Who killed Jesus and why?

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**What does this have to do with the topic? No one said God doesn’t make His wrath known. **

Even the Church doesn’t attempt to interpret the Book of Revelation so I’m certainly not going to.
The wrath of God was poured on Christ on the cross for those who are His, and the remaining wrath is comming on those who do not know God through Christ (revelation). Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to escape the comming day of wrath.
 
I think the focus on who killed Jesus is to grow in knowledge in what Christ did on our behalf, so we can grow in our love and affection for God. It’s been a wonderful time discussing these things with all of you today. All of you blessed my day. Christianity is about Christ and Him crucified on behalf of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:2

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
I would feel a lot better if you believed that Christ died giving you the gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him and not being punished. Then I would know you truly believe what you just said.
 
The wrath of God was poured on Christ on the cross for those who are His, and the remaining wrath is comming on those who do not know God through Christ (revelation). Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to escape the comming day of wrath.
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:7
He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 
I would feel a lot better if you believed that Christ died giving you the gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him and not being punished. Then I would know you truly believe what you just said.
It’s time to shut the computer down. But one last question. What are you saved from?
 
Okay, what’s this imputation and is it a two way exchange?
The way I understand it is that sin, whose wages is death, is legally imputed from those having sin to the unblemished sacrifice while it is alive (priest lays hands on the sacrifice while he confesses sins of the people over it). The people are then freed from their sin, and the perfect sacrifice is laden with sin. The wages of sin is death so the life of the sacrifice is taken, the blood witnessing to the fact that the sacrifice really died. I don’t think I understand two-way imputation, unless when the people have their sin taken away this is a kind of reverse imputation…of something…I dunno 😃
 
The way I understand it is that sin, whose wages is death, is legally imputed from those having sin to the unblemished sacrifice while it is alive (priest lays hands on the sacrifice while he confesses sins of the people over it). The people are then freed from their sin, and the perfect sacrifice is laden with sin. The wages of sin is death so the life of the sacrifice is taken, the blood witnessing to the fact that the sacrifice really died. I don’t think I understand two-way imputation, unless when the people have their sin taken away this is a kind of reverse imputation…of something…I dunno 😃
Well, there’s always tomorrow. 😉
 
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:7
He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
**Jesus is speaking of the wrath of God on the sinners. No one has ever said there wouldn’t be wrath for sinners. **

What we’re trying to tell you is Jesus’ atonement on the cross saved us from God’s wrath if we accept it. That doesn’t mean Jesus took the wrath for us, it means he made the ulitmate atonement for us because there is no way we could atone enough for our sins on our own. We’d surely go to Hell if He hadn’t come and saved us.

Why do you continue to need to read wrath into Jesus’ atonement on the cross?
 
Hi
Jesus said there is no greater love then when someone lays down his life for a friend. Christ also told his apostles,> I no longer call you slaves but friends. Jesus being of one will with the Father ultimately is saying to them and us I am God ]… And directs the Apostles to teach this to the whole world.

Jesus on the cross is the ultimate love presented to us at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in every catholic church every day, all around the world.

The cross represents also what sin does to us in human terms.
And He expects us to lay down our lives for Him in the death and ressurection of Baptism,and indeed even in death, as witness to the truth of Jesus, promised to us in John’s gospel.

Peace, onenow1:coffee:
 
Do you determine truth by the Quran? I determine truth by the Holy Bible.
Hi

The Bible is **neither Word of God **revealed on Jesus, nor Word of Jesus as he never dictated it to anybody. In my opinion it is not even an authentic book of history pure; as it won’t fit on the strict secular history criteria.

If you are to determine truth with NTBible; then Jesus did not determine truth with these accounts written only afterwards. I think you should use the same tools to determine truth as used by Jesus or Moses or Abraham or Adam etc. Else may be you get lost.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
 
Hi

The Bible is **neither Word of God **revealed on Jesus, nor Word of Jesus as he never dictated it to anybody. In my opinion it is not even an authentic book of history pure; as it won’t fit on the strict secular history criteria.

If you are to determine truth with NTBible; then Jesus did not determine truth with these accounts written only afterwards. I think you should use the same tools to determine truth as used by Jesus or Moses or Abraham or Adam etc. Else may be you get lost.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
The bible is not a history book nor scientific book. The bible is the book of faith. But, at least, things mentioned in the bible is proven by the overall teaching AND the FRUIT of the teaching of Christianity. Simple example I see, and everybody else can see is the fact that St. Bernadette and Padre Pio body which not decomposed without any mummification.

Of course, you can accuse us of putting chemical. Still as far as we can always see that you come only with accusations without any proof.

Remember, history is written afterwards. You cannot go back and forth of playing with your selfmade definitions. At least, I wonder why you love Krishna who has no proof of its existence, but disbelieve Jesus’ miracle proven by written accounts from the relevant time frame by many writers, and calling it just a myth.

I think your definition of Myth is things that support Christianity, and “Fact” as things that does not support Christianity, eventhough the basis of such Fact is next to nothing.
 
**Jesus is speaking of the wrath of God on the sinners. No one has ever said there wouldn’t be wrath for sinners. **

What we’re trying to tell you is Jesus’ atonement on the cross saved us from God’s wrath if we accept it. That doesn’t mean Jesus took the wrath for us, it means he made the ulitmate atonement for us because there is no way we could atone enough for our sins on our own. We’d surely go to Hell if He hadn’t come and saved us.

Why do you continue to need to read wrath into Jesus’ atonement on the cross?
Please explain this passage if this is not prophecy of the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus Christ. Is your undestanding the official Roman Catholic position about the wrath of God not being poured out on Christ at Calvary?

Isaiah 53

53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?

9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
 
So when a father lays down his life for his family, or a martyr lays down his life for God, it means they are being punished? if someone decides to kill you or kill your son and you allow him to kill you instead, it means God’s wrath is on you?
 
So when a father lays down his life for his family, or a martyr lays down his life for God, it means they are being punished? if someone decides to kill you or kill your son and you allow him to kill you instead, it means God’s wrath is on you?
Good questions, but I don’t seem to undestand the link you are trying to make with Christ being fully God and fully man. The deaths of us have no parallel connection between Christ and Him crucified with the exception of Abraham and Issac. Please go back to the Old Testament and the book of Hebrews for additional reflection and meditation on Christ and Him crucified as our substitute and sacrifical lamb of God. What did John Baptist say when he saw Jesus?
 
Good questions, but I don’t seem to undestand the link you are trying to make with Christ being fully God and fully man. The deaths of us have no parallel connection between Christ and Him crucified with the exception of Abraham and Issac. Please go back to the Old Testament and the book of Hebrews for additional reflection and meditation on Christ and Him crucified as our substitute and sacrifical lamb of God. What did John Baptist say when he saw Jesus?
maybe you can answer them and explain how the concept is different.
 
Please explain this passage if this is not prophecy of the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus Christ. Is your undestanding the official Roman Catholic position about the wrath of God not being poured out on Christ at Calvary?

Maybe someone else here can comment, but I’ve never read anything that even remotely refers to Christ’s crucifixion as punishment or the wrath of God.

**Most of that passage is speaking of others’ treatment of Christ and what He would have to endure from the hands of man, not God. **

And in quating Christ’s crucifixion to the wrath of God you are completely missing the whole reason for Christ’s giving His life for you.

Can you tell us if you have had influence in the interpretation you are relating here? For example, obviously as Catholics we rely on the Catechism and other Deposits of Faith to guide us. Who or what is guiding you in your interpretation of The Passion?
 
The poster’s interpretation of Christ’s Passion is the strangest one I’ve heard. Obviously his own answer to his original post is God killed Jesus for us.

Does anyone else agree with this?

I am wholeheartedly on the other side of this argument to be sure. But I wonder if the OP’s interpretation is one of common knowledge that I’ve just never heard.

Any takers on that?
 
underdog;4510498:
Please explain this passage if this is not prophecy of the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus Christ. Is your undestanding the official Roman Catholic position about the wrath of God not being poured out on Christ at Calvary?

Maybe someone else here can comment, but I’ve never read anything that even remotely refers to Christ’s crucifixion as punishment or the wrath of God.
**Most of that passage is speaking of others’ treatment of Christ and what He would have to endure from the hands of man, not God. **

And in quating Christ’s crucifixion to the wrath of God you are completely missing the whole reason for Christ’s giving His life for you.

Can you tell us if you have had influence in the interpretation you are relating here? For example, obviously as Catholics we rely on the Catechism and other Deposits of Faith to guide us. Who or what is guiding you in your interpretation of The Passion?

Hi

If Jesus died on Cross; it was clearly a wrath of God according to OTBible, there cannot be any two opinion on this, to me.

It is only for this reason that Quran discussed this matter and refutes that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross. Quran informs us in very clear words that Jesus died a natural and peaceful death later and Jews could not kill him on the Cross . They failed in their designs.

This is my sincere opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
 
Happily,

I think it stems from the distorted fruit of the reformation…

In order to emphasize how “small” we are to God, how utterly depraved and evil we are without His salvation, ( a good intention perhaps, because it does in fact emphasize the magnitude of His great love for us!)… it extended into the concept of our salvation. One cry of the reformation was that we are wretched and abominable before God… and the only way we can come before Him in heaven, is to have Christ “cover” over our sins… This contrasts greatly because as Catholics, we know that sin is not only covered by our Lord, but that we are transformed, sanctified and MADE holy through a lifelong process…

This extends, (and this is only my perspective of protestant belief) into Christ’s passion, and what it means for us. It seems easy to follow, then, that what Christ recieved on the cross was not God’s pure wrath…the wrath we all deserved, but Christ took on for us.

But, while I think it’s true that we all “deserve” God’s wrath… it misses the point that Christ Himself was not being “punished” for anything! Rather, He was sacrificing Himself so that we would NOT be punished… He was taking on our sins (and not just “our” sins… but yours, mine, and every INDIVIDUAL person’s in all the world through all time) and paying OUR debt…

The emphasis is NOT on the “wrath” that we all deserved, but on the LOVE in which Christ gave Himself, freely, so that we could be united to Him, and set free from sin.

God’s wrath is not a “punishment” but a consequence of sin.

I think underdog’s understanding is the fruit of this mindset, though I am only basing this observation on what I’ve read, and I have no idea what he “actually” believes, or what his “lenses” are when he reads scripture, because so far he has been very evasive regarding these questions.
 
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Salaam/ Peace
… Quran informs us in very clear words that Jesus died a natural and peaceful death later …
well , it’s not the opinion of most Muslims. Quran says , Jesus (p) is the sign of the last day. So , it’s believed that Jesus (p) did not die , will be back & regarding a hadith , Jesus (p) will die after his second coming .

Most probably there is another hadith that says , Jesus (p) will be buried beside Prophet Muhammed (p).
 
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