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guanophore
Guest
Everything must begin with prayer, so I am glad you are seeking. I will pray for you, that you will keep trying those doorknobs until one opens for you.
Have you considered becoming certified in catechesis?
Who knows the contents of the Bible better, Catholics or non-Catholics?
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Have you considered becoming certified in catechesis?
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iloveangels
Guest
Thank you.
Yes, I’m working on some of that now. The schoolwork is easy. The difficulty with the cultural stuff is harder.
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guanophore
Guest
You hit that nail on the head! But God always leads us in triumph. If we are fervently seeking His will for us, and studying to show ourselves approved unto God, then He will make a way for us. For some of us, our local parish is not the place, but there are other areas in the diocese where we can offer our gifts. What is important is that we are seeking to learn the nature of our gifts and calling, and to put them to the service of Christ the Lord.
Eph 4:11-16
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.
God has given each of us a gift that is to function to build up the Body in Love. It is incumbent upon is to nurture this gift (unwrap it, and put it to use). When the ecclesial authorities in the parish are not helping the faithful to do this, it is much more of a challenge.
The ordained are there to equip the saints, but it is the saints who are the ones to do the work of the ministry. Unfortunately the “culture” has been for the saints to sit back, and expect the ordained to do all the work of the ministry. This has caused overworked priests, and lazy parishioners. The best way to work against this is to begin with ourselves, make sure we are well equipped, then move into our role to assist the ordained in equipping the saints for the work of the ministry.
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TexanKnight
Guest
usually, non-Catholics know it better…
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Cicero54
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LiseTravis
Guest
It’s just a question:
Who knows the contents of the Bible better, the average Catholic or average non-Catholic?
IMHO, Protestants THINK they know the Bible better & Catholics don't realize how much of the Bible they know! :wink:
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Cicero54
Guest
The point you make is quite good, since by tradition Catholics live out the prescriptions of the Bible through thier ancient liturgies, devotions, and pilgrimages. When looked at through the ecclesiastical histories of Eusebius, St Gregory of Tours, Ven Bede on back to the earliest observations about ecclesial praxis, there is even today that familiarity of the Catholic sense.IMHO, Protestants THINK they know the Bible better & Catholics don’t realize how much of the Bible they know!
I’ve never met a Protestant who quite has this sense. I like your statement.
Cicero54
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iloveangels
Guest
This is just not the case. It’s not enough to just get a whiff of it somehow. Most Catholics don’t really know what’s in it.IMHO, Protestants THINK they know the Bible better & Catholics don’t realize how much of the Bible they know!
From Divino Afflante Spiritu, the encyclical on Scripture by Pius XII:
"When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the “entire books with all their parts” as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as “obiter dicta” and - as they contended - in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules."
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu_en.html
Pope Pius XII was speaking out against the enormous amount of Fideism which had appeared by 1943 when it came to the Bible which most Catholics were not reading and which most Catholics, in fact, had relegated to the status of a specialty document to be handled only by “experts.”
Fideism is the belief that religion is all about faith and not at all about reason. That is, that it is not necessary to have any learning of scripture, theology or history about your faith; rather, that the emotion of adherence to the faith is sufficient. This is also the subject of FIDES ET RATIO, which corrects this faulty notion.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html
Catholics need to read these documents.
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guanophore
Guest
How do you think might be the best way to make this happen?
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iloveangels
Guest
That’s a really good question. Perhaps they can be introduced into a bible study or document study for Catholics on the parish level.
I do know that some Catholics are interested in these things when they find them. I mean they often go out and read a bunch of stuff on Medugorje* or the like, and there are a lot of informational websites by Catholics and this massive thing (CAF), so obviously there’s some kind of interest in the faith.
I honestly don’t think Catholics know where to start, and I think they’ve had it rubbed into them somehow that Protestants do this or that, so they can’t or they’ll be wrong. This is why they’re always trying to get a priest to do this for them. I’ve heard many Catholics say things like this. There’s some fear of learning involved; there’s also some belief that faith & reason are contradictory. It’s very repetitive, especially when they talk about Scripture. This is so, even though the Church has dealt with many of these ideas officially in a very fine and satisfying manner. All this has to be gently overcome and it’s not going to happen overnight. Perhaps the New Evangelization will help with these things–or even more likely perhaps it IS the New Evangelization to help with these things.
Add to that, the simple fact that many catechists are not really trained as teachers and don’t have those simple generic skills that good teachers have, just as a matter of experience and training. How to pace & plan, make people comfortable, keep them on topic, motivate them to want, teach them to “know when they know,” share & care–generic teaching things.
Add to that the difficulties of trying to get things started in parishes which come in all different conditions of life or decay, with all the situations that can exist. And it’s no wonder we are where we are.
*Not a comment on Medugorje about which I have no real opinion. It’s just a topic of interest I picked as one of the things Catholics take the time to look up and read about.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
In terms of the content, there is no question that a tiny percentage of Catholics can match the content knowledge of millions of non-Catholics, regarding both halves of Scripture.
Understanding is a different thing. Not all of those non-Catholics (especially Christian non-Catholics) necessarily understand the context of everything they often quote beautifully, and here I’m not talking about synchronizing with Catholic interpretations, but merely with various trained interpreters (scripture scholars) of several faiths.
That said, there is something admirable about anyone who bothers to commit to memory sections of the Bible, or is able to identify which book, section of a chapter, etc., the passage is located, because that in itself shows several things: (a) an interest in the Word of God (b) a respect for the Word of God (c) an understanding that the Word of God is a living and present reality in the life of a Christian, despite the age of the original words, (d) a realization that scripture is both the Word of God and is sacred literature, and as literature, there is form and shape to it which in themseves convey meaning.
Many Protestants pray the scriptures, and Jews certainly do.
The ignorance of most lay Catholics, about scripture, is embarrassing. In every parish there should be ongoing classes regarding the following (a) moral theology and (b) scripture. There are abundant resources for this among many educated lay Catholics who could lead/teach such classes. It does not require clerical labor except for vetting and oversight.
The difference, regarding this, between Catholic and non-Catholic Christianity is that the latter considers it the duty of the ordinary Christian to become so educated. (Which in fact it is.)
Understanding is a different thing. Not all of those non-Catholics (especially Christian non-Catholics) necessarily understand the context of everything they often quote beautifully, and here I’m not talking about synchronizing with Catholic interpretations, but merely with various trained interpreters (scripture scholars) of several faiths.
That said, there is something admirable about anyone who bothers to commit to memory sections of the Bible, or is able to identify which book, section of a chapter, etc., the passage is located, because that in itself shows several things: (a) an interest in the Word of God (b) a respect for the Word of God (c) an understanding that the Word of God is a living and present reality in the life of a Christian, despite the age of the original words, (d) a realization that scripture is both the Word of God and is sacred literature, and as literature, there is form and shape to it which in themseves convey meaning.
Many Protestants pray the scriptures, and Jews certainly do.
The ignorance of most lay Catholics, about scripture, is embarrassing. In every parish there should be ongoing classes regarding the following (a) moral theology and (b) scripture. There are abundant resources for this among many educated lay Catholics who could lead/teach such classes. It does not require clerical labor except for vetting and oversight.
The difference, regarding this, between Catholic and non-Catholic Christianity is that the latter considers it the duty of the ordinary Christian to become so educated. (Which in fact it is.)
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iloveangels
Guest
I wouldn’t be so hasty on this statement when it comes to the content of Scripture. About some other things, like the Church fathers, the teachings of the Church, Catholic teachings on moral theology, certainly yes, but on basic Scripture knowledge, not really. The FINAL INTERPRETATION can be off because of the ignorance about Catholic teachings but the basic understanding of the text itself, the literal meaning, the literary forms, the ancient languages, the relationships, the history involved, some simple applications, etc, no. Many protestants get that and they do it far better than most Catholics. Simply because they study it assiduously until they do.
I agree with this. There is real reverence paid to Scripture.
Yes, this is very, very common among both groups. It reaches a very high level among Jews and also among some non-denominational-type or old-school -type Protestant believers.
Absolutely agree, 100%. It’s a huge problem. We argue and bicker about things that are clearly and literally explained in Scripture. We don’t know what it says. It makes us look like we don’t know what we’re talking about. And to top that all off, we hop around on crutches trying to make do without Scripture when we need it! The pillars of the Church are Scripture and Tradition–they support it together. You can’t make do on only one of them without dragging something.
I also agree. Every parish has teachers sitting around in the pews who have the technical training to do a good job and give others some training too. Every parish has a few people who would be glad to be certified by a diocese and do the Church a voluntary service, and do a good faithful job of it too… And usually for FREE.
I would agree with you. Some dioceses now have programs to certify catechists which are a very good thing. The more experience and genuine education they can get, the better. There are also some very good tools like the programs of Jeff Cavins (The Great Adventure) and so on which can easily be used by non-scholars but still have some actual content in them. (Not all Catholic programs have much content; the bar is very low and some things I’ve personally seen are quite simply vacuous.)
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iloveangels
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Of course, Catholics usually don’t get the Final Interpretation EITHER, because you can’t comprehend an interpretation of what you DON’T READ in the first place–even if it shows up on a plate with a doily. It looks like nothing and it isn’t recognized.
The Church says that people should be reading Scripture (Dei Verbum, Divino Afflante Spiritu, Pontifical Biblical Commission etc etc). And this is why.
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guanophore
Guest
I think you are making valid points here. Lately I have been thinking that it might be more useful to use an ancient (pre-Protestant) practice such as Lectio Divina, that would get people past some of their fears, and help them to fall in love with Scripture.
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iloveangels
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I think that would work fine, especially in small groups, and especially if you have a suitable place to set the right tone for beginning.
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Daganoweda
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JustaServant
Guest
The books you mention are called the Deuterocanonical books, not the “Apocrypha” and they have been in the Christian Bible from the beginning.
The Old Testament Canon
How to prove deuterocanonical books are inspired?
Did Catholics add books to the Bible?
Original books of Bible
I am not denying the right of your communion to determine for itself what is and is not scripture. Question: how did your communion come to the 66 book conclusion?
Jon
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joe370
Guest
Good question…
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