Who is the Prophet?

[Matthew_Light]

Because you are Baha’i, not Christian.

Jews would turn around and make the same claim that you don’t believe in the Tanakh, because you follow Jesus instead of Moses.

I would disagree with those Jews, and state that the Christian understanding of the Old Testament is not a disbelief and rejection, but rather a more expansive Revelation that includes it.

Life is much better when people of different religions learn to relate to one another without pronouncing anathema against other’s deepest and most profound beliefs, without using words like “Satanic” and “Antichrist” to refer to other faiths and their founders, and without pronouncing judgments of condemnation upon them. Just because Jesus, Lord of all Creation, pronounced judgment against some leaders of the House of Israel, does not mean we understand the criteria He used and are able to judge likewise.

I notice that is how Pope Francis does not call Muhammad and Islam antichrist and a work of Satan, and what I have read from the CCC fits into that same model of tolerance, goodwill and a suspension of judgments and condemnations of the other great world religions.

As human beings living in a pluralistic society, we can no longer afford treat one another’s beliefs with fear and hatred. Coexistance, peace, acceptance and eventual love and admiration between those of every Faith is God’s will for this age, and it is clear to me that Pope Francis is acting in harmony with and inspired by the Holy Spirit in his words and actions.

 

[Matthew_Light]

millions of Muslims accept the historical reality of the crucifixion (of Jesus)?

All the Alawite Shia, for starters:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites

There are 4+ million Alawite Muslims who accept the crucifixion as a historic reality.

Lots of other Muslims from other denominations throughout history. It is true that most Muslim Tafsir today believes that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. But there is another large group who believes that Jesus survived the crucifixion.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Yes. Jesus (who is God) is the Judge. He said it himself: Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man **comes in his glory **and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left.

MJ

The Muslims believe basically the same thing you are saying here (except for Jesus being God). Including Jesus and the Angels judging the peoples of the earth and separating the sheep and the goats.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Muslims believe basically the same thing you are saying here (except for Jesus being God). Including Jesus and the Angels judging the peoples of the earth and separating the sheep and the goats.

You wrote, “The Muslims believe basically the same thing you are saying here (except for Jesus being God).”

Jesus being God-Incarnate is the most basic of basics of Christianity.

There is NO Christianity if Jesus is NOT God-Incarnate.

God becoming One of us is what Christianity Is.

 

[Matthew_Light]

God becoming One of us is what Christianity Is.

And here I thought Christianity was about following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, and not the esoterics of the nature of the Trinity?

 

[dcana]

You are very keen. The truth may be in somewhere else.

1. I try.
2. Assuming you are talking about the question of the OP, I’m not sure where you got the idea from what I have written that I am implying that “the truth may be somewhere else.” As I said in post #22:

Who is the Prophet? Jesus, the Lord.

As RebeccaJ points out, St. Peter said, speaking to his fellow Israelites (Acts 3:22-26):

Moses said, “The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.” And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came afterwards, also proclaimed these days. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God gave to your fathers, saying to Abraham, “And in your posterity shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness.

He is The Prophet, a prophet being one who is sent by God and speaks on God’s behalf. But He is much more than just a “prophet”, but God, the Son sent by the Father to speak on the Father’s behalf “all that He hears from Him”, and so to reveal Him to the world.

 

[MartinJordan]

The Muslims believe basically the same thing you are saying here (except for Jesus being God). Including Jesus and the Angels judging the peoples of the earth and separating the sheep and the goats.

So they prefer to block out Jesus’ words about coming in his Glory (of God). This means they are heretical so to speak.

MJ

 

[dcana]

Jews would turn around and make the same claim that you don’t believe in the Tanakh, because you follow Jesus instead of Moses.

I would disagree with those Jews, and state that the Christian understanding of the Old Testament is not a disbelief and rejection, but rather a more expansive Revelation that includes it.

Exactly, but I don’t think any Jews would say that. On what basis would they make that claim? We both believe that the Hebrew Scriptures are the Word of God; part of God’s self-revelation to mankind.

Life is much better when people of different religions learn to relate to one another without pronouncing anathema against other’s deepest and most profound beliefs, without using words like “Satanic” and “Antichrist” to refer to other faiths and their founders, and without pronouncing judgments of condemnation upon them.

I have not done this, not even with regards to Mohammad. Only God judges souls.

I notice that is how Pope Francis does not call Muhammad and Islam antichrist and a work of Satan, and what I have read from the CCC fits into that same model of tolerance, goodwill and a suspension of judgments and condemnations of the other great world religions.

1. Pope Francis is in a radically different position than I am.
2. He may not believe this anyway.

As human beings living in a pluralistic society, we can no longer afford treat one another’s beliefs with fear and hatred.

I do not fear or hate Muslims’ beliefs.

Coexistance, peace, acceptance and eventual love and admiration between those of every Faith is God’s will for this age

I agree, but you are not recognizing that I was distinguishing between Muslims and Islam. And I really didn’t say anything much about Islam itself, only that Mohammad was a false prophet. As such, it is a false religion (as I believe that all religions are false, except for the true religion, namely Christianity), though it contains much goodness, which goodness I believe he took from the Bible. You, Matthew, especially being a Baha’i, may not like the statement that I believe that “all other religions are false”, but if you think about it, doesn’t everybody believe this? If you believe a religion is “true”, you believe in all its teachings (or, maybe, almost all - at the very least its fundamental teachings) and become an adherent of it, to the exclusion of all other religions. Since all other religions teach fundamentally different things, they are considered “false” from any adherents’ perspective, in the way I use the term. Just believing in a few (or even many) teachings you like in some particular religion doesn’t mean you think it is “true”. Far from it. If you thought it was “true”, you would join it, would you not? If you thought it was “false” you would leave it. You cannot be an adherent to two different religions at once because all religions teach fundamentally different things from each other, not to mention having completely different rituals, spiritualities, etc.

it is clear to me that Pope Francis is acting in harmony with and inspired by the Holy Spirit in his words and actions.

I believe he is, too.

I also believe the Holy Spirit, who you mention, is God, the third person of the Blessed Trinity. Since you are Baha’i, you do not believe this, since you reject the idea that God is a Trinity of Divine Persons. You advocate for the idea of God as understood by Islam, the source of Baha’ism. You believe such a teaching to be false, and I believe yours to be false. That’s just the fact of the matter. Therefore (and for many other reasons, obviously) you are a Baha’i and I am a Christian.

Upon further consideration, I think it would be for the best that I not participate in this discussion further, nor any others touching on matters dealing with other Abrahamic religions besides Christianity. As far as I can recall, this is the first time I have done so. I believe I lack sufficient charity and I am certain I am much too abrasive. My views on who The Prophet is and who he is not are clear enough anyway. As the old saying goes, “you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.” I’m sure you know that one shouldn’t judge a group of people by one bad member.

God’s blessings to all our Muslim and Baha’i brothers on CAF. Please feel at home here.

 

[MartinJordan]

And here I thought Christianity was about following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, and not the esoterics of the nature of the Trinity?

Christianity is about the Triune God. But when God became man we now can call God Abba father. It is a beautiful thing and our Joy will be complete if we declare Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit continues to guide the church on our journey to Heaven. Amen!

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

Life is much better when people of different religions learn to relate to one another without pronouncing anathema against other’s deepest and most profound beliefs,

Agreed. But we all do that in reality. Muslims call Christians ‘shirk’ for believing in the divinity of Christ. Thus we are the ‘infidels’. Sure you know its connotation. You should find out what they say about an important Christian saint, St. Paul.
Matthew Light:

without using words like “Satanic” and “Antichrist” to refer to other faiths and their founders,

I hope you know the difference between anti-Christ and the Antichrist.

It is easy enough to know what is satanic and antichrists. Christians should know them otherwise how are they going to recognize them? They are taught early in their lives as to what is satanic and who are the antichrists; and then to beware of them, not to fall into their trickery and temptation.
Matthew Light:

I notice that is how Pope Francis does not call Muhammad and Islam antichrist and a work of Satan, and what I have read from the CCC fits into that same model of tolerance, goodwill and a suspension of judgments and condemnations of the other great world religions.

But how do you know that he does not think of them as one?

The Pope calls for respect and dialogue with the Muslims; not that he is teaching that Muhammad is right or a true prophet to be followed by Christians.

It is the same for Catholics too. We think the Pope is doing the right and sensible things. But if you ask the Pope the question whether Muhammad is right and a true prophet, he has to give you a candid answer too from the doctrine of his faith. And it would not be any different from what we are saying here though he would definitely be more diplomatic as he is a political figure too and how his words could be distorted by the media.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Muslims believe basically the same thing you are saying here (except for Jesus being God). Including Jesus and the Angels judging the peoples of the earth and separating the sheep and the goats.

With due respect, I think you should try to refrain from giving a definitive teaching of Islam as your opinion of what they believe may not be not be agreeable to them as your interpretation Surah 4:157 showed. Let them speak for themselves.

Not that you shouldn’t but we would be going around in a goose chase only to be repudiated by a Muslim later.

 

[Tom_Baum]

And here I thought Christianity was about following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, and not the esoterics of the nature of the Trinity?

That is where you are wrong, in my opinion, because it is ALL about what God did for ALL of us by becoming One of us.

If Jesus is NOT God in the flesh, so to speak, that Jesus is just One among many, rather than “The Unique One”.

And if by “the esoterics of the nature of the Trinity”, (esoterica: things understood by or meant for a select few), you mean how many or how few “understand”, in my opinion, you are wrong again, it is about what God did, not only in becoming One of us, but what God did after becoming One of us, NOT whether or not a lot or a few understand it at all.

There have been quite a few “Christs”, which means “anointed by God”, but there has either only been One Person Who Is God-Incarnate or none and this “fact” is the whole basis of Christianity because without this “fact”, Christianity simply does NOT exist.

It is my opinion that the “Chosen People” were chosen so that God would have a “way” for the Incarnation, and all that it entails, to happen.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Agreed. But we all do that in reality.

Some people do, and some people don’t.

Muslims call Christians ‘shirk’ for believing in the divinity of Christ.

Some Muslims do that, it is true. And I call them out on that on other boards (the ones who do that here get the boot really quickly).

Thus we are the ‘infidels’.

Right. There are Muslims who do this, and it’s certainly not acceptable (nor is the violence we see from Muslim extremists acceptable in the least!)

Sure you know its connotation. You should find out what they say about an important Christian saint, St. Paul.

You are right, many Muslims say awful stuff about the blessed and profoundly spiritually perceptive Saint Paul.

I hope you know the difference between anti-Christ and the Antichrist.

Me too. I continually have to set my mind and heart on distinguishing between that within me which serves Christ, and that which opposes Christ.

It is easy enough to know what is satanic and antichrists.

I feel it is very challenging.

Christians should know them otherwise how are they going to recognize them? They are taught early in their lives as to what is satanic and who are the antichrists; and then to beware of them, not to fall into their trickery and temptation.

I would offer the suggestion that the history of the behavior of many Christians does in fact show us that it is very easy to mistake that which is anti-Christ from that which serves Christ.

I will list a few examples: the Crusades, the Inquisition, wars between Catholics and Protestants.

I think it is very EASY to believe that we are right and others are wrong and misled and even evil - to the point where we will even draw swords against them (or shoot a drone missile at them).

It is the same for Catholics too. We think the Pope is doing the right and sensible things. But if you ask the Pope the question whether Muhammad is right and a true prophet, he has to give you a candid answer too from the doctrine of his faith.

I would suspect very much that the Pope would say that Catholics have great respect for Muslims and Islam, that Christ is Lord, and we seek peace and goodwill with people of every faith, and that we are all children of God. In other words, I bet that he would not answer the question with a criticism of Islam.

 

[Matthew_Light]

You, Matthew, especially being a Baha’i, may not like the statement that I believe that “all other religions are false”, but if you think about it, doesn’t everybody believe this?

No, I’ve met many other Baha’is, Catholics and people of other religions who do not view religion in that way.

If you believe a religion is “true”, you believe in all its teachings (or, maybe, almost all - at the very least its fundamental teachings) and become an adherent of it, to the exclusion of all other religions.

Becoming an adherent of a religion (or remaining one) doesn’t imply that you think all other religions are false.

If one is walking on a path up a mountain, someone else might walk a different path up the same mountain. You both end up at the same place.

Since all other religions teach fundamentally different things, they are considered “false” from any adherents’ perspective, in the way I use the term. Just believing in a few (or even many) teachings you like in some particular religion doesn’t mean you think it is “true”. Far from it. If you thought it was “true”, you would join it, would you not?

I don’t think the Founders of the great religions taught “fundamentally different things”. I see them teaching what was appropriate for the time and place they appeared.

For example, Jesus abolished the law of divorce. It was appropriate in the time of Moses, but at the coming of Jesus, social conditions made it preferable to ban divorce. That does not mean that Jesus was in conflict with Moses!

If you thought it was “false” you would leave it. You cannot be an adherent to two different religions at once because all religions teach fundamentally different things from each other, not to mention having completely different rituals, spiritualities, etc.

I can meet any five people of any single Faith, and all five will likely have different, mutually exclusive beliefs, understandings, and spiritualities. Belonging to a particular religion does not turn us into interchangable drones marching lockstep with our co-religionists. I find many Catholics I see eye-to-eye with in almost all things, and many Baha’is whose approach to my own religion bewilders me.

I also believe the Holy Spirit, who you mention, is God, the third person of the Blessed Trinity. Since you are Baha’i, you do not believe this, since you reject the idea that God is a Trinity of Divine Persons.

I actually accept the Trinity and its Divine nature. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all aspects of God as He manifests Himself to humanity.

Of course all human conceptions of God are limited, and woefully incomplete. None of us can understand God in His Essence, only God as He shows Himself to us.

You advocate for the idea of God as understood by Islam, the source of Baha’ism.

Islam is not the source of the Baha’i Faith, any more than Judaism is the source of Christianity, or Christianity is the source of Islam.

You believe such a teaching to be false,

Actually I don’t.

Upon further consideration, I think it would be for the best that I not participate in this discussion further, nor any others touching on matters dealing with other Abrahamic religions besides Christianity. As far as I can recall, this is the first time I have done so. I believe I lack sufficient charity and I am certain I am much too abrasive. My views on who The Prophet is and who he is not are clear enough anyway. As the old saying goes, “you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.” I’m sure you know that one shouldn’t judge a group of people by one bad member.

I think you have plenty of charity in you . I hope you’ll continue to participate in discussions of other religions.

God’s blessings to all our Muslim and Baha’i brothers on CAF. Please feel at home here.

The blessings of Christ upon you as well, my Catholic brother! I can feel your charity of heart in your words. Thank you!

 

[Tom_Baum]

Islam is not the source of the Baha’i Faith, any more than Judaism is the source of Christianity, or Christianity is the source of Islam.

Judaism might not be the “source”, as in ultimate, since God is the Source of both Judaism and Christianity, however, Judaism not only flows right into Christianity but it was/is a Jew Who Christianity is based on.

One could even say that Jesus is the “reason” for Judaism and that Jesus is the “reason” for Christianity.

The “fact” of the Incarnation points back to Judaism and forward to Christianity.

Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew and ALL of Christianity is based on the Incarnation of Jesus, which means that Jesus is God-Incarnate.

And to repost what I posted in post # 62:

"Jesus being God-Incarnate is the most basic of basics of Christianity.

There is NO Christianity if Jesus is NOT God-Incarnate.

God becoming One of us is what Christianity Is."

 

[hasantas]

Judaism might not be the “source”, as in ultimate, since God is the Source of both Judaism and Christianity, however, Judaism not only flows right into Christianity but it was/is a Jew Who Christianity is based on.

One could even say that Jesus is the “reason” for Judaism and that Jesus is the “reason” for Christianity.

The “fact” of the Incarnation points back to Judaism and forward to Christianity.

Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew and ALL of Christianity is based on the Incarnation of Jesus, which means that Jesus is God-Incarnate.

And to repost what I posted in post # 62:

"Jesus being God-Incarnate is the most basic of basics of Christianity.

There is NO Christianity if Jesus is NOT God-Incarnate.

God becoming One of us is what Christianity Is."

You restrain religion. Religions were used to be through prophets but not directly from God. And if Jesus is not God but a prophet then what will Christianity lose? Nothing. Because prophets came in the name of God. So even if Jesus is God but that do not make Christianity more holy. Christianity is equal to other holy religions because the source is the same. And the issue Jesus to be God is doctrine of the Church. We all know Church had made many mistakes. If Church declare that Jesus was a prophet but not God then Church will not lose anything but it will gain many things. Church will win loose to explain religion which consist of mysteries.

God does not incarnate but God create matter and time. Being bound to matter and time even for a very short time cannot be reconcile with eternity. That part time of “incarnation” cannot be reconcile with an infinite God. That is so obvious. That cannot be explained in that way “if God wants He can do what ever wish”.

There are many conflicts in Church doctrines. Christians should see these. Also there are many groups in Islam too who interpret religion in such difficult and wrong ways. But most of Muslims could go on the straight way.

I think Christianity will be more strong if it correct some doctrines. I wish it will be so.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You restrain religion. Religions were used to be through prophets but not directly from God. And if Jesus is not God but a prophet then what will Christianity lose? Nothing. Because prophets came in the name of God. So even if Jesus is God but that do not make Christianity more holy. Christianity is equal to other holy religions because the source is the same. And the issue Jesus to be God is doctrine of the Church. We all know Church had made many mistakes. If Church declare that Jesus was a prophet but not God then Church will not lose anything but it will gain many things. Church will win loose to explain religion which consist of mysteries.

God does not incarnate but God create matter and time. Being bound to matter and time even for a very short time cannot be reconcile with eternity. That part time of “incarnation” cannot be reconcile with an infinite God. That is so obvious. That cannot be explained in that way “if God wants He can do what ever wish”.

There are many conflicts in Church doctrines. Christians should see these. Also there are many groups in Islam too who interpret religion in such difficult and wrong ways. But most of Muslims could go on the straight way.

I think Christianity will be more strong if it correct some doctrines. I wish it will be so.

It doesn’t matter if you or anyone else agrees with it or not but if Jesus is NOT God-Incarnate than Christianity does not exist.

Christianity is God becoming One of us, it is that simple.

Just because you say God can not do something, does not mean that God can not do it.

One could say that God cemented God’s relationship with humanity by becoming One of us in the Incarnation and God became One of us for ALL of us.

You may not agree with it but wouldn’t you say that Christianity, maybe not all but quite a few who consider themselves Christian, teaches that God became One of us in the Incarnation?

Wouldn’t you also say that Islam denies that God became One of us in the Incarnation?

Sounds to me that one of the most basic of beliefs of Christianity (Incarnation) and Islam (the Incarnation is not true at all) are totally at odds with each other, doesn’t it to you?

 

[hasantas]

It doesn’t matter if you or anyone else agrees with it or not but if Jesus is NOT God-Incarnate than Christianity does not exist.

Christianity is God becoming One of us, it is that simple.

Just because you say God can not do something, does not mean that God can not do it.

One could say that God cemented God’s relationship with humanity by becoming One of us in the Incarnation and God became One of us for ALL of us.

You may not agree with it but wouldn’t you say that Christianity, maybe not all but quite a few who consider themselves Christian, teaches that God became One of us in the Incarnation?

Wouldn’t you also say that Islam denies that God became One of us in the Incarnation?

Sounds to me that one of the most basic of beliefs of Christianity (Incarnation) and Islam (the Incarnation is not true at all) are totally at odds with each other, doesn’t it to you?

Once God had became manifestation to Moses. But that was not through incarnation. But such hing like mirror image which we cannot comprehend the true nature. So to say God had incarnation is an unreasonable way.

 

[Servant19]

Once God had became manifestation to Moses. But that was not through incarnation. But such hing like mirror image which we cannot comprehend the true nature. So to say God had incarnation is an unreasonable way.

Hasantas, I am interested in where you picked up the “mirror image” analogy you mention above. Is it in the Quran or Hadith anywhere at all please?

Thankyou

.

 

[Ignatius]

The Prophet is a book by Khalil Gibran.