Who qualifes as traditional catholics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter peter26
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
bobballen_18 said:
I’m honestly really curious about this “mind’s eye” of yours, what your mind thinks of when the term “traditional/traditionalist Catholic” is mentioned. I’m curious, because I think your “mind’s eye” is similar to the majority of Catholics when the term is mentioned, and I think it’s just interesting to reflect on why that is, so that is really the only reason I’m posting - to express my reflections on what you posted.

I suppose/hope you are being slightly facetious, and you did mention you don’t mean it as an insult, and I believe you when you say that. And I am probably just biased (I consider myself a “traditionalist” if we’re going by labels), but still, I get the impression from your post, though you mean no direct insult - that you are only seeing these sort of people in a negative light - or at best, not a positive light. Maybe there are negative aspects to each of those four things you mentioned in your mind’s eye of a traditional Catholic, especially when phrased as you have phrased them, but what if, while acknowledging that these could be real faults of traditional Catholics in some way, they could be phrased in a different way in which they would be very positive things? Positive things which would/could be good for all Catholics?

Another thing I think is interesting to reflect on is that, at least in my experience, the vast majority of traditional Catholics do not hold beliefs that are at odds with Catholic teaching or tradition, yet they are viewed in a more negative light than anything else, and with outright contempt by some, simply because they are attached to the Latin Mass. Yes yes, I realize the same could be said for some traditional Catholics vice-versa, so there’s that. And I know that there are legitimate claims against so-called “rad-trads” who take traditionalism too far. I just wish that these traditionalists who take it too far were not viewed as the representative traditionalists, because in my experience, almost literally EVERY traditional Catholic (specifically, Latin Mass going) I know is a charitable, faithful, Catholic who is loyal to Rome. They have their faults (as all people do), but like all Catholics faithful to the Church’s teachings, they have something very good to offer in the life of the Church, and it is not good that the majority of Catholics don’t even know traditionalists/traditional practices exist, and that a number of those that do, look at them with either skepticism or outright contempt. It just mystifies me.

All right, that is probably more than enough reflection for ya’ll from me. 🙂
Click to expand...
You only used half of my post and it wasn’t meant to be facetious and it was an honest response. But there seems to be an over emphasis on the external manifestations of religiosity particularly sacramentals
 
I believe a traditional Catholic is simply one who upholds the dogma’s of the church.

They may not believe it all or live it all but they either accept it in lieu of knowing one way or the other or they are actively trying to come to knowledge and participation in good faith with the church.

I don’t think a traditional Catholic is necessarily a good Catholic but in theory it should help if lived faithfully.
 
If a friend tells you that the family across the street from them are Traditional Catholics, do you assume they attend the same parish as your friend ?
 
CompSciGuy said:
I think the desire for liturgical continuity would drive many traditional Catholics to attend the Latin Mass. But I do not think it is necessary. I am sure many Traditional Catholics would agree that the Ordinary Form can be celebrated in a way that is continuous with Catholic theology and liturgical practice.
Click to expand...
It could be, you’re right, and that’s probably why at least two Popes commented on the perceived “rupture of continuity” that exists today.

However, according to the 5-part series put out by Latin Mass Society, the “reform of the reform” is virtually dead. It’s more than texts and documents. It’s a different level of understanding, it’s contemplative prayer, and it’s the visuals, among other things. It’s a different philosophy. I know people who have been offended by “praying in cadences,” the so-called dialogue, claiming this wasn’t prayer at all, at least not sincere prayer. Frankly, I think they have a point. There may be those who say it’s all about reverence, but you can go to a Lutheran church and experience reverence.

Two Popes have restored and expanded the use of the 1962 Missal and have done so for a reason. It may have been to create a positive impact on the OF I don’t know. But seeing the young so interested in the EF I tend to think otherwise. They may not come every week but they’re certainly open to the more traditional form.
 
This discussion is bogus really you are a practicing Catholic or you aren’t the Mass is the Mass.
 
If someone favors traditional practices of the Church (Latin in the Mass, veiling of women, kneeling for Holy Communion…) or has traditional beliefs then they can be considered traditional Catholics in my opinion. Usually, these people attend the Traditional Latin Mass since it has all of the traditions that they favor and is older than the Novus Ordo. I, myself, am a traditional Catholic. 🙂
 
JimmyG88 said:
You only used half of my post and it wasn’t meant to be facetious and it was an honest response. But there seems to be an over emphasis on the external manifestations of religiosity particularly sacramentals
Click to expand...
Yes, I only used half your post, because it was that half of the post on which I wanted to reflect. Your comment regarding “external manifestations…” as well as below:
JimmyG88 said:
This discussion is bogus really you are a practicing Catholic or you aren’t the Mass is the Mass.
Click to expand...
…leads me to say this: I can definitely see how someone with a different mindset can think that Traditional Catholics are overly concerned with, say, the Liturgy. However, I can’t for the life of me imagine how being concerned with the Liturgy, our supreme worship of God on earth, is a bad thing. And I guess you didn’t outright say it is a “bad thing”, though your view that it is an “over emphasis” certainly doesn’t seem to be a positive evaluation.

Certainly there are other important aspects of being Catholic other than going to Mass, obviously the Christian life consists of many other things. However, the Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our Christian life - yes, “the Mass is the Mass”, in the sense that as long as we have the Eucharist, we will be okay - but I think people should at least consider the possibility that we should strive do our best with regards to the Liturgy, considering it is the context in which the Eucharist is confected and received. And considering the Mass is basically “Heaven on Earth.”

I’ll bow out of the conversation now - I have a feeling that if I keep on posting in this thread, I will only continue to sound “preachy” and whatnot, and I don’t want that. Just felt compelled to make these couple of reflections. 👍
 
bobballen_18 said:
Yes, I only used half your post, because it was that half of the post on which I wanted to reflect. Your comment regarding “external manifestations…” as well as below:

…leads me to say this: I can definitely see how someone with a different mindset can think that Traditional Catholics are overly concerned with, say, the Liturgy. However, I can’t for the life of me imagine how being concerned with the Liturgy, our supreme worship of God on earth, is a bad thing. And I guess you didn’t outright say it is a “bad thing”, though your view that it is an “over emphasis” certainly doesn’t seem to be a positive evaluation.

Certainly there are other important aspects of being Catholic other than going to Mass, obviously the Christian life consists of many other things. However, the Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our Christian life - yes, “the Mass is the Mass”, in the sense that as long as we have the Eucharist, we will be okay - but I think people should at least consider the possibility that we should strive do our best with regards to the Liturgy, considering it is the context in which the Eucharist is confected and received. And considering the Mass is basically “Heaven on Earth.”

I’ll bow out of the conversation now - I have a feeling that if I keep on posting in this thread, I will only continue to sound “preachy” and whatnot, and I don’t want that. Just felt compelled to make these couple of reflections. 👍
Click to expand...
Not preachy at all. I think it’s because I remember the Latin mass from childhood and then was familiar the Mass in English. I really have no preference for either form, but I have to say Knowing Latin does help with mass in Spanish and Italian. I like plenty of incense and black at funerals I think no one should wear a today as jewellery. I’d admit I prefer a bit of tradition to anything that looks vaguely Pentecostal. I don’t believe anyone speaks in tongues but I wouldn’t go out of my way to pray the chaplet of the child Jesus. I don’t believe in lots of stuff regarding visions etc but my excellent Catholic education taught me it’s not compulsory to. I guess I am less concerned with some of the external manifestations of our traditions but by the same token I would be affronted by some of the more off the wall ‘modern’ practices. I think that young people like to see nuns in a veil in fact I think there is a resurgence in clothing as a outward sign of inward belief ;Muslim women could teach our nuns quite a lot. Non habit wearing nuns are just a tedious remnant of the 1970s. So I suppose I have fixed opinions about lots of things but none of those things seem to connect. My mother died this year and I can’t imagine that process of dying, anointing reception requiem burial without the rituals of our church. They are a great source of comfort and hope in whatever language.
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
If someone favors traditional practices of the Church (Latin in the Mass, veiling of women, kneeling for Holy Communion…) or has traditional beliefs then they can be considered traditional Catholics in my opinion. Usually, these people attend the Traditional Latin Mass since it has all of the traditions that they favor and is older than the Novus Ordo. I, myself, am a traditional Catholic. 🙂
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. :dts:
 
How important is it, really, to be qualified for this or that label?
What if I use the label and am not qualified?
What if I am qualified and don’t like labels?

Can’t we just be Catholic?
 
clem456 said:
How important is it, really, to be qualified for this or that label?
What if I use the label and am not qualified?
What if I am qualified and don’t like labels?

Can’t we just be Catholic?
Click to expand...
:clapping:
 
zab said:
I think there are a lot of people who fit into the category of being traditional Catholic who do not attend or prefer the Latin Mass, wear veils, and kneel to receive Communion.
Click to expand...
Yep. I love Gregorian chant, incense, bells, etc., but all are applicable to the Ordinary Form Mass and the modern Liturgy of the Hours, which I both prefer to their pre-Vatican II varieties.

I’m fortunate enough to live 35 minutes from a monastery that does all of the above in the Ordinary Form.

But other than that, I consider myself a Catholic (label-free except for “Benedictine” 😉 ), that has a taste for traditional music.
 
zab said:
I think there are a lot of people who fit into the category of being traditional Catholic who do not attend or prefer the Latin Mass, wear veils, and kneel to receive Communion.
Click to expand...
That would depend on whom they compare themselves to, I would think. Traditional, like many adjectives, is really a relative term.
 
ProVobis said:
That would depend on whom they compare themselves to, I would think. Traditional, like many adjectives, is really a relative term.
Click to expand...
Well, in this case , it depends on my answer to the person who asked me what I meant by not by responding “not necessarily” to his post when he said that these people “usually attend Traditional Latin Mass” 😉
 
clem456 said:
Can’t we just be Catholic?
Click to expand...
There’s different flavors of Latin Rite Catholicism, ranging in their orthodoxy and their spiritual and intellectual depth, and not each of these flavors, IMO, is equally suited for growing in holiness.

I feel very strongly that the average Catholic Parish functions much in the same way as your average classroom does — appealing to the average, while the slow fall behind and the advanced get bored. Perhaps many of our Parishes are stuck trying to get people to even do fundamental things that all Catholics should be doing, like going to Confession with some regularity and with sincerity. In other words, a lot of our Parishes are still providing the faithful with milk.

Someone who is serious about their faith, and who wants to be challenged to engage in the necessary work to grow in holiness, and who really wants to devote their lives to prayer and to study, obviously needs a bit more meat.

… for this reason, labels are important, and they serve a purpose, and they help to distinguish milk from meat.

Having said that, obviously, the label is not an end in itself, but then again, absolutely nothing in the spiritual life is an end in itself. We don’t pray just because it’s fun, and we don’t go to Mass because we like to see our friends there. All of these things, and more, are done for God, and for His glory.
 
zab said:
Well, in this case , it depends on my answer to the person who asked me what I meant by not by responding “not necessarily” to his post when he said that these people “usually attend Traditional Latin Mass” 😉
Click to expand...
Some refer to it as Usus Antiquior, or the older use. Some already have stated the OF is no longer a New Mass to them so, yes, I can see where they can describe themselves as leaning traditional. I have no issue with your comment to his post.
 
zab said:
I think there are a lot of people who fit into the category of being traditional Catholic who do not attend or prefer the Latin Mass, wear veils, and kneel to receive Communion.
Click to expand...
The definition of “traditional Catholic” is very subjective, that is why I said that it was my opinion that people who favored what I listed in my previous post could be considered traditional Catholics. I think that, in a strict sense, it can be restricted only to those who attend the Traditional Latin Mass since that is what it is usually used for.
 
Authentic Traditional Catholicism, while maintaining fidelity to the magisterium and the papacy, embodies a different philosophy and worldview than modern Catholicism. It is wrong to deny that such a distinction exists. The modern Church is highly influenced by the nouvelle théologie which arose in the years immediately preceding the Second Vatican Council. The “conservatives” of today’s Church are conservative only in relation to the spectrum of the ideas of the nouvelle théologie. Since the adoption of these ideas during the Council, many have come to erroneously believe that modern day “conservatism” in the Church is synonymous with “traditionalism”. This is simply incorrect. Traditional Catholicism seeks to distance itself from novelty and cling to that which is, you guessed it - traditional.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top