Who is the Rock?

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Because the Bible is inerrant a singe verse that could be interpreted that “Peter is the Rock” is **not consistent ** with the other verses that state:

Deuteronomy 32:3,4

3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD;
ascribe ye greatnesss unto our God.

4 He is theRock, his work is perfect;
for all his ways are judgement:
a God of truth and without iniquity,
just and right is he.

Isaiah 44:8
Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told it to you from of old and declared it? And you are My witnesses! Is there a God besides Me? There is no other** Rock**; I know not any.

2 Samuel 22:2 (King James Version)

2 And he said, The LORD is my rock,
and my fortress, and my deliverer;

**Pslam 18:31 **(King James Version)

31 For who is God save the LORD?
or whos a rock save our God?

1 Corinthians 10:4 (King James Version)

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink;
for they drank of that **spiritual Rock **that
followed them; and that **ROCK **was Christ.

1 Peter 2:8 (King James Version) Speaking of Jesus

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,
even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient;
whereunto also they were appointed.

**Psalm 18 ( King James Bible ) **

1 I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

2 The LORD is my** rock**, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a** rock save **our God?

46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be** my rock**; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Peter was not the Rock. The revelation of Jesus as the Son is that ROCK
Jesus asked his disciples what would they think he is. Simon Peter said, Jesus is the Son of the living God.

Jesus said, “upon this** ROCK**”, I will build my church and the gate of hell will not prevail against it.

**ROCK **here is the REVELATION. Because many did not see Jesus as the Son of the living God.

Isaiah 44:8 (King James Version)

8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses.** Is there a God beside me**? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Matt 7:21-27
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the** rock**.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell–and great and complete was the fall of it.

As a former Catholic I say this in** love **that you may come to know the simple truth of Gods salvation, by placing your faith in Christ alone.

** Ephesians 2:8** (King James Version)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
SavedByJesus said:
As a former Catholic I say this in** love **that you may come to know the simple truth of Gods salvation, by placing your faith in Christ alone.

** Ephesians 2:8** (King James Version)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Click to expand...
AMEN! I hope you will stick around to see your faith journey come full circle. These are Catholic words you preach!

I share this link in love for you so that you may come to know the whole truth. May God continue to guide you on your journey, SavedbyJesus!
catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Please don’t be afraid to keep learning.
***“they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” ***(John 4:23-24)
 
Understand that in the verse, ‘upon this rock’, the Lord emphasizes THIS, for He is speaking of Himself. Anyway; See also Matthew 18:18 where the Lord tells his 11 disciples, to include Peter, to go into the world and to preach and to do ALL things, not some, not most, ALL, that He has taught them. Ok, so where’s the confusion? If the Lord specifically tells us to do ALL things that He has taught, would there be any controversy as to what authority Peter actually had? Would Peter have been fooled into thinking that he could now change days, and doctrines? I submit that Peter, same as Paul, was a Rabbi who loved the Lord and would NOT seek to negate any of His teachings, nor the Fathers, for they are ONE.

That I know God to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, His Holy Word is consistent, timely, and never changing. Motivation for the truth would be, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book [Revelation 22:18-19]. But scarier still is the defining of the anti-christ; “…he shall think to change times and laws:…” Daniel 7:25 I’d hate to think that our most notable of all religions on earth be guilty of that! We need to be very careful not to be disobedient, nor disrespectful to our Maker. Remember He said to us, that ‘if we love Him, we WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS’, not our own, but His!

So, what laws am I speaking of and how did the Catholic Church conveniently capitalize on Kefa (Peter) some 300 years later to be their pope?

The first law to be changed; The 4th Commandment of God, The Sabbath, Gods Holiest Day. Be Blessed that you know His Holy Sabbath, the 7th Day described in His Holy Book. Many believe, while their leaders validate Sunday, the 1st day of the week, being ignorant of Bible teaching, but they should know, “Her priests have violated My Law, and have profaned Mine Holy things; they have put no difference between the Holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from My Sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.” Ezekiel 22:26

Are not the commandments our basis of life before the Marriage? Messiah clearly confirming the Sabbath mitzvah, “You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between Me and you through ALL your generations; so that you will know that I AM Adonai, who sets YOU apart for ME. Therefore you are to keep my Shabbats, because it is set apart for you. Everyone who treats it as ordinary must be put to death.” Does this sound any different than, murder you die, adultery you die!

I apologize for not explaining some of the above terms: Adonai is God; Commandment (denoting harsh and punishing) was the translation for the Hebrew word mitzvah which are instructions of honor and privilege to achieve.
My suggestion to all is ‘take heed that no man deceive you’, read for yourself and HE will have you understand what HE WILLS. Trust HIM, not man. Follow HIM, not man. For the time is sooner than you think, Make your life count for something.
 
Jesus is **THE ROCK **and our salvation.

KJV
2Sa 22:2
2 And he said, The Lord is my** rock**, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
KJV
2Sa 22:3
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
KJV
2Sa 22:47
A psalm of thanksgiving
47 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
KJV
Ps 18:2
2 The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
KJV
Ps 18:46
46 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
KJV
Ps 28:1
1 Unto thee will I cry, O Lord my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.
KJV
Ps 31:3
3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name’s sake lead me, and guide me.
KJV
Ps 42:9
9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
KJV
Ps 62:2
2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
KJV
Ps 62:6
6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
KJV
Ps 71:3
3 Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.

KJV
Ps 92:15
15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.​

Bible Explorer “the rock”
KJV
Isa 2:10
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.
KJV
Isa 17:10
10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
KJV
Isa 51:1
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the **rock ** whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Bible Explorer"the** rock**"
KJV
Isa 2:10
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.
KJV
Isa 17:10
10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
KJV
Isa 51:1
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

I do not believe for** one minute that Peter is the rock. That Rock ** ALONE is Jesus Christ.
 
SavedByJesus said:
Jesus is **THE ROCK **and our salvation.

KJV
2Sa 22:2
2 And he said, The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
KJV
2Sa 22:3
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
KJV
2Sa 22:47
A psalm of thanksgiving
47 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
KJV
Ps 18:2
2 The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
KJV
Ps 18:46
46 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
KJV
Ps 28:1
1 Unto thee will I cry, O Lord my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.
KJV
Ps 31:3
3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name’s sake lead me, and guide me.
KJV
Ps 42:9
9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
KJV
Ps 62:2
2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
KJV
Ps 62:6
6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
KJV
Ps 71:3
3 Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.

KJV
Ps 92:15
15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.​

Bible Explorer “the rock”
KJV
Isa 2:10
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.
KJV
Isa 17:10
10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
KJV
Isa 51:1
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Bible Explorer"the rock"
KJV
Isa 2:10
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.
KJV
Isa 17:10
10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
KJV
Isa 51:1
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

I do not believe for** one minute that Peter is the rock. That Rock ** ALONE is Jesus Christ
Click to expand...
Jesus is indeed the Rock and Peters faith in Jesus is the Rock.
 
Peter is the rock on which the Church is built.
This does not contradict with the rest of the Scriptures.

Matt 16:18 And I say to you, you are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church.

Both Petra and Petros at the time of Christ meant rock. One was feminine so Peter got the masculine one, as he was obviously male. The female form was however more common so it was used to follow to illustrate that Peter really is the rock on which the Church was built.

Jesus spoke Aramaic so he would have said Kepha…kepha. We see this in John 1:42 where Christ renames Simon Cephas (the Greek transliteration of Kepha). Rock.

Envia and Lithos are the Greek and Aramaic words for stone btw.

Ephesians 2:10 (this verse always seems left off)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

If we don’t walk in these works??? The above are not the works of the old Law. The new Law is fufilled in the work of love.
 
Hello Canto,

Respectfully I need to disagree.

I have heard this argument many times but it doesn’t hold up to scripture. One either beleives the infallible word of God or does not.

If you are denying Christ as the ROCK and instead wish to give this title to Peter than you are putting your faith in the RC church’s** tradition **and of man and he cannot save you.

The** Rock **he speaks of is the fact that he JESUS…is the Messiah…Roman Catholicisn didn’t exist for another 300 years. There is **no connection **between the disciple Peter and the RCC other than the connection invented by the RCC.

This is a subject of the whole disertation from scripture if you read the entire text.
 
Dear Saved,

Hope the best for you. Keep in mind His church is there to help you if and when you desire. For me, I really enjoy receiving the sacraments again. Take care.
 
“The RCC didn’t exist for another 300 years.”

Do you know what a primary sourced historical document is? If so, perhaps you should reserach some. To state that the Catholic Church didn’t exist until the mid fourth century is stupidity and historical illiteracy. :rotfl:

Origins of Peter as Pope:

catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

Peter and the Papacy:

catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Peter the Rock:

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Apostolic Succession:

catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

Peters Successors:

catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp

:knight2: David :knight1:
 
saved by Jesus,

are you sure you don’t want to put a wikipedia link up for the poor lost souls on here?

David
 
saved,

Do you have a primary source document from the first fifteen centuries of Christianity that discusses developing a “personal relationship with Jesus?” I’m willing to bet you don’t, as the idea is as foreign to the Church fathers as was electricity.

David
 
A bone of contention between protestants and Catholics for centuries.
 
And how does this support the Catholic Church?

And this argument supports the RCC in what way?

And if the RCC has any such document do you think they would really allow anyone to see it?

And what knowledge of any such document do you have and would you be able to read it?

I doubt that you have knowledge of any documentation whether it exists or doesn’t exist.

Matthew 5:11-12 (King James Version)

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you

**I realize this is a sensitive issue. **

But we all need to consider the consequences of perhaps being deceived - an enternity in Hell

Love requires that we tell people the truth in love, whatever the consequences.

God guarantees we will be persecuted for standing up for a biblical position as it won’t be popular because so many people base their faith in a religion…a “feeling” or “experience” within their church…not on God.

**God words ** not man’s word and man’s tradition must always be our standard. When mans words contradict GOD’s word we are commanded to keep God’s word and reject the false teaching. As a witness for Jesus Christ we are are to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth…

Remember the time in which we live…we should feel the necessity to contend ferventy for the faith and warn others.

To be a witness for Jesus is to declare He is who he said** He is **…to declare His life, death and resurrection are necessary and sufficient to save sinners completely and forever.
 
“And how does this support the Catholic Church?”

How do primary source documents demonstrating the acknowledgement of Peters Primacy and the apostolitic succession that proceeded therefrom, as quoted by some of the greatest minds in the history of our religion? I was hoping you’d figure that one out on your own. The idea that Peter WASN’T the rock the Church is built on is completely foreign until Luther, Calvin and company created their own religions within the last 500 years.

David
 
Unless, of course, you are implying that you are single handedly more intelligent and competent at biblical interpretation, exegesis, and historical interpretation then those men listed on my references.

David
 
saved,

I’m still waiting on that primary source document promoting a “personal relationship with Jesus” from the first fifteen centuries of Christianity.

David
 
SavedByJesus said:
Hello Canto,

Respectfully I need to disagree.

I have heard this argument many times but it doesn’t hold up to scripture. One either beleives the infallible word of God or does not.

If you are denying Christ as the ROCK and instead wish to give this title to Peter than you are putting your faith in the RC church’s** tradition **and of man and he cannot save you.

The** Rock **he speaks of is the fact that he JESUS…is the Messiah…Roman Catholicisn didn’t exist for another 300 years. There is **no connection **between the disciple Peter and the RCC other than the connection invented by the RCC.

This is a subject of the whole disertation from scripture if you read the entire text.
Click to expand...
I am not denying that Christ is the rock
Christ who is God made Peter the rock on which the Church would be built
The Greek is plain, Jesus renames Peter Rock
The second rock on Greek gramatical grounds refers back the the first Rock.

Peter had the Keys as did his successors
He was Bishop of Rome (later nicknamed papa, pope)

Within the first 100 years of Christ’s Passion St Ignatius a disciple of St John had the following to say (note he does not introduce the term Catholic, it is already in use. He wrote at Antioch where believers were first called Christians, Catholic was used to distinguish from the heretics)

‘Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church’.

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. . . . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”

He also noted the primacy of Rome

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Clement of Alexandria c.215 spoke of the ancient Church being Catholic

" . . . There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous holy ] according to Gods ordinance… In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church. The Church brings together the faithful ] by the will of the one God through the one Lord, into the unity of the one faith . . . "

Irenaeus c.115 spoke of the sucession of the Bishop of Rome

" . . . The blessed Apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed Apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the Apostles still echoing in his ears ], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone in this ], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the Apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the Apostles . . . " - Irenaeus (Against Heresies) c.115 (Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St John.)

He also noted the primacy of Rome

With that church (Rome), because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian too noted Rome’s Primacy

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

Ambrose of Milan noted that Peter is called the Rock

[Christ] made answer: “You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . .” Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Athanasius noted

" . . . But beyond these [Scriptural] sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the fathers kept. Upon this the Church is founded, and he who should fall away from it would not be Christian, and should no longer be called . . . " Athanasius c.297-373

Tertullian remarked

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed” (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

So those were the historical words of some of the early Christians Are they right or are you right and who gets to decide, and with what authority?
 
At the Council of Rome in 382 AD The Bishop of Rome (Pope) Damascus decreed a 73 book canon for the Bible and there after quoted Matt 16:18+. There was no canon before this time. Martin Luther would later remark…

“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.” - Martin Luther, commentary on St John

St Augustine said if it were not for the Catholic Church he would not believe the Gospels.

He also noted “Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?” (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).
 
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