Who is the Prophet Mohammed?

[IgnatianPhilo]

Jeffery,
. Thank you for your insight. It would seem that people should be non-judgemental where consideration of the legitimacy of someone who is regarded as a Prophet is concerned, and to remain objective, respectful, and courteous.
.** Honestly, I cannot make sense out of how a religion could have developed with a billion and a half followers other than by the hand of God. **
. There is far too much of the profound in the verses of the Quran which tends to be overlooked. Some of it is subtle, while some just jumps out at you…

All people sin in the world, therefore it is the direct will of God and he must guiding them into sin. A terrible argument. As far as I’m concerned there are no profound verses in the quran, it is only your subjective perception which makes you think they are profound.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Mr. Daler,
Thanks for your informative post. I see Mohammed as the “Moses” of the Ishmalites. Given the pronouncements of Vatican II about the legitimacy of Islam, Christians must learn how to accept Mohammed as a prophet and refrain from the negative innuendo that they are in the habit of using against him. (And paying some attention to the profound teachings of Baha’u’llah wouldn’t hurt either.)
Peace.

So basically your telling us to abandon being Christian.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

There are many who believe that Genesis story of Hagar and Ishmael refer to the coming of the Prophet Muhammad:

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: …
.
They were sent to the east in the area proximate to where Muhammad appeared

.

Genesis doesn’t refer to muhammad at all but a great nation that would rise out of Ishmael. Nothing more.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jeffery,

. Honestly, I cannot make sense out of how a religion could have developed with a billion and a half followers other than by the hand of God.

Perhaps you can if you consider apostasy is banned in Islam, Muslims have many children, islamic government favors Muslims and usually repress people of other religions that they may eventually convert to Islam somewhere in their generations for a better citizenship status that usually comes with better economic preference from the government.

 

[daler]

Perhaps you can if you consider apostasy is banned in Islam, Muslims have many children, islamic government favors Muslims and usually repress people of other religions that they may eventually convert to Islam somewhere in their generations for a better citizenship status that usually comes with better economic preference from the government.

Reuben,
. While you do have a point as to the corruption in the practice of Islam, which states: “There shall be no compulsion in religion”, it is the same sin committed historically to the same extent as befell Christianity, is it not?

. Where I came from, if the Indians wanted to survive, they became “Christians”. Seeing how all of their lands, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and been stolen via Treaties, all signed and written “In the year of our Lord, 1868”, etc, etc, etc…

. And as millions of Africans were hustled out of Africa, chained and enslaved, the same fate occurred which you ascribe to Islam, did it not?

. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!”

 

[daler]

Genesis doesn’t refer to muhammad at all but a great nation that would rise out of Ishmael. Nothing more.

And that great nation of Arabia where Hagar and Ishmael settled is: “Who else?”

 

[daler]

All people sin in the world, therefore it is the direct will of God and he must guiding them into sin. A terrible argument. As far as I’m concerned there are no profound verses in the quran, it is only your subjective perception which makes you think they are profound.

You do realize, of course, that this could just as easily be turned back onto yourself as God has guided you into sin.

The hard-hearted people of Jesus time rejected His verses as well…

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
. While you do have a point as to the corruption in the practice of Islam, which states: “There shall be no compulsion in religion”, it is the same sin committed historically to the same extent as befell Christianity, is it not?

. Where I came from, if the Indians wanted to survive, they became “Christians”. Seeing how all of their lands, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and been stolen via Treaties, all signed and written “In the year of our Lord, 1868”, etc, etc, etc…

. And as millions of Africans were hustled out of Africa, chained and enslaved, the same fate occurred which you ascribe to Islam, did it not?

. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!”

You do realize that you just supported my point by bringing up Christianity, don’t you?

Why would you think the whole America became Christians from a pagan population? But once these nations become secular, Christianity is dying and their numbers are reduced.

Religion grows not necessary by the hand of God, that was my point.

 

[daler]

You do realize that you just supported my point by bringing up Christianity, don’t you?

Why would you think the whole America became Christians from a pagan population? But once these nations become secular, Christianity is dying and their numbers are reduced.

Religion grows not necessary by the hand of God, that was my point.

This is a very good point to make, Reuben. It certainly applies equally throughout the world and speaks volumes about human susceptibilities.

Blind imitation of one’s ancestors is never valid. People should independently investigate the truth for themselves and not merely mimic those around them.

 

[daler]

You do realize that you just supported my point by bringing up Christianity, don’t you?

Why would you think the whole America became Christians from a pagan population? But once these nations become secular, Christianity is dying and their numbers are reduced.

Religion grows not necessary by the hand of God, that was my point.

Reuben,
. I would assert that probably the majority or the original inhabitants of “America” were not pagan. At least in my part of the country (Dances with Wolves territory) the Lakota/Dakota Sioux believed in a single Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka. Most other tribes with which I am familiar also acknowledged One God.

.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
. I would assert that probably the majority or the original inhabitants of “America” were not pagan. At least in my part of the country (Dances with Wolves territory) the Lakota/Dakota Sioux believed in a single Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka. Most other tribes with which I am familiar also acknowledged One God.

.

I am sorry if I offend. It is just my usage to word to mean non-Christians. I do realize that pagan is a religion so technically I was not correct, if you have an issue with that.

 

[daler]

I am sorry if I offend. It is just my usage to word to mean non-Christians. I do realize that pagan is a religion so technically I was not correct, if you have an issue with that.

Reuben,
. No issues, brother. Just asserting the validity of Native beliefs, They are “connected” to God and were long before Columbus landed and was followed by the masses of Europeans fleeing religious persecution in Europe. There were certainly “Prophets” among the Native peoples Who taught them even as the Jewish Prophets, sent by God, the Great Spirit.

. To me it is all connected, but it is also evident that in some tribes the same human flaws appeared among the priestly class over time in certain areas, as greed and excess ritual sometimes found its way into the hearts of predatory characters, usually long after the appearance of these Prophet Figures had waned.

. The purity of the teachings was largely retained and responsible for the highly civilized behavior, well organized and stable societies imbued with virtues of courage, honesty, charity, and nobility of most tribal groups, although of course there those who tended to be more violence based and contrary.

George Catlin’s description reflects complimentarily:

“I love a people who always made me welcome to the best they had . . .
who are honest without laws, who have no jails and no poor-house . . .
who never take the name of God in vain . . .
who worship God without a Bible, and I believe that God loves them also . . .
who are free from religious animosities . . .
who have never raised a hand against me, or stolen my property, where there was no law to punish either . . .
who never fought a battle with white men except on their own ground . . .
and oh! how I love a people who don’t live for the love of money.”

[George Catlin, Last Rambles Amongst the Indians of the Rocky Mountains and the Andes, (London, 1868), pp. 354-55, as quoted in Harold McCracken, George Catlin and the Old Frontier (New York: Bonanza Books, 1959), p. 14.]

.
.

 

[M1Garand]

According to the interviews I have heard with “Not Peace But A Sword” author, Robert Spencer, on EWTN, Muhammad was probably not a historical person because he was not referred to at all in early Islam.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

And that great nation of Arabia where Hagar and Ishmael settled is: “Who else?”

Have you actually read the book of genesis?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You do realize, of course, that this could just as easily be turned back onto yourself as God has guided you into sin.

The hard-hearted people of Jesus time rejected His verses as well…

You do realise you were making the argument that based on 1.5 billion muslims accepting islam there must be some legitimacy to it. You do realise my point in saying all mankind sins and most seem to justify their sin somehow would mean that there is some legitimacy in that, that God must be guiding all humanity in this regard.

Its a terrible argument and you know it.

 

[daler]

Have you actually read the book of genesis?

. Well yes, my friend, as well as the rest of the Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Bayan, the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad-Gita, etc.

. It is truly astounding how they fit together and compliment each other. When you have enough pieces of the Jigsaw Puzzle, a unified picture emerges which appears to be a Masterpiece of the Great Spirit sketched over thousands of years on a canvass far too big for any one limited portion to contain.

. As in all great works of art, however, one must stand back and gaze over a period of time with an unclouded mind free of preconceived limited notions in order for the whole to be seen as envisaged by the Artist.

. He has used different Paintbrushes over time. He picks up a Man called Noah and tells of an Ark wherein all humanity are invited, but few respond.
. He opens the Mouth of Abraham and teaches mankind of the Oneness of God.
. He chisels His Commandments upon the Tablets of Moses to guide His Chosen People.
. He Feeds the Sheep of Jesus in the pastures of the Beatitudes on the Mount of Olives.
. He gathers the Tribes of Arabia through the Utterance of an unlettered camel driver named Muhammad through the inspiration of the Angel Gabriel
. He closes the Prophetic Cycle which began with Adam and walks us through the Door of the Bab
. He chooses the Most Great Pen of Baha’u’llah and feeds His sheep amidst the Mount Carmel and the Plain of Akka

. From Genesis even until today, God speaks, and draws us near to appreciate His Art and hear His Words, all of which are “Lela Waste” (Very Good, in Lakota language…

 

[daler]

You do realise you were making the argument that based on 1.5 billion muslims accepting islam there must be some legitimacy to it. You do realise my point in saying all mankind sins and most seem to justify their sin somehow would mean that there is some legitimacy in that, that God must be guiding all humanity in this regard.

Its a terrible argument and you know it.

Ignatian,
. My attempt was to respond to your quote by which I interpreted that you were making the statement about Muslims as “God must be guiding them into sin”. Please forgive me if I mistook your intentions.

Your statement was: “All people sin in the world, therefore it is the direct will of God and he must guiding them into sin. A terrible argument. As far as I’m concerned there are no profound verses in the quran, it is only your subjective perception which makes you think they are profound.”

. Of course it is a subjective perception, a spiritual perception by my understanding, which requires “eyes to see” and “ears to hear”. This is the “subject” of subjectivity, and the relative of relativity, wherein “My sheep hear My voice”

. However, for those whom the description applies: “Eyes they have, but see not” and “Ears they have, but hear not”, there is nothing profound in any of the Words of God and the Verses of His Prophets.

. I can only say that in my readings of the Quran, first picking it up 40 years ago, I have overcome my own prejudice and come to appreciate not only the depth, but the style, which is uncanny, unlike human literary endeavors.

. “To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;” . Surah 5:48

 

[Servant19]

If one were to look objectively, of course, one would realise that “God made us all and saw that it was good”. This INCLUDES SIN

Let us analyse this a little.

What is sin?

Originally, Adam, who eats the apple, was disobedient to Gods will, and thus fell into sin. Sin WAS disobedience. God did of course, create us with free will, AND with the capacity to be obedient. Our disobedience is simply a lack of obedience. The source of that disobedience is God, we just manifest it little sometimes.

We also simply manifest unkindness, dishonesty, untruthfullness, unlovingness, and unfriendliness.

God created all of these things. When we excercise our free will, we can be loving or less loving, obedient or less obedient, kind or less kind.

Creation has been made with gradations and hierarchies, manifesting various grades of beauty, etc etc.

And so it is with sin, it is simply a gradation of all that is good

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. Well yes, my friend, as well as the rest of the Old and New Testaments, the Quran, the Bayan, the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Dhammapada, the

Bhagavad-Gita, etc.

If you had read the book of genesis you would realise that the promise to ishmael was fulfilled within the very pages of the book of genesis. Not some such years later with a false prophet called Muhammad.

KJV Genesis 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

Ishmael was already a great nation but like the bible said, Ishmael was an *** of a man and the arabs by in large accomplished little after this point besides the conquering of Christian lands immediately following muhammad (which I suppose you think God blessed).

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. “To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;” . Surah 5:48

The scripture that came before it? What does the quran affirm in the bible? The quran contradicts the bible hence why muslims have always had a hesitant and reluctant view of the bible, it contradicts the very claims of their text. I tend to think muhammad (or whoever wrote the quran, for there is no good reason to think we know anything for certain as to its origin) received false information and that is the muddled and mistaken mess we call the quran today.

Im glad you admit it is subjective perception, in which case describing how you personally feel is useless and won’t make me, a rather skeptical person towards Islam and bahai feel any sympathy. I don’t think you would be in wondrous awe of what I consider the greatest chant, the great doxology in the Orthodox church because of its contents which clearly you have to revile (Though you would just reinterpret it and pretend to agree, dishonestly like most bahai tend to, ignoring the actual intent of the chant).

Let me ask you a question. If muhammad is right, he told us there were true followers of Jesus, and that they would be victorious. These were the apostles and their desciples according to the quran (you shouldn’t need a reference if you’ve been reading the quran for so long but I can provide it). Yet the curious thing is that the historical record offers no such group of true believers who agreed with the quran or islamic teaching.

It cannot be the Orthodox/Catholic Christian church that was the victorious church, the victorious party because we blaspheme God by associating partners with him and are damned to hell, there is no salvation for them or us today according to the quran. The Ebionites don’t match islamic belief, the gnostics and just about every heretical group we can think of doesn’t match what we should expect to find if they were truely victorious. Victorious is the church influencing and ultimately joining the roman empire, it isn’t a vague sect which for all intention purposes never existed in history but only in the mind of the quranic author.