Who killed Jesus and why?

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underdog said:
God the Father poured out His righteous wrath on Christ on behalf of Christians. Christ received what we deserved, the eternal wrath of God for our sins. And in return, we receive what Christ merited by His perfect life which is His sufficient righteousness. There is a great exchange of our sin for Christ’s righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God
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**Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. **
**Now the question is, do we believe that Christ’s crucifixion was the “wrath of God”. **
Well, no. Christ was the Paschal Lamb. The ultimate sacrafice for all mankind. He was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices in the name of God. When God asked Abraham to take Isaac’s life was God “mad” at Abraham or Isaac? No. It was about giving what was most covented to Abraham unto the Lord. He was going to do so, but God stopped him. Because God did it out of love, not anger. It was not a punishment and therefor no “wrath” was intended.
Jesus was not under God’s wrath when he died on the cross. God was not mad at man or Jesus but the Blood of the Holy Spirit (The Pashcal Lamb) is the atonement for all sin and had to be shed so that we may be with the Lord.
 
underdog said:
Because “It is Finished”. 😉
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He wasn’t dead and raise from the death when He said that. So, according to however you believe, that “finished” must be something else. Indeed, it is something else that Catholics hold on dearly at every mass - the Eucharist.

Without Him raising from the dead, how could it be finished?
 
happilycatholic said:
**Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. **
**Now the question is, do we believe that Christ’s crucifixion was the “wrath of God”. **
Well, no. Christ was the Paschal Lamb. The ultimate sacrafice for all mankind. He was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices in the name of God. When God asked Abraham to take Isaac’s life was God “mad” at Abraham or Isaac? No. It was about giving what was most covented to Abraham unto the Lord. He was going to do so, but God stopped him. Because God did it out of love, not anger. It was not a punishment and therefor no “wrath” was intended.
Jesus was not under God’s wrath when he died on the cross. God was not mad at man or Jesus but the Blood of the Holy Spirit (The Pashcal Lamb) is the atonement for all sin and had to be shed so that we may be with the Lord.
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Interesting, so Roman Catholic theology does not teach that the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus on the cross?

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Catholic Translation of Douay-Rhiems Bible

Okay, please explain the word propitiation and 1 John 2:2.
 
withwind said:
He wasn’t dead and raise from the death when He said that. So, according to however you believe, that “finished” must be something else. Indeed, it is something else that Catholics hold on dearly at every mass - the Eucharist.

Without Him raising from the dead, how could it be finished?
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The price or our debt for sins have been paid in full. It is the perfect substituitional sacrifce and payment required by God for divine justice. .

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Colossians 2
 
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

Please notice the underlined words. It sure seems the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus on the cross.
 
underdog said:
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

Please notice the underlined words. It sure seems the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus on the cross.
Click to expand...
Please explain for us, your understanding of “the wrath of God.” 🙂
 
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - romans 3

Here is propitiation again by his blood. Prior to the cross, it appeared God was unjust for not punishing sin. Look at verse 25. But at the cross, God was serving justice and the justifier at the same time. Oh… the wonders of the cross, too good to believe, full atonement for those who are His.
 
AshleyBelle said:
Please explain for us, your understanding of “the wrath of God.” 🙂
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God’s holy anger against sin . Since God is the perfect moral supreme being, God cannot let rebellion against Him go unpunished. Look at Romans 3:25-26 above. What happens when we witness or experience injustice in our life? We can have anger over the lack of justice that was not served. God’s anger against sin is holy righteous anger. He did not punish sin by pouring out His wrath until Calvary. That same righteous holy wrath will be poured out on unbelievers in Hell.
 
underdog said:
Interesting, so Roman Catholic theology does not teach that the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus on the cross?

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Catholic Translation of Douay-Rhiems Bible

Okay, please explain the word propitiation and 1 John 2:2.
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Ashley,

Could you please explain the word propitiation above. It is from a Catholic Translation.
 
to answer the title of this thread:
I DID,WITH EVERYBODY ELSES HELP.Underdog held the nail while i drove it through,
 
underdog said:
Ashley,

Could you please explain the word propitiation above. It is from a Catholic Translation.
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This is the definition from a Catholic dictionary:

“To placate or appease an angry person. It is one of the three fruits of every good work; the others are impetration and merit. It is also one of the four ends of the Sacrifice of the Mass, whose propitiatory power extends to sin, to satisfaction and punishment for the living, and to punishment for the dead. (Etym. Latin propitiare, to render favorable.)”
 
underdog said:
God’s holy anger against sin . Since God is the perfect moral supreme being, God cannot let rebellion against Him go unpunished. Look at Romans 3:25-26 above. What happens when we witness or experience injustice in our life? We can have anger over the lack of justice that was not served. God’s anger against sin is holy righteous anger. He did not punish sin by pouring out His wrath until Calvary. That same righteous holy wrath will be poured out on unbelievers in Hell.
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Do you believe it is “only” because of God’s wrath, for which Christ died on the Cross?
 
underdog said:
Who killed Jesus and why?
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Hi

Nobody could kill Jesus on the Cross;this was an attempt and intention of the Jews, but they never could succeed. God Allah had selected Jesus for his Messenger-ship and unless that was accomplished, it could never happen.

Jesus tied the attempt of the Jews with the Sign of Jonah and we know that Jonah was alive when he entered the belly of the fish, remained alive in its belly and came out alive and went to his people to deliver the message from God Allah,

So, Jesus survived a cursed death on Cross, which in my opinion, only is a made up story by Paul, when Jesus had gone to India to deliver his message to the lost sheep of Isael residing there.

Jesus died a peaceful and natural death in India when he had accomplished his mission set for him by God Allah.

He was a successful man, not a failure.

This is what I believe sincerely, others could differe me with reasonable, rational and logical arguments.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks
 
underdog said:
God’s holy anger against sin . Since God is the perfect moral supreme being, God cannot let rebellion against Him go unpunished. Look at Romans 3:25-26 above. What happens when we witness or experience injustice in our life? We can have anger over the lack of justice that was not served. God’s anger against sin is holy righteous anger. He did not punish sin by pouring out His wrath until Calvary. That same righteous holy wrath will be poured out on unbelievers in Hell.
Click to expand...
First of all Jesus was without sin. The sin He was sacrificed for was ours, not His own. That is what makes Him the perfect sacrifice. He was sacrificed for no other reason but for us.

Next there is atonement, which I think you may be confusing for “punishment”. Atonement is something done to make up for sin, not punishment for it.

You are wrong about God not pouring out His “wrath” until Calvary. There were many times He triedto show his wrath to the people of Isreal. The Great Flood is probably the best example.

Christ’s crucifixion was not about God’s wrath, but atonement for our sin, the sins of the world.

I think you might be a little off center.
 
I hope everyone will agree that Jesus was NOT being punished by the wrath of God on the cross. Christ did this of His own free will, not as punishment but as a gift to the world.
When we receive communion we are not remembering Christ being punished on the cross. We are remembering Christ’s Gift to us of salvation through Him and in Him.
No one could go to Heaven who is guilty of “killing” God. God gave us His only Son and His Son gave His mortal life for ours eternal. No one could ever take that. He was not mortal, but God in the flesh.
**Even Jesus asked the Father to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing. **
 
happilycatholic said:
I hope everyone will agree that Jesus was NOT being punished by the wrath of God on the cross. Christ did this of His own free will, not as punishment but as a gift to the world.
When we receive communion we are not remembering Christ being punished on the cross. We are remembering Christ’s Gift to us of salvation through Him and in Him.
No one could go to Heaven who is guilty of “killing” God. God gave us His only Son and His Son gave His mortal life for ours eternal. No one could ever take that. He was not mortal, but God in the flesh.
**Even Jesus asked the Father to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing. **
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I agree completely, happilcatholic:)

I am asking underdog to clarify his understandings about “the wrath of God” and other such questions, to try and get an idea of where he is coming from, and where his questions to us are founded.

But as I said before… Christ could not be “punished” for He was guilty of nothing.
 
AshleyBelle said:
This is the definition from a Catholic dictionary:

“To placate or appease an angry person. It is one of the three fruits of every good work; the others are impetration and merit. It is also one of the four ends of the Sacrifice of the Mass, whose propitiatory power extends to sin, to satisfaction and punishment for the living, and to punishment for the dead. (Etym. Latin propitiare, to render favorable.)”
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To appease or placate an angry person. That is the basic definition. In a biblical sense, Christ appeased, exhausted, bore the wrath of God, satisfying the anger of God against sin.

Please forgive me if I misunderstand your posting. It seems Catholics are still trying to appease God for your sins throgh the mass, or in other ways through the sacraments. Do you see why our theologies is worlds apart? Christ actually satsified and bore the wrath of God for those who are His. It is finished and the price has been paid in full. Therefore, we have peace with God. Romans 5.

Peace with God Through Faith

5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 8

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9]

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
AshleyBelle said:
But as I said before… Christ could not be “punished” for He was guilty of nothing.
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I don’t know if this is Catholic thought but,
wasn’t Christ punished for the sins that were imputed to him, the sins of the people he came to save??

1 Peter 2:24 “Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree…”
 
AshleyBelle said:
I agree completely, happilcatholic:)

I am asking underdog to clarify his understandings about “the wrath of God” and other such questions, to try and get an idea of where he is coming from, and where his questions to us are founded.

But as I said before… Christ could not be “punished” for He was guilty of nothing.
Click to expand...
Our sins were transfered to Jesus. How about the scapegoat and all the animals sacrificed in the Old Testament altars? Those animal sacrifices were foreshadows of the sacrifical lamb of God who was without blemish (without sin).

This is the gospel: 2 Cor 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
 
Henning said:
I don’t know if this is Catholic thought but,
wasn’t Christ punished for the sins that were imputed to him, the sins of the people he came to save??

1 Peter 2:24 “Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree…”
Click to expand...
**No, Christ was not being punished at all. He was giving the gift of everlasting life. **
It’s hard to think of something such as His crucifixion being a gift, but it was.
 
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