Who makes end-of-life decisions, family, or doctors? Ontario court to decide

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Are there really hospitals in Canada that do gyne surgery but don’t do sterilizations? I worked in a Catholic hospital and was patient in a few and they all did them, even back in the 70s.

Catholic hospitals will lose their Catholic designation if they are caught doing so as several American Catholic hospitals have discovered to their chagrin,The medical staff if they are Catholic suffer immediate excommunication-just ask that American nun who suffered the same discipline after approving an abortion.

The sterilization if it is an inadvertant byproduct of gynelogical surgery is of course allowed but the deliberate destruction of reproductive capabilities is forbidden and if done within a Catholic Hospital MUST be reported to the Bishop.

Your anecdotal information is just that.I’m sure that this MAY have happened but it certainly should not have.As a patient and employee how were you privy to the knowledge that ALL Catholic hospitals did them?.Were you a Chief of Staff,a Hospital Administrator,a surgeon,a nurse?Did you work in every Catholic Hospital in Canada?Hospital records are secret except on a "need to know basis"How did you need to know?.Privacy laws are in fact laws taken very seriously in this country,I find your statements very curious.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

“It’s called the Canada Health Act; it outlaws private payments or co-pay on certain treatments (not things like vision or dental for example). Although, the constitutionality is oft-questioned, and it’s fairly well known that out-of-pocket payments that are forbidden happen frequently in Quebec. The provisions are not well enforced, and there have been calls lately to completely ignore it.”

In the main I agree with your contentions however the concept of universal one-tier health care is more deeply engrained in the Canadianb Psyche than yes, hockey,and Timmies.

Any time there has been a rumbling or trial balloon floated about co-
pay and privatization the roar was heard a mari usque ad mari.This will never be tolerated by Canadians and any political party who tinkers with it will find itself in the hinterlands for several hundreds of years.It matters not a whit what the activist Supremes decide.Canada can simply pas another law.Two-tier and co-pay spell the end of universality and every Canadian realises it,It will NEVER happen-especially in a nation with the strongest and most sound economy in the world.

.As far as Quebec goes who cares-they are completely irrelevant to Camada,they destroyed the Bloc and voted for Whorehouse Jacked because he promised to give him the store and now,thank God they no voice in a majority conservative government.The sooner they separate or are evicted into a sea of 335,000,000 english speaking North Americans the better,It is time for La Belle Province to experience reality without hiding behind Canada’s skirts;,then they can "je me souviens"alright.It’ll be “je me regrete”.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

“It is my understanding that people in Canada elect people to govern for them and make rules regarding things like the allocation of medical resources? and that these elected officials collect the money and write the checks? and that these elected people are collectively known as the government?”

Most people make the mistake of equating Canada’s Health Care with the UK’s which is truly socialized and under control totally of the Government.ALL doctors etc are employees of the State.Not so in Canada.The government collects the taxes and acts as bookkeeper or comptroller-it does NOT run the Health Care System.Hospitals and the College of Physicians do that and make policy under government oversight

.As I said and you can check Wikipedia or any other source.Canada where ALL have universal Health Care spends 2 percent less of its GNP on Health Care than the US where 60 million people have none at all and Canadians live on average 2.5 years longer than our Doodle cousins.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Pax et Bonum,

I’m very confused about your post. If a hospital doesn’t take any money from the state, how can the state dictate what sort of services they provide?

"If Ceasar gets his way… Sounds to me like Ceasar hasn’t gotten his way yet. On the other hand, it sounds as if Catholic hospitals were barred in some way from taking these near end-of-life cases.

I’m sorry. I’m just really really confused

The government does not get to dictate the services,The patient in concert with physicians and specialists decide.Recently the unthinkable has happened-hospitals and medics have brought suit to “pull the plug” contravening living wills and the wishes of the familys.The Medicos have overstepped themselves and their God complexes-The Canadian Health Care System dies NOT belong to the doctors nor the courts it belongs to me,Curley-Cool,Phemie and 33.000,000 other Canadians.

 

[Phemie]

Catholic hospitals will lose their Catholic designation if they are caught doing so as several American Catholic hospitals have discovered to their chagrin,The medical staff if they are Catholic suffer immediate excommunication-just ask that American nun who suffered the same discipline after approving an abortion.

The sterilization if it is an inadvertant byproduct of gynelogical surgery is of course allowed but the deliberate destruction of reproductive capabilities is forbidden and if done within a Catholic Hospital MUST be reported to the Bishop.

Your anecdotal information is just that.I’m sure that this MAY have happened but it certainly should not have.As a patient and employee how were you privy to the knowledge that ALL Catholic hospitals did them?.Were you a Chief of Staff,a Hospital Administrator,a surgeon,a nurse?Did you work in every Catholic Hospital in Canada?Hospital records are secret except on a "need to know basis"How did you need to know?.Privacy laws are in fact laws taken very seriously in this country,I find your statements very curious.

I was a nurse on the surgical ward and we knew exactly what each patient was there for – that’s what ‘shift report’ is all about. In the hospitals where I was a patient, the women were not exactly hiding the fact that they had come in for a tubal. The ‘all’ in my post was referring to the hospitals I’d worked or been a patient in, not every hospital in Canada. We’re talking Canada here, a place where priests and bishops more often than not left ABC & sterilization up to the person’s conscience up until fairly recently – and where some of them still do.

 

[Phemie]

The government does not get to dictate the services,The patient in concert with physicians and specialists decide.Recently the unthinkable has happened-hospitals and medics have brought suit to “pull the plug” contravening living wills and the wishes of the familys.The Medicos have overstepped themselves and their God complexes-The Canadian Health Care System dies NOT belong to the doctors nor the courts it belongs to me,Curley-Cool,Phemie and 33.000,000 other Canadians.

But the government feels free to withhold funds from provinces that don’t cover the cost of abortions in ‘out-of-hospital’ clinics. The only province that does not provide abortions is PEI, only because they are very small, and they can’t attract a doctor willing to do them.

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

I was a nurse on the surgical ward and we knew exactly what each patient was there for – that’s what ‘shift report’ is all about. In the hospitals where I was a patient, the women were not exactly hiding the fact that they had come in for a tubal. The ‘all’ in my post was referring to the hospitals I’d worked or been a patient in, not every hospital in Canada. We’re talking Canada here, a place where priests and bishops more often than not left ABC & sterilization up to the person’s conscience up until fairly recently – and where some of them still do.

The dereliction of duty by Bishops and priests allow these outrages to happen.No Catholic hospital should do ANY sterilizations,abortions or so-called sex-changes.The Catholic hospital where my girlfriend works as a nurse in ST Louis Mo. certainly does not.

Contact the Pope or Cardinal Oullet or the Papal Nuncio.Better yet contact Lifesite News and they will blow this wide open or So-con or Bust

.St John Chrysotom came up with the expression,“the road to hell(or the floor of hell)is paved with the skulls of Bishops”

.In the Middle Ages scenes of hell also included such residents as Popes,Bishops and clergy.They will pay for allowing others to lose their salvation through the heresy of “Nice”,and ignoring Church Teaching unless they repent…

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

But the government feels free to withhold funds from provinces that don’t cover the cost of abortions in ‘out-of-hospital’ clinics. The only province that does not provide abortions is PEI, only because they are very small, and they can’t attract a doctor willing to do them.

That has nothing to do with abortions in Catholic Hospitals.The government is entitled to do that because there is NO abortion law in Canada.None.No restrictions what so ever.The baby may be murdered while crowning.Because our Feminazi leftist activist unelected Supreme Court vacated the law and Politicians,especially Harper are too cowardly to make this an issue wherein 59 percent of the population is pro-life according to a CBC survey.Some Evangelist,he-he is a disgrace to his faith-all for the sake of political power…He even voted against the law that would make forced abortion a crime.Time to re-reform the Conservatives.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Your comparison of JW minors and their heath treatment is apples and oranges compared to end of life decisions.A parent does NOT have the right to deny treatment to a minor child no matter the religion.The medical community sensitive to this issue has developed surgeries and procedures that do NOT require blood transfusion.I doni know where you got your uninformed malarkey about doctors not wanting to pull the plug-Google Belgium and Holland.I gave you two examples that happened in Canada.
The Families wishes are the only ones that count(except as above).-where do you come up with these uninformerd Truisms and generalizations-what is your background.If you are so concerned have a living will drawn up.I carry in my wallet that under no circumstances is any medical personnnel to make this call ONLY my son and that NO aponea tests ever be conducted as it causes irreversible brain damage.Which coincidentally causes disputed brain death making ones organs ripe for harvesting.

My background? I’m training to be a nurse, almost finished. I have cared for patients who are dying, and end-of-life decisions were made for them. What’s yours?

Where did I talk about doctors not wanting to “pull the plug”? Please quote me.

Apnea tests do not cause brain damage. It’s basically a test where the machine stops breathing for you and the doctors wait to see if you breathe on your own, while monitoring your blood gas levels to make sure they do not reach a level which can damage you. Where is your proof of this “brain damage” caused by the test?

Glad to know you are an international law expert as well as a medical doctor Pax, but actually, a parent does have the right to refuse treatment for a child in the UK, USA, and Canada. In the UK, a 9 year old boy was going to die unless he had a blood transfusion. The parents refused it. The doctors applied to the High Courts and the child was made a Ward of the Courts, which gave the doctors permission - overruling the parents. The boy survived. The parents then tried to sue the government. This does apply to end-of-life care as if the boy did not live, he would die. I learnt this studying medical ethics as part of my degree.

Note - I would take you a lot more seriously if you were more eloquent and less aggressive.