the Quran dictate what God would be?

Also I’ve never understood the concept of “unclean” animals. I have an idea as to why it exists in Judaism, but I won’t go into detail here about it. Islam takes it to an extreme. Muhammad said angels cannot enter a house in which a dog is present. Really, angels are that powerless and dogs’ accidental uncleanliness that powerful? I own three dogs and would consider my life deeply deficient without them. And Muslims hold that anyone who smells of pork will not be permitted into Paradise. How can God create any creature and the declare it filthy and unclean? The animal has committed no wrong, but for some reason there’s a prejudice against it. To me that seems an indication of ancient Arabian magical influences in which a particular creature can have an evil influence through being a familiar or companion of evil spirits.

Sounds like need to start a new type of thread. Im willing to join you if you would start:thumbsup:

MJ

 

[The_Wanderer]

Jesus comes 2nd , even when he has no violence (by his hand) connected with him. Strange how that works.

MJ

The Islamic Jesus has little to do with Jesus Christ. Essentially Islamic Jesus (aka False Prophet) is the opening act for Muhammed and, later, the chief henchman of the Madhi (aka Antichrist).

answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch07_comparing_the_false_prophet.htm

Deviltry; the Koran preaches another Jesus- a false Jesus.

 

[The_Wanderer]

Jack:

A few years ago I attended a “closed” lecture by a prominent rabbi who said that Jesus was “the bastard child of a Roman soldier and a teenage Jewish whore”. No where in Jewish literature do I find any reference to Jesus.

This indecent idea is contained in the Talmud I believe; Celsus the philosopher also mentions it in his anti-Christian polemic The True Word.

 

[Jack_726]

This indecent idea is contained in the Talmud I believe; Celsus the philosopher also mentions it in his anti-Christian polemic The True Word.

Widipedia says this about Celsus and “The True Word”:

   *Celsus wrote that Jesus's father was a Roman soldier named Panthera
   
   Celsus addressed the miracles of Jesus, holding that "Jesus performed His 
   miracles by sorcery".

   Celsus shows himself familiar with the story of Jewish origins*

 

[The_Wanderer]

Widipedia says this about Celsus and “The True Word”:

   *Celsus wrote that Jesus's father was a Roman soldier named Panthera
   
   Celsus addressed the miracles of Jesus, holding that "Jesus performed His 
   miracles by sorcery".

   Celsus shows himself familiar with the story of Jewish origins*

Celsus’s polemic exists mainly in quotations in the works of Origen, who wrote an apology directly in response to The True Word. I’m assuming that Celsus picked up the accusation of the Lord’s supposed Roman father from the Jews, who seem to have been the source of the tale.

 

[matkereta]

So the Quranic verse 5:110 which states “When Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to thee and to thy mother, when I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit”, is Gabriel?

Why doesn’t Allah state it is so then?

MJ

This is the complete sentences 5:110 and the translation by Picktall
إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَى ٱبۡنَ مَرۡيَمَ ٱذۡڪُرۡ نِعۡمَتِى عَلَيۡكَ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَتِكَ إِذۡ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ ٱلۡقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ ٱلنَّاسَ فِى ٱلۡمَهۡدِ وَڪَهۡلاً۬‌ۖ وَإِذۡ عَلَّمۡتُكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبَ وَٱلۡحِكۡمَةَ وَٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةَ وَٱلۡإِنجِيلَ‌ۖ وَإِذۡ تَخۡلُقُ مِنَ ٱلطِّينِ كَهَيۡـَٔةِ ٱلطَّيۡرِ بِإِذۡنِى فَتَنفُخُ فِيہَا فَتَكُونُ طَيۡرَۢا بِإِذۡنِى‌ۖ وَتُبۡرِئُ ٱلۡأَڪۡمَهَ وَٱلۡأَبۡرَصَ بِإِذۡنِى‌ۖ وَإِذۡ تُخۡرِجُ ٱلۡمَوۡتَىٰ بِإِذۡنِى‌ۖ وَإِذۡ ڪَفَفۡتُ بَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ عَنكَ إِذۡ جِئۡتَهُم بِٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتِ فَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنۡہُمۡ إِنۡ هَـٰذَآ إِلَّا سِحۡرٌ۬ مُّبِينٌ۬

When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than evident magic.

Source: quranexplorer.com/quran/

 

[matkereta]

Mohammed claimed that Allah was the supreme name of God, but the bible clearly states that the Almighty’s name is YHWH - Yehowah.
Mohammed spoke in the name of another god, so my conclusion would be that he is a False Prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:20 KJV
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak , or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

---

Allah (English pronunciation: /ˈælə/ or /ˈɑːlə/; Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: ʔɑlˈlɑː] ( listen), ʔalˤˈlˤɑː]) is a word for God. In Arabic, the word means simply “the God.”[1][2][3] It is used mainly by Muslims,[4] Arab Christians, and often, albeit not exclusively, by Bahá’ís, Arabic-speakers, Indonesian, Malaysian and Maltese Christians, Mizrahi Jews and Sikhs.[5][6][7]

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

Allah

(الله)
Grammar: arabic; name; no gender association; no plural Allah is the Arabic word for 'God’The word Allah was in usage since the days of pre-Islamic Arabia. Islam is a monotheistic and Abrahamic faith. This means that Muslims believe that there is only one God, and that this God is the same God that Christians and Jews (referred to in Islam as the People of the Book) worship. Muslims believe that Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and mostly all the other Prophets of the Old and New Testament, were all prophets of God. Arab Christians use the word Allah to refer to God.

Source: islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=allah

The hebrew name of god is Eloah “mighty, powerful One”
Source: hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Eloha/eloha.html

 

[JakeG]

Y’know matkereta when I first became interested in understanding Islam I took it for granted that, at the very least, a man called Muhammad actually existed. Now I am no longer so sure.

I’m basing my doubts on

Die dunklen Anfänge: Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam

(Dark beginnings: New research into the origin* and early history of Islam)

The book is now available in an English translation. It is not easy reading but it makes a compelling case. Objectively speaking I think there is considerable doubt about the actual existence of Muhammad.

What seems certain is that the site of present day Mecca is not the “Mecca” referred to in the koran. Here is how Patricia Crone, a scholar at the Princeton Institute for Advanced Study puts it:

What do we actually know about Mohammed?

The inhabitants of the Byzantine and Persian empires wrote about the northern and the southern ends of the peninsula, from where we also have numerous inscriptions; but the middle was terra incognita. This is precisely where the Islamic tradition places Mohammed’s career. We do not know what was going on there, except insofar as the Islamic tradition tells us.

It yields no literature to which we can relate the Qur’an – excepting poetry, for which we are again dependent on the Islamic tradition and which is in any case so different in character that it does not throw much light on the book. Not a single source outside Arabia mentions Mecca before the conquests, and not one displays any sign of recognition or tells us what was known about it when it appears in the sources thereafter. That there was a place called Mecca where Mecca is today may well be true; that it had a pagan sanctuary is perfectly plausible (Arabia was full of sanctuaries), and it could well have belonged to a tribe called the Quraysh. But we know nothing about the place with anything approaching reasonable certainty. In sum, we have no context for the prophet and his message.

It is difficult not to suspect that the tradition places the prophet’s career in Mecca for the same reason that it insists that he was illiterate: the only way he could have acquired his knowledge of all the things that God had previously told the Jews and the Christians was by revelation from God himself. Mecca was virgin territory; it had neither Jewish nor Christian communities.

The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced by the fact that the Qur’an describes the polytheist opponents as agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms. Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.

In addition, the Qur’an twice describes its opponents as living in the site of a vanished nation, that is to say a town destroyed by God for its sins. There were many such ruined sites in northwest Arabia. The prophet frequently tells his opponents to consider their significance and on one occasion remarks, with reference to the remains of Lot’s people, that “you pass by them in the morning and in the evening”. This takes us to somewhere in the Dead Sea region. Respect for the traditional account has prevailed to such an extent among modern historians that the first two points have passed unnoticed until quite recently, while the third has been ignored. The exegetes said that the Quraysh passed by Lot’s remains on their annual journeys to Syria, but the only way in which one can pass by a place in the morning and the evening is evidently by living somewhere in the vicinity.

The annual journeys invoked by the exegetes were trading journeys. All the sources say that the Quraysh traded in southern Syria, many say that they traded in Yemen too, and some add Iraq and Ethiopia to their destinations. They are described as trading primarily in leather goods, woollen clothing, and other items of mostly pastoralist origin, as well as perfume (not south Arabian frankincense or Indian luxury goods, as used to be thought). Their caravan trade has been invoked to explain the familiarity with Biblical and para-Biblical material which is so marked a feature of the Qur’an, but this goes well beyond what traders would be likely to pick up on annual journeys. There is no doubt, however, that one way or the other a trading community is involved in the rise of Islam, though it is not clear how it relates to that of the agriculturalists of the Qur’an. On all this there is much to be said, if not yet with any certainty.

However Dr. Crone does not, herself, doubt the historicity of Muhammad which is not the same as saying she believes the Muslim legends about Muhammad are correct.

*“Coming into being” probably better conveys the meaning of the German word “Entstehung”

 

[matkereta]

Christianity and Islam are as far apart as Christianity and Judaism.

Muslims do not believe in a God incarnate who lived as a man, was crucified and rose from the dead. They believe Jesus never died on the cross.

There are other difficulties. Muslims believe the koran they recite today is word for word, syllable for syllable, phoneme for phoneme, identical to what Muhammad supposedly heard from an angel they call “Gibril” (Gabriel) fourteen centuries ago.

Trouble is to believe that you have to believe in a creator of the universe who would, for example, flunk geology 101 (the mountains are not pegs to stabilise the earth) and biology 101 (man was not made from a clot of blood)

In fact the whole of the koranic exposition of embryology seems to be a paraphrase of parts of the writings of the second century anatomist, Galen, who got a few things wrong.

This is the website that explain about the pegs as claimed. I don’t read the book so I don’t know the content. Does anybody get hold of the book?
“A book entitled Earth is a basic reference textbook in many universities around the world. One of its two authors is Professor Emeritus Frank Press. He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter, and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC. His book says that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg. The English dictionaries describe “peg” as pin or nail that is used to hold something or to fasten parts of a thing together.” source: islamcan.com/cgi-bin/increaseiman/htmlfiles/static/106860256453257.shtml

 

[matkereta]

Y’know matkereta when I first became interested in understanding Islam I took it for granted that, at the very least, a man called Muhammad actually existed. Now I am no longer so sure.

I’m basing my doubts on

Die dunklen Anfänge: Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam

(Dark beginnings: New research into the origin* and early history of Islam)

The book is now available in an English translation. It is not easy reading but it makes a compelling case. Objectively speaking I think there is considerable doubt about the actual existence of Muhammad.

What seems certain is that the site of present day Mecca is not the “Mecca” referred to in the koran. Here is how Patricia Crone, a scholar at the Princeton Institute for Advanced Study puts it:

What do we actually know about Mohammed?

However Dr. Crone does not, herself, doubt the historicity of Muhammad which is not the same as saying she believes the Muslim legends about Muhammad are correct.

*“Coming into being” probably better conveys the meaning of the German word “Entstehung”

Thanks for the insight but it only from one author perspective. I found this on wiki article which has more reference (neg & pos) about Muhammad. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

 

[JakeG]

matkereta

The koran claims that mountains are placed on the Earth to prevent it from shaking. For example:

16:15 :

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

Back in the seventh century no one knew about plate tectonics. Mountains do not hold the Earth steady.

As you know there have been a number of violent earthquakes in Pakistan. Pakistan is one of the most mountainous countries on Earth. It should be exceptionally stable. It isn’t.

The fact that Prof. Press has for some reason decided to lend his name to this drivel does not alter the facts of geology. No reputable geologist would pay any attention.

Please let’s not have one of these ridiculous threads on the so-called “miracles of the koran.” You are free to believe what you want but there is nothing miraculous about the koran.

 

[MartinJordan]

This is the website that explain about the pegs as claimed. I don’t read the book so I don’t know the content. Does anybody get hold of the book?
“A book entitled Earth is a basic reference textbook in many universities around the world. One of its two authors is Professor Emeritus Frank Press. He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter, and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC. His book says that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg. The English dictionaries describe “peg” as pin or nail that is used to hold something or to fasten parts of a thing together.” source: islamcan.com/cgi-bin/increaseiman/htmlfiles/static/106860256453257.shtml

Is this what is also spoken during worship hours on Fridays in Mosques? Or is it only solely for worship? And if it is the former, how does it relate to the mercy of God?

MJ

 

[matkereta]

Is this what is also spoken during worship hours on Fridays in Mosques? Or do is only solely for worship? And if it is the former, how does it relate to the mercy of God?

MJ

On Friday prayer, the imam will quote one of more of the verses in the Quran and explain about the verse. If the verses relate to mercy of God, the speaker will elaborate in that. e.g.
in chapter 7 verse 19-23 (translated by Pickthall):

And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. (19) Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals. (20) And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you. (21) Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you? (22) They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost! (23)

 

[MartinJordan]

On Friday prayer, the imam will quote one of more of the verses in the Quran and explain about the verse. If the verses relate to mercy of God, the speaker will elaborate in that. e.g.
in chapter 7 verse 19-23 (translated by Pickthall):

And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. (19) Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals. (20) And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you. (21) Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you? (22) They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost! (23)

Thanks. But what I am asking is will they talk about the science in Quran? and if they do do you have an example of how God is Merciful, Loving etc by showing that Quran got Science right?

MJ

 

[matkereta]

matkereta

The koran claims that mountains are placed on the Earth to prevent it from shaking. For example:

16:15 :

Back in the seventh century no one knew about plate tectonics. Mountains do not hold the Earth steady.

As you know there have been a number of violent earthquakes in Pakistan. Pakistan is one of the most mountainous countries on Earth. It should be exceptionally stable. It isn’t.

The fact that Prof. Press has for some reason decided to lend his name to this drivel does not alter the facts of geology. No reputable geologist would pay any attention.

Please let’s not have one of these ridiculous threads on the so-called “miracles of the koran.” You are free to believe what you want but there is nothing miraculous about the koran.

For them , it a “miracles of the koran.” becuase they think it is but for you, it’s not. It’s up to everybody to believe what they want to believe unless its proved wrong . I just highligted the link because you said "for example, flunk geology 101 (the mountains are not pegs to stabilise the earth) " and the link to show their reasoning. Or else, would be helpful, if you can prove that mountains are not pegs to stablise the earth -flunk geology 101?

 

[matkereta]

Thanks. But what I am asking is will they talk about the science in Quran? and if they do do you have an example of how God is Merciful, Loving etc by showing that Quran got Science right?

MJ

I don’t know how to answer your question with my limited knowledge. Sorry.

 

[JakeG]

Or else, would be helpful, if you can prove that mountains are not pegs to stablise the earth -flunk geology 101?

Oh dear matkereta,

It is not possible to give an explanation of plate tectonics in the context of an online forum. If earthquakes in Pakistan are not evidence enough for you that mountains do not stabilise the Earth, and if you are truly interested in learning about geology, I recommend two courses that you can buy online:

How the Earth Works by Professor by Michael E. Wysession

And:

Nature of Earth: An Introduction to Geology by Professor John J. Renton

I found both to be excellent.

Alternatively you can phone up the geology department of a reputable university and ask whether one of the professors will take the trouble to explain to you why mountains cannot be said to stabilise the Earth.

So here are your options:

–Go on believing what you want to believe

–Accept that earthquakes in Pakistan falsify the theory that mountains stabilise the Earth

–Do the hard yards and learn about real geology

I have a feeling you will choose the first of these options and go on demanding, unrealistically, that we prove to your satisfaction in an online forum what every reputable geologist knows.

I may be doing you an injustice but I suspect, from past discussions with Muslims about this topic, that there is no evidence that would satisfy you because you have already made up your mind what to believe.