Who is the Supreme head of your LOCAL Church?

[rad]

What other option do you propose for an answer to the question “Who/what is the highest VISIBLE authority in your local Church?”

I simply don’t think that this poll can be asked of Catholics and Orthodox simultaneously. The Orthodox are already precluded from choosing one option -the Pope- and that skews the poll amd makes its results untrustworthy.

The highest VISIBLE authority in the local Church for the Orthodox is the ruling bishop.

The highest SUPREME authority is Jesus Christ.

 

[Madaglan]

Ooops. I accidentally voted without reading the OP. Sorry!

 

[mardukm]

The highest VISIBLE authority in the local Church for the Orthodox is the ruling bishop.

The highest SUPREME authority is Jesus Christ.

Same with Catholics.

So what makes you think the results would be skewed?

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

Ooops. I accidentally voted without reading the OP. Sorry!

Wala problema.

I opened up the thread to participation by Orthodox.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

Same with Catholics.

So what makes you think the results would be skewed?

Because any Orthodox who votes for one of the options is, to be quite blunt, either lying or ignorant of his Church.

1. Is the Pope the Supreme authority? Answer: NO
2. Is the Patriarch the Supreme authority? Answer: NO
3. Is the “Patriarchal Synod” the Supreme authority? Answer: NO

So the only way for any Orthodox participation is to choose none of the options.

 

[mardukm]

Because any Orthodox who votes for one of the options is, to be quite blunt, either lying or ignorant of his Church.

1. Is the Pope the Supreme authority? Answer: NO
2. Is the Patriarch the Supreme authority? Answer: NO
3. Is the “Patriarchal Synod” the Supreme authority? Answer: NO

So the only way for any Orthodox participation is to choose none of the options.

The thread doesn’t ask any of the questions you have proposed. No wonder you feel the way you do.

Obviously, a few Orthodox posters have easily understood the polling question for what it means. You have a tendency to exaggerate things, brother.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. Would you mind replying to my post#14? I need to go, but I will be back tomorrow.

 

[rad]

The thread doesn’t ask any of the questions you have proposed. No wonder you feel the way you do.

Obviously, a few Orthodox posters have easily understood the polling question for what it means. You have a tendency to exaggerate things, brother.

I understand the poll questions perfectly and what you are trying to achieve. The questions in the poll only make sense in a Catholic context of ecclesiology.

Believe me, the Orthodox cannot choose any of the options, neither the Pope, nor the Patriarch nor the “Patriarchal Synod” (I do not really understand what you mean by the latter term).

 

[rad]

Obviously, a few Orthodox posters have easily understood the polling question for what it means. You have a tendency to exaggerate things, brother…

Do I? Only one Orthodox person has participated in the poll. How do you make “one” into “a few” if not by exaggeration?

 

[mardukm]

I understand the poll questions perfectly and what you are trying to achieve.

Riiiiight. Which is why your list of questions above doesn’t reflect anything of my intention.

The questions in the poll only make sense in a Catholic context of ecclesiology.

Yes, whatever gets your goat.

Believe me, the Orthodox cannot choose any of the options, neither the Pope, nor the Patriarch nor the “Patriarchal Synod”

Fine, then they won’t participate. Case closed. No big deal.

(I do not really understand what you mean by the latter term).

And you claim to understand everything perfectly.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Do I? Only one Orthodox person has participated in the poll.

Really?

How do you make “one” into “a few” if not by exaggeration?

How about by the natural progression of events when one and then ANOTHER comes. Ever thought of that?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I understand the poll questions perfectly and what you are trying to achieve. The questions in the poll only make sense in a Catholic context of ecclesiology.

Well now, this is a Catholic forum after all, what kind of ecclesiology would you expect from us?

 

[rad]

Well now, this is a Catholic forum after all, what kind of ecclesiology would you expect from us?

Exactly the point I am making too! Have you read any of Marduk’s explanations of his vision of Catholic ecclesiology and in particular his restrictions on the universal authority of the papacy? I feel that it is not in synch with Catholic teaching. But I could be wrong - except I think I am not wrong because the Catholics who have interacted with M on this issue in the past have also advised him that his idiosyncratic approach is not in line with Catholic ecclesiology and not in line with canon law on papal authority.

 

[rad]

Well now, this is a Catholic forum after all, what kind of ecclesiology would you expect from us?

It seems to be confused.

The question for the poll is " Who is the Supreme head of your Church - the Pope or the Patriarch?

There is a 50 - 50 split in the voting. People don’t seem to know the Church’s teaching on the matter.

So that is evidence that we cannot really put too much weight on the ecclesiology that people are expressing here.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It seems to be confused.

The question for the poll is " Who is the Supreme head of your Church - the Pope or the Patriarch?

There is a 50 - 50 split in the voting. People don’t seem to know the Church’s teaching on the matter.

So that is evidence that we cannot really put too much weight on the ecclesiology that people are expressing here.

Seems that some people might not agree with what I think you think “Supreme head” means. I believe that you take “Supreme head” to mean ultimate authority, not everyone does that.

I believe that the Supreme head of the Melkite Church is the patriarch Gregory III of Antioch and all the East. While the pope may have authority he is not the Supreme head.

 

[eelpis]

King Henry VIII Just kidding.

Sorry, I just couldn’t help myself.

 

[Formosus]

Some of the participants were latins, so perhaps they voted Pope because he is their patriarch . Hence the split.

 

[Diak]

I think the terminology is part of the problem. “Universal” and “particular” may be better descriptive terms.

There is structure and hierarchy in all of creation, ordained by God Himself. The Church is no exception. Order and hierarchy do not equate to submission or slavery or despotic rule of the universal over those in obedience.

The head of my Eparchy is my Eparchial bishop; the head of my Metropolia is our Metropolitan; the head of our Particular Church is His Beatitude +Lubomyr, who is in full communion and recognizes the primacy of the Universal Pontiff, Benedict XVI.

 

[mardukm]

Some of the participants were latins, so perhaps they voted Pope because he is their patriarch . Hence the split.

The split is resulting from the fact that:

Exactly as you have stated, that most of those who voted “Pope” are Latins. The few Easterns have legitimately voted “Pope” because they come from Metropolical Sees which does not have a Patriarch.

We have had three Orthodox participants and they all voted “Patriarch/Patriarchal Synod.” Apparently, either the intent of the question was clear enough for them from the outset, or they read through the thread first and understood my explanation of the intent of the question - which is, “WITHIN your Patriarchate, who/what is the highest authority for the internal affairs of your Church.”

As you might notice, I asked the Moderator to change the Title to add the word “LOCAL” to it. Brother Diak noted that perhaps the word “particular” might have been more appropriate. However, as I wanted ALL Eastern and Oriental Christians to participate (Catholic and Orthodox), I wanted to use a word that both Catholics AND Orthodox would more readily recognize, and I don’t believe “particular Church” is part of the normal Orthodox jargon (I also wanted to make sure the title would fit ).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[eelpis]

I’m Latin and I didn’t vote. I just had a reminiscence of the Church in England under Henry VIII.

I actually wonder how you get this together with the pope’s supremacy?

He has got full and immediate jurisdiction in the Church Universal, not just in the Latin church.

If you’d have phrased it “particular church” there would be a difference. Then even I could say that, here my bishop is the head.

 

[wynd]

However, as I wanted ALL Eastern and Oriental Christians to participate (Catholic and Orthodox), I wanted to use a word that both Catholics AND Orthodox would more readily recognize, and I don’t believe “particular Church” is part of the normal Orthodox jargon (I also wanted to make sure the title would fit ).

Hi Marduk,

I thought you specified in the OP that you only wanted Eastern/Oriental Catholics (not Orthodox) to participate in the poll. I will vote but I don’t want to skew your data.