Who is the Prophet?

[Reuben_J]

Many Muslims accept the crucifixion. Here is a paper on this topic written by Alawite Muslims:

themathesontrust.org/papers/islam/andani-crucifixion.pdf

Todd Lawson, an academic, has studied the history of Islamic thought about the crucifixion. Many early Muslims did not deny the historic crucifixion:

amazon.com/Crucifixion-Quran-History-Muslim-Thought/dp/1851686355

And here is another academic treatment of that passage:

www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jesus%20dead%20or%20alive.pdf

Who are the Alawite Muslims?

As for the other two links, would it not be more appropriate to refer to Muslims sources instead of non-Muslims academics?

I have discussed this topic quite thoroughly with Muslims both in the internet and real life (these happen to be friends and therefore our discussion on this was quite frank and objective). All believe that Jesus was not crucified as per the Quran in particular 4:157. According to them one of the main reasons for this is that Allah would save his prophets, though as a Christian I disagree with that.

You can ask Muslims themselves or even Muslim posters here. There were threads here in CAF about Quran 4:157.

Post #33 - God tricked unbelievers and saved His prophet. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=946336&highlight=surah+4%3A157&page=3

All of them (Muslims) were adamant that Jesus were not crucified. This belief among Muslims is universal that practically all the mainstream Muslim sects (Sunnis and Shias) would say that Jesus was not crucified and thus vilifying Christian belief and doctrine on this.

It is understandable that you, as a non-Muslim, should differ on this and taking a position that opposes to the Muslims themselves. At first I thought you may not be serious but seeing that you are rather adamant that you think Muslims believe that Jesus was crucified on the cross. Well, from the knowledge that I gathered from true Muslims, I mean not Muslims from sects that they would considered as deviants, you are just wrong.

Here are some explanations on 4:157 by Muslims:

This verse is an evidence that Allah, The Most-High, took him up alive and saved him from being killed. There is a consensus of the Ummah – as Ibn Qayyim reports in Bayan Talbiss al-Jahmia – that Allah has raised I’sa (Alaihi As-Salaam) to him to the heaven.
[library.islamweb.net/ema(name removed by moderator)age/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=87468](http://library.islamweb.net/ema(name removed by moderator)age/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=87468)

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
And for their saying, boastfully, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’, as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says,* in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus’s] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of, him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he;** and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā‘a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: ‘instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]’; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).*
altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=157&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger) Allah destroyed their man Tatianos. (They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them) Allah made Tatianos look like Jesus and so they killed him instead of him; (and lo! those who disagree concerning it) concerning his killing (are in doubt thereof) in doubt about his killing; (they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture) not even conjecture; (they slew him not for certain) i.e. certainly they did not kill him,
altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=157&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Tafsir by Ibn Kathir.
But they kill him not, nor crucified him, but it appear as such to them …
… meaning referring to the person the Jews thought was Isa.
books.google.com.my/books?id=AUOqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT512&dq=tafsir+4:157&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X1ZmVb7_BNL88AXNu4G4Ag&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=tafsir%204%3A157&f=false

 

[Reuben_J]

Matthew Light:

Why did they not quote the entire verse? And I find the Sahih translation inferior. Here is Pickthall 4:157-158:

I find Sahih Interantional clearer as it uses modern English. The full translation:

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Matthew Light:

That it, it “appears” to us that killing the body means death, but it is simply a transition to a more real and abundant life.

As shown, that is not how Muslims interpret it. They did not deny the crucifixion but that the person crucified was not Jesus but someone else that ‘appeared’ like him.

You really need to ask them (the Muslims) for this.
Matthew Light:

Jesus’ body was killed, His spirit could never be killed by anyone.

Nonsense. No Muslims that I heard would say this for Surah 4:157.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I find Sahih Interantional clearer as it uses modern English

Sahih interpolates the Qur’an. That is, it inserts words into the translation that are not present in the Arabic as a “clarification”. I find those interpretations unacceptable.

Pickthall is far from perfect, but it does a lot more translation and a lot less interpolation.

 

[Matthew_Light]

As shown, that is not how Muslims interpret it.

There are many different Muslims. Some (probably the large majority today) believe that Jesus was not crucified.

So what?

The text of 4:157-158 is very ambiguous, and Muslims have disagreed from the beginning on its meaning.

In any event, the Qur’an quotes Jesus as stating that God took his soul - that is, He died, in 5:117:

“…Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them:” - Qur’an 5:117

Now most Muslims believe that Jesus never died. So much so that they have come up with bizarre translations of 5:117 that completely differ from what the same words mean in two dozen other cases, instead of simply accepting what the Qur’an says - that Jesus died, and God raised Him up after death.

Nonsense. No Muslims that I heard would say this for Surah 4:157.

I already linked a paper written by Muslims who say that.

As for the other two links, would it not be more appropriate to refer to Muslims sources instead of non-Muslims academics?

If we want to know what different Muslims believed 1200 years ago, we use the methods of academic history to find that out. It turns out that the interpretation of 4:157 is not nearly as cut and dried as some would indicate.

 

[Reuben_J]

If we want to know what different Muslims believed 1200 years ago, we use the methods of academic history to find that out. It turns out that the interpretation of 4:157 is not nearly as cut and dried as some would indicate.

Interesting method. I learn something today. So that is why you are a Bahai and people like Hasantas are Muslims. Hmmmmmm

 

[hasantas]

I find Sahih Interantional clearer as it uses modern English. The full translation:

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

As shown, that is not how Muslims interpret it. They did not deny the crucifixion but that the person crucified was not Jesus but someone else that ‘appeared’ like him.

You really need to ask them (the Muslims) for this.

Nonsense. No Muslims that I heard would say this for Surah 4:157.

3:55 [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Al-Imran:55

God will judge us for our arguments. So we will learn the fact on the Day of Reckoning.

 

[hasantas]

Was he Baptized then?

Why do you ask? Non of Muslims is Baptized. But Muslims perfom ablution which is alike Baptism to get moraly and bodily clear for worships. Ablution is more usual in Islam. Also Muslims get deads ablution to make them moraly clear before buried.

 

[PaulDupre1]

3:55 [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Al-Imran:55

God will judge us for our arguments. So we will learn the fact on the Day of Reckoning.

So which is it, hasantas? According to Islam, did Jesus die on the cross?

A simple “yes” or “no”, please. No taqiyya please.

Thank you,
Paul

 

[rcwitness]

Why do you ask? Non of Muslims is Baptized. But Muslims perfom ablution which is alike Baptism to get moraly and bodily clear for worships. Ablution is more usual in Islam. Also Muslims get deads ablution to make them moraly clear before buried.

Because if Muhammad did not receive Baptism, then he rejected the Gospel. Testifying He was Lord and not receiving His Baptism is a contradiction.

 

[hasantas]

So which is it, hasantas? According to Islam, did Jesus die on the cross?

A simple “yes” or “no”, please. No taqiyya please.

Thank you,
Paul

It is obvious in Qur’an that Jesus did not die on the cross. What I mean is that God will inform us the truth about Jesus in which we differ. So we will learn wich of us is true about Jesus. A man was crucifixed but who was it?

I do not know any Muslim who believe that Jesus did not die on the cross.

“No taqiyya please” seems a bit mocking. Taqiyya is a manner for weak people. Pagans were used to kill or torture Muslim. It was used in Islam initially because some Muslims were very weak. But most of Muslim did not use that way. And later taqiyya was not to be used to refer. And it is better to not aplly taqiyya in any situation and that is Taqwa!

No taqiyya but taqwa inshâallah.

 

[hasantas]

Because if Muhammad did not receive Baptism, then he rejected the Gospel. Testifying He was Lord and not receiving His Baptism is a contradiction.

Baptism is a kind of ablution for moral clean. But you interpret that as if it is for forgiving all sins. All sins can be forgived but not only through Baptism.

Nobody reject Gospels. It is a requirement and order for Muslim to believe in Bible. But we do not have to interpret Bible as you do. Indeed we have not the exact text of Bible but something about % 70 or 80.

 

[dcana]

That’s very unfortunate.

We cannot do Christ’s work while at the same time deliberately fostering antagonism between people of differing faiths.

Can you show me official Catholic doctrine that states that Muhammad is the Antichrist, and Islam is the Devil’s religion? No, of course not. Pope Francis is doing everything he can to foster rapprochement, cooperation and amity between Christians and Muslims. This is God’s work, this is following Christ.

Christ put truth paramount, not “not offending” others. Even more than putting truth paramount, He said that He Himself is the Truth. If you read and take all of the Gospels seriously, you will find He was not some hippie itinerant do-gooder/philosopher as many like to imagine Him to be. He offended and scandalized many. He said that He is God. Does that scandalize you? It should. Do you believe His claim? Either you believe it or you don’t. It should scandalize anybody if a person claims to be God.

I said an antichrist, not the antichrist. Are you purposely changing my words or did you misread what I wrote?

To answer your question, no, I cannot. There is no “doctrine” on who is or who is not an antichrist, nor will there ever be. Doctrine concerns things like the attributes of God and morality. I didn’t say it is the “Devil’s religion” so please don’t say that I did, or at least imply that I think it is so.

I do not hold “not offending people” in itself as a virtue. Truth is a virtue. Truth may appeal or appall, depending on the listener. And just to make it clear, I am not equating these things with “The Truth”. They are my opinion. Certainly, one should not go about trying to deliberately offend people. If the same thing can be said equally clearly in an offensive or a non-offensive way, obviously being non-offensive is the way to go.

I am not deliberately fostering antagonism between people of differing faiths. M. more than any other fits with St. John’s definition of an antichrist, in my opinion. Does he not? I know you do not believe in our Scriptures, but read them and show me how they do not apply.

Please note, I have said nothing about individual Muslims, except the founder of the religion. As with any group that can be named, most of them are good, descent, hard-working people.

Billions of people are not, and have not been, Christians as a result of M’s “preaching”, which is the work of the devil, not the work of God. Saying that it is a work of the devil doesn’t mean that Islam is the “Religion of the devil.” I’m really not sure what your phrase even means. I don’t take the fact of billions of souls not becoming Christians because of him lightly, though you might say, “so what? they’re just following an equally valid path to God.” I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Would you agree with that statement or not?

“A Christianity of charity without truth would be more or less interchangeable with a pool of good sentiments, helpful for social cohesion, but of little relevance. In other words, there would no longer be any real place for God in the world.”

• Benedict XVI, Encyclical Letter, Caritas in Veritate, #4

God bless

 

[jonathan_hili]

The Old Testament left unfulfilled the promise made to Moses: “I will raise up a prophet like yourself for them from their own brothers; I will put my words into his mouth and he shall tell them all that I command them.”

If Jesus wasn’t a prophet, who is this prophet?

While there could be a number of candidates to this title, I don’t think Mohammed could be the prophet referred to. The promise states that the prophet will come “from their own brothers”, that is, from one of the twelve tribes. However, according to tradition Mohammed is descended from Ishmael and not from the line of Issac (then Jacob/Israel and a member of the tribes).

 

[Matthew_Light]

I know you do not believe in our Scriptures, but read them and show me how they do not apply.

How do you “know” that I do not believe in the Bible?

Here is what Abdu’l-Baha (son of Baha’u’llah) wrote about the Bible:

“This book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”

 

[dcana]

How do you “know” that I do not believe in the Bible?

Here is what Abdu’l-Baha (son of Baha’u’llah) wrote about the Bible:

“This book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”

Because you are Baha’i, not Christian.

Wow such flowery, poetic language! And yet I am not impressed. Here’s why: did Abdu’l-Baha (son of Baha’u’llah) become a Christian? No.

I was referring to the New Testament specifically. If you read it and God gives you the faith to believe it (or rather, in Jesus as Lord and Savior) and you accept that faith, then you do what Jesus commanded, as Peter, being faithful to the Lord’s teaching, said to the Jews to whom he was preaching, as recorded in Acts 2:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

When you are baptized, you are made a member of Christ’s Church, His mystical Body, and are no longer in a state of enmity with God, but one of friendship. Here’s some of Jesus’ “non-offensive”, “non-judgmental” words on the subject:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

One of the most important, if not the most important, “theme”, if you will, of the New Testament is that Jesus of Nazareth is God. Do you believe that? Another is that the two reasons He came to us are to save us from our sins and to reveal the Father to us. Do you believe that? Or is it that when you say you “believe in the Bible”, you simply mean that you agree and try to live by Jesus’ “nice” teachings about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, taking care of the poor, etc.? You tell me. What does “believing in the Bible” mean to you? In my opinion, believing in the parts you like and discarding the rest is not believing in the Bible at all. We believe that the Bible, and all of it, is God’s Word - His self-revelation to mankind, one of the three ways in which God has revealed Himself to us. If I read through the Qur’an and find some passages that I thought expressed some useful wisdom and tried to remember/live by those, does that mean I “believe in the Qur’an”? No, not hardly. To believe in the Qur’an means believing that all of the words in it were dictated by God directly to Mohammad. Since I do not believe that, which is what Muslims themselves profess, then I do not believe in the Qur’an.

God bless

 

[dcana]

If Abdu’l-Baha (son of Baha’u’llah) truly believed that it was the “Bible of Salvation”, he would have “repented and been baptized” and become a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. As he did not, then whatever he meant by the “Bible of Salvation” is not what we mean by the “Bible of Salvation”.

The Bible of Salvation teaches:

“No one comes to the Father except through me,” and so Jesus calls Himself “The Way”.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

“There is salvation in no one else [but Jesus Christ], for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

These are rather “excluding” statements, wouldn’t you say? They couldn’t be more so. You’re either in or you’re out. Yes, only God can judge peoples’ hearts, but these are His words. He who follows them assuredly follows them to eternal life, he who ignores them ignores them to his peril.

May God bless and protect you in all your ways

 

[hasantas]

Because you are Baha’i, not Christian.

Wow such flowery, poetic language! And yet I am not impressed. Here’s why: did Abdu’l-Baha (son of Baha’u’llah) become a Christian? No.

I was referring to the New Testament specifically. If you read it and God gives you the faith to believe it (or rather, in Jesus as Lord and Savior) and you accept that faith, then you do what Jesus commanded, as Peter, being faithful to the Lord’s teaching, said to the Jews to whom he was preaching, as recorded in Acts 2:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

When you are baptized, you are made a member of Christ’s Church, His mystical Body, and are no longer in a state of enmity with God, but one of friendship. Here’s some of Jesus’ “non-offensive”, “non-judgmental” words on the subject:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

One of the most important, if not the most important, “theme”, if you will, of the New Testament is that Jesus of Nazareth is God. Do you believe that? Another is that the two reasons He came to us are to save us from our sins and to reveal the Father to us. Do you believe that? Or is it that when you say you “believe in the Bible”, you simply mean that you agree and try to live by Jesus’ “nice” teachings about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, taking care of the poor, etc.? You tell me. What does “believing in the Bible” mean to you? In my opinion, believing in the parts you like and discarding the rest is not believing in the Bible at all. We believe that the Bible, and all of it, is God’s Word - His self-revelation to mankind, one of the three ways in which God has revealed Himself to us. If I read through the Qur’an and find some passages that I thought expressed some useful wisdom and tried to remember/live by those, does that mean I “believe in the Qur’an”? No, not hardly. To believe in the Qur’an means believing that all of the words in it were dictated by God directly to Mohammad. Since I do not believe that, which is what Muslims themselves profess, then I do not believe in the Qur’an.

God bless

You are very keen. The truth may be in somewhere else.

Bible is revelation from God. Jesus either was God Himself or prophet of God but the conclusion is same: Bible is revelation from God. So Muslims and Christians arrive to same point in different way. Christian’s path pass through mystery which seem fantastic but Muslims’ way pass on a straight ground.

Christians claim God is one but God Has three personalities but Muslims say God is one with one personalty which is more intelligible.

Christians claim that the salvation is only through Jesus but Muslims say salvation is through all prophets which is more broad.

Bible is scripture for all believers as Qur’an is for all humanbeing. So nobody can take possesion of these scriptures only for himself. And nobody should say that his thought is the only true.

 

[MartinJordan]

You are very keen. The truth may be in somewhere else.

Bible is revelation from God. Jesus either was God Himself or prophet of God but the conclusion is same: Bible is revelation from God. So Muslims and Christians arrive to same point in different way. Christian’s path pass through mystery which seem fantastic but Muslims’ way pass on a straight ground.

Christians claim God is one but God Has three personalities but Muslims say God is one with one personalty which is more intelligible.

Christians claim that the salvation is only through Jesus but Muslims say salvation is through all prophets which is more broad.

Bible is scripture for all believers as Qur’an is for all humanbeing. So nobody can take possesion of these scriptures only for himself. And nobody should say that his thought is the only true.

The Bible (especially when it comes to Jesus’ time on earth that had been written down in the New Testament) is a product of the Church.

Besides Jesus said : “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Following Jesus’ commandments is THE Straight Path. Anyone or “prophet” saying anything else but this straight path should be rejected.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

God will judge us for our arguments. So we will learn the fact on the Day of Reckoning.

Yes. Jesus (who is God) is the Judge. He said it himself: Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man **comes in his glory **and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left.

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

It is obvious in Qur’an that Jesus did not die on the cross.

Wait a minute. It is not so obvious said Matthew Light. He said ‘the Qur’an does not say that Jesus did not die on the cross, and millions of Muslims accept the historical reality of the crucifixion’. So now, which Muslim you are since according to him millions of Muslims accept the historical reality of the crucifixion (of Jesus)?

Matthew Light:

The Qur’an does not say that Jesus did not die on the cross, and millions of Muslims accept the historical reality of the crucifixion.