Who is the Prophet Mohammed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter peace2u2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
dronald said:
I am indeed aware of this, but due to the historical, secular data we have on John the Baptist we know that he was always called this and therefore did Baptize. I bring this up for Muslims who disregard his baptism as the qur’an says nothing of Johns baptizing.

There are four accounts in the qur’an of John the Baptist (I don’t have them available on my phone) and none mention Baptism. However, all four biblical canonical accounts speak of John as, “John the Baptist” as well as Josephus the Jewish historian. Therefore there is no denying who John was and what he did.

It’s rare that a Muslim has an answer to the question of John and that’s why I bring it up with Muslims. Similar to the crucifixion, it’s a historically accurate account that gives no answer and appeals to ambiguity in Islamic scriptures.
Click to expand...
dronald,

. I did a short google search of John the Baptist in the Quran. I find it quite interesting, and clearly, the Station of John is as that of a Prophet being “guided” by God Himself. That He is not termed “the Baptist” is in no wise lessening His high station.

. "‘Zecheriah, We bring you the good news of the birth of a son whose name shall be John, one whose namesake We never created before.’ He said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a boy when my wife is barren and I have reached an extremely old age?’ He answered: ‘So shall it be.’ Your Lord says: ‘It is easy for Me’, and then added: ‘For beyond doubt, I created you earlier when you were nothing’ (Quran 19:7-9).

“Zecheriah exclaimed: ‘My Lord! How shall I have a son when old age has overtaken me and my wife is barren?’ He said: ‘Thus shall it be; Allah does what He wills’”(Quran 3:40).

“And We bestowed favor upon Zecheriah, when he cried to his Lord: ‘Lord! Leave me not solitary [without any issue]. You are the best Inheritor.’ So We accepted his prayer and bestowed upon him John, and We made his wife fit (to bear a child). Verily they hastened in doing good works and called upon Us with longing and fear, and humbled themselves to Us” (Quran 21:89-90).

“Then Zecheriah prayed to his Lord: ‘O Lord! Grant me from Yourself out of Your grace the gift of a goodly offspring, for indeed You alone heed all Prayers. As he stood praying in the sanctuary, the angels called out to him: ‘Allah gives you good tidings of John, who shall confirm a command of Allah, shall be outstanding among men, utterly chaste, and a Prophet from among the righteous” (Quran 3:38-39).

"'O John! Hold fast the Book with all your strength. We had bestowed wisdom upon him while he was still a child; and We also endowed him with tenderness and purity; and he was exceedingly pious and cherishing to his parents. Never was he insolent or rebellious. Peace be upon him, the day he was born, and the day he will die, and the day he will be raised up alive. (Quran 19: 12-15).

“And We bestowed upon Abraham (offspring) Isaac and Jacob and each of them did We guide to the right way as We had earlier guided Noah to the right way; and (of his descendants We guided) David and Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward those who do good. (And of his descendants We guided) Zecheriah, John, Jesus and Elias: each one of them was of the righteous.” (Quran 6:84-85).
 
daler said:
Most assuredly, friend… Praise be unto Him!
Click to expand...
John the Baptist reputation is only known through Christianity. Therefore due respect should be given to the Faith that brought him to prominence. And thus the Trustworthiness of that Faith.

MJ
 
daler said:
dronald,

. I did a short google search of John the Baptist in the Quran. I find it quite interesting, and clearly, the Station of John is as that of a Prophet being “guided” by God Himself. That He is not termed “the Baptist” is in no wise lessening His high station.
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting the five passages I was speaking of. This no way refutes my points or answers my questions.

God bless.
MartinJordan said:
John the Baptist reputation is only known through Christianity. Therefore due respect should be given to the Faith that brought him to prominence. And thus the Trustworthiness of that Faith.

MJ
Click to expand...
Let me correct you there just a bit. He’s also known through non-Christian historical accounts which also give evidence for the Christian account of him. The man who killed him, the type of death he suffered and his baptizing are confirmed by historical accounts.
 
dronald said:
Similar to the crucifixion, it’s a historically accurate account that gives no answer and appeals to ambiguity in Islamic scriptures.
Click to expand...
dronald,

. In reference to the crucifixion of Jesus, there is an understanding that Isa Ruh’u’llah, meaning Jesus the “Spirit” of God, also translated as the “Breath” of God, cannot be crucified, although the body of Jesus was in fact crucified.

. There are a variety of translations wherein certain liberties are taken regarding the crucifixion. It seems to go over the heads of people what is being said, as there seems difficulty in comprehending that the true Reality of Jesus, which existed before Abraham, also existed before Jesus.

. When we understand “Who” it is we are talking about, as One being infinitely more than the human appearance of that Spirit of God, which pre-existed, then it is not so difficult to understand this verse, the one wherein it says:

. “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed Him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not." 4:157

. By “Him” is meant the Spirit of God, not the mortal body of Jesus. So it is necessary to view this concept with an open mind to see it in this respect. Those who hold to a singular and literal process of identity cannot understand this, and may argue about it, for it throws them off. (Indeed, it may well be intended to do so! As this is the process of separating those who have spiritual discernment, or “eyes to see”, from those who don’t.)

.
 
daler said:
dronald,

. In reference to the crucifixion of Jesus, there is an understanding that Isa Ruh’u’llah, meaning Jesus the “Spirit” of God, also translated as the “Breath” of God, cannot be crucified, although the body of Jesus was in fact crucified.

. There are a variety of translations wherein certain liberties are taken regarding the crucifixion. It seems to go over the heads of people what is being said, as there seems difficulty in comprehending that the true Reality of Jesus, which existed before Abraham, also existed before Jesus.

. When we understand “Who” it is we are talking about, as One being infinitely more than the human appearance of that Spirit of God, which pre-existed, then it is not so difficult to understand this verse, the one wherein it says:

. “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed Him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not." 4:157

. By “Him” is meant the Spirit of God, not the mortal body of Jesus. So it is necessary to view this concept with an open mind to see it in this respect. Those who hold to a singular and literal process of identity cannot understand this, and may argue about it, for it throws them off. (Indeed, it may well be intended to do so! As this is the process of separating those who have spiritual discernment, or “eyes to see”, from those who don’t.)

.
Click to expand...
Within Islam the common interpretation is that Jesus was “Crucified not” and “killed not” so when I’m discussing with Muslims I’ll often talk about the historical crucifixion. You omitted any explanation as to why, “Allah made it appear” in such a way although you quoted the text its self. Mohammed was sometimes very careful in making sure that things were not interpreted in a way that caused confusion and that’s why in the Qu’ran it is very clear. Jesus was not killed, nor crucified, rather Allah made it appear that way. Nothing about a separate Spirit from body.

Although, my inquiries were directed towards Muslims and not Bahai.
 
dronald said:
Within Islam the common interpretation is that Jesus was “Crucified not” and “killed not” so when I’m discussing with Muslims I’ll often talk about the historical crucifixion. You omitted any explanation as to why, “Allah made it appear” in such a way although you quoted the text its self. Mohammed was sometimes very careful in making sure that things were not interpreted in a way that caused confusion and that’s why in the Qur’an it is very clear. Jesus was not killed, nor crucified, rather Allah made it appear that way. Nothing about a separate Spirit from body.

Although, my inquiries were directed towards Muslims and not Bahai.
Click to expand...
dronald,

. Thank you. Yes, I would very much like for our Muslim friends to comment on this. As you say, the common interpretation is what appears on the surface, but there is much in the Holy Quran which conceals the pearls beneath the sea.

. In the very middle of prayer, the Qiblih (Point of Adoration) was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca. This was to separate those who followed the Prophet from those who doubted Him. Many apostatized their faith when this happened, "As if they were affrighted asses, Fleeing from a lion! "

. The Day of Judgement is the awaited Day of Separation, even as Jesus said: “Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword.”

.
 
dronald said:
Let me correct you there just a bit. He’s also known through non-Christian historical accounts which also give evidence for the Christian account of him. The man who killed him, the type of death he suffered and his baptizing are confirmed by historical accounts.
Click to expand...
Isn’t John the Baptist a prophet because Christianity says he is?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Isn’t John the Baptist a prophet because Christianity says he is?

MJ
Click to expand...
From our point of view sure, but from a historical point of view we know that he was killed because he posed a threat and that he was known as, “John the Baptist.” If Muslims take the evidence from the four canonical Gospels as well as Josephus’s accounts as evidence that John really was a Baptist that Baptized then there is much more investigating to do. I like to see how Muslims justify their claims even with the ambiguity found within Islam.
 
dronald said:
From our point of view sure, but from a historical point of view we know that he was killed because he posed a threat and that he was known as, “John the Baptist.” If Muslims take the evidence from the four canonical Gospels as well as Josephus’s accounts as evidence that John really was a Baptist that Baptized then there is much more investigating to do. I like to see how Muslims justify their claims even with the ambiguity found within Islam.
Click to expand...
dronald,

. There cannot be an assumption that Muhammad “took anything” from any source other than the Angel Gabriel, in viewing anything which comes to us through the Quran.

. When the Source wells up out of the ground, some of the same water which has appeared in wells of the past reappears, but flows in somewhat different patterns or streams, while still being the same water from the same Source.

. The challenge then, is to set aside (at least during examination) any assumptions that are otherwise. For if Muhammad was indeed a Prophet Who was connected to the Source, then it is the Source with Whom we disagree.

. The problem then, whether for Christians, Jews, or others, is when the River of Revelation flowing out of this Source differs on occasion from the ancient riverbed of understanding and the etched traces in the riverbanks we are accustomed to following.

. Maybe we need to walk upriver awhile, and view with new eyes, which direction it is flowing. Perhaps Noah’s flood was just such a discombobulation of what the people of His generation had been accustomed to that it veiled them from His Light, and they were left behind, drowned in their own past times and ancient assumptions, based solely upon the traditions they had inherited and clung to, denying the impending flood of Revelation which proceeded from the Mouthpiece of God.

.
 
MartinJordan said:
Isn’t John the Baptist a prophet because Christianity says he is?

MJ
Click to expand...
Martin,
. If John the Baptist is a Prophet, it is because God has made Him a Prophet, whether Christian or Islamic traditions impart that knowledge to us or not. That Jesus confirmed Him to be the Return of Elijah was not received well by the Jews. I don’t know why it would be a problem then when the Quran reaffirms Him to be a Prophet, even as that Holy Book reaffirms Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and many of the Lesser Prophets of God as well.
. If the Quran is indeed from God, then it seems quite logical that the previous Prophets, including John, would be mentioned.

. "Say, “We believe in God and in that which has been revealed to us and in that which was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. We believe in that which was given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between them and we have submitted ourselves to the will of God”. 3:84

.
 
daler said:
Martin,
. If John the Baptist is a Prophet, it is because God has made Him a Prophet, whether Christian or Islamic traditions impart that knowledge to us or not. That Jesus confirmed Him to be the Return of Elijah was not received well by the Jews. I don’t know why it would be a problem then when the Quran reaffirms Him to be a Prophet, even as that Holy Book reaffirms Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and many of the Lesser Prophets of God as well.
. If the Quran is indeed from God, then it seems quite logical that the previous Prophets, including John, would be mentioned.

. "Say, “We believe in God and in that which has been revealed to us and in that which was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. We believe in that which was given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between them and we have submitted ourselves to the will of God”. 3:84

.
Click to expand...
This is revisionism.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
This is revisionism.

MJ
Click to expand...
Martin,
. I am unable to comprehend how it Revelation from God could be called revisionism with also calling God a revisionist if in fact the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, who also gave Daniel his visions, the very ones which appeared in the prophecy about 1260 AH coinciding with 2300 days (years), both ending in 1844 AD. This is very, very carefully and thoroughly studied and documented and truly worth looking into if one wishes to discover the solid foundation which supports this structure of belief.
. Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha is online and contains about 5 short and concise chapters that are flawless in their logic and explanation and I would encourage you, for the sake of dialogue, to allow yourself some time to review this for yourself. It would very much be helpful in discussion by demonstrating conclusively the Prophethood of Muhammad from Christian Scripture.
. Jesus Himself referred to the prophecies of Daniel, who precisely and in several ways predicted the very crucifixion event of Jesus 490 years (70 weeks) after the rebuilding of Jerusalem following the decree given by Artaxerxes in 457 BC (plus 490 is 33 AD)
. I know I’ve posted this before, but until it is studied, how can such evidence which is so conclusive be not taken seriously when it would clearly prove the validity of Muhammad in a thread such as this?
. God bless you brother Martin, for I can tell that you are kind-hearted and sincere, but just full of doubt concerning how it is possible to accept Muhammad as yet another Prophet of the line of Abraham going forward. After all, Jesus has been proven and accepted by OT prophecies, from Daniel and others, so to dismiss evidence doesn’t seem to do it justice.
. When do we go to trial, your Honor, and to whom can we refer witnesses to our case, if not to your self? Thus far, all I can hear is the lynch mob in the street, even the same mob which called for the death of Christ, the same mentality, the same arguments, the same dismissal of evidence so readily available from the Holy Books themselves…

. Peace, my friend. When you have donned the robes of justice, let us know when we can proceed, your Honor. This is, after all, purported to discover “Who is the Prophet Muhammad?”, and unless it be only a Kangaroo Court, He deserves a fair trial.

. Allah’u’Abha,
. Daler
 
Mohamet was a pedophile, rapist, illiterate fraud who was possessed by the devil.

He took aspects of both Judaism and Christianity and combined the two.

His religion is based on he sword and has only been spread by the sword. Everywhere his religion is, there is no progress. Even in the so-called Islamic golden age, the influence of Islam was very little.
 
daler said:
Martin,
. I am unable to comprehend how it Revelation from God could be called revisionism with also calling God a revisionist if in fact the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, who also gave Daniel his visions, the very ones which appeared in the prophecy about 1260 AH coinciding with 2300 days (years), both ending in 1844 AD. This is very, very carefully and thoroughly studied and documented and truly worth looking into if one wishes to discover the solid foundation which supports this structure of belief.
. Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha is online and contains about 5 short and concise chapters that are flawless in their logic and explanation and I would encourage you, for the sake of dialogue, to allow yourself some time to review this for yourself. It would very much be helpful in discussion by demonstrating conclusively the Prophethood of Muhammad from Christian Scripture.
. Jesus Himself referred to the prophecies of Daniel, who precisely and in several ways predicted the very crucifixion event of Jesus 490 years (70 weeks) after the rebuilding of Jerusalem following the decree given by Artaxerxes in 457 BC (plus 490 is 33 AD)
. I know I’ve posted this before, but until it is studied, how can such evidence which is so conclusive be not taken seriously when it would clearly prove the validity of Muhammad in a thread such as this?
. God bless you brother Martin, for I can tell that you are kind-hearted and sincere, but just full of doubt concerning how it is possible to accept Muhammad as yet another Prophet of the line of Abraham going forward. After all, Jesus has been proven and accepted by OT prophecies, from Daniel and others, so to dismiss evidence doesn’t seem to do it justice.
. When do we go to trial, your Honor, and to whom can we refer witnesses to our case, if not to your self? Thus far, all I can hear is the lynch mob in the street, even the same mob which called for the death of Christ, the same mentality, the same arguments, the same dismissal of evidence so readily available from the Holy Books themselves…

. Peace, my friend. When you have donned the robes of justice, let us know when we can proceed, your Honor. This is, after all, purported to discover “Who is the Prophet Muhammad?”, and unless it be only a Kangaroo Court, He deserves a fair trial.

. Allah’u’Abha,
. Daler
Click to expand...
Daler, you’ve been so long now. It is the same rehash of giving Mohammed prevalence but wherein in Catholicism and in particular in the Catechism there is no such teaching about him. The importance is given only to Abraham where Muslims are concerned.

Justice had already been served through the suffering, death and resurrection and Ascension of Jesus. It is only through Jesus name we are saved.

MJ
 
From what i have read as a Muslim, John the Baptist, is also honored as a prophet in Islam as ‘Yaḥyā ibn Zakarīyā’, translated literally as “John, son of Zechariah”. He is widely believed by Muslims to have been a witness to the word of God, and a prophet who would herald the coming of Jesus. According to the Qur’an, John was one on whom God sent peace on the day that he was born and the day that he died. God bless all our prophets may god have peace upon them.👍
 
This is the best I could gather from my readings as well. But could you explain if he baptized, why he baptized and if Jesus in turn baptized and why?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top