Who said Jesus came to give us a Book?

[Dokimas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tqualey
Hi, Dokimas,

Hi.

Quote:
Christ did not come to earth to give us a book. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples on Pentecost Sunday - the birthday of the Catholic Church - He did not deliver a book. God’s mission on earth was to redeem us from our sins - open the Gates of Heaven for us and give us the ongoing stregth to get there through the Church He founded on Peter.

1. Who said Jesus came to give us a Book? Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to remind and teach, help and comfort.

1. The church was not called the Catholic Church. The term ‘universal’ was an adjective not a noun. Huge difference.

1. And I thank God that’s He would redeem all humans if they’d just trust Him. Thank God that through the Broken Body and Shed Blood of Jesus the Gates of Heaven are open to who-so-ever believe on Jesus.

1. The church Jesus founded was founded upon Him and the truth that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Quote:
The Apostles lead lives that were not perfect. Peter - the First Pope - denied Christ 3x! While there have been a number of Popes who have given bad example through sin - none have denied Christ to His Face!

As a sinner, I’ll not ‘throw stones’ at those you have mentioned. I will say you are correct.

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In spite of the fact that all of these Apostles were sinful - God chose to work through them in a special way. When it comes to Sacred Writers - God inspired them to write His message of salvation. This same God, Who founded the Catholic Church, declared that the Gates of Hell would not prevail. How can this be? Because the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church so it can not teach error.

1. God did and does work through sinners. Whenever and through whom ever God works, it’s alway special.
2. He founded His church which did not get the name ‘Catholic Church’ till some time later.
3. The key word is ‘prevail’. This doesn’t mean the church will always be perfect. It means, as Jesus said in Romans 14 about His children (servants) that when we stumble, God will make us to stand. In spite of our frame (it’s but dust) God will make us to stand and thus prevail.
4. Some of the early apostles tried to get the Gentile converts to be circumcised. That was error which was corrected. Error is not a problem to God. When we trust Him and look to Him, He takes error and corrects it.
5. How do we know that the CC can’t teach error? How do we know … the CC has told us that’s true. IMO, no church teaches perfectly which means there is at least a little bit of error in every church.

Quote:
A classic example of this is the fact, though some think it ridiculous, is that the Bible comes directly from the Catholic Church. There was no Canon of the NT before the 4th Century. There were no Protestants before the 16th Century. So, by accepting the Bible as you claim, even this abridged version, you are accepting what the Catholic Church has determined to be Inspired. How did the Catholic Church know what was inspired and what wasn’t? The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church in this determination! To deny this is to put the Bible at risk for you see, only works from the OT were removed in the 16th Century - none of the Books of the NT. This is really a critical issue - and one that the 40,000 - 160,000 Protestant denominations have uniformly ignored.

The Bible is a collection of letters written in the 1st century. They were copied, shared and passed around. God used the CC to gather them. God is the reason we have the Bible. Remember what Paul said … and this puts your comments in correct perspective, IMO.

1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then NEITHER he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Speaking of increasing thus it’s opposite:

Joh 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” [Spoken by John the Baptist]

All this talk about who’s important is against this verse, IMO.

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God bless

Thank you; He does. And God bless you.

 

[po18guy]

A lot of what you say is exactly right.

The official name of the Church is “The Church of Christ”. Not to be confused with a much smaller and much more recent assembly.

“Catholic” just means “universal”. The first written evidence we have of this is about the year 107-110, shortly after the Apostle John died.

When speaking the the Roman Catholic Church. we simply indicate that the universal Church is currently headquartered in Rome. It does not have to be, but that was the center of power in biblical times. That is where both Peter and Paul went, and that is where they remain today.

As to your point #5, this tends to negate what our Lord told the Apostles when He promised to send the the Holy Spirit to remind them of everything He had taught. If all churches have error, then Christianity is false and truth has failed. We don’t go where we find the most truth, we go where we can find all of it. God wants nothing less for us, and He established a church to last for all time.

God used His Church to write and correctly assemble what we know as the bible, guided by the Holy Spirit. The bible is not meant to be used apart from the authority of the Church that assembled it. Satan used scripture in his temptation of Christ. He had zero authority to interpret scripture, and neither does anyone outside of the Catholic Church.

Christ’s peace be with you.

p.s. I hope and pray that you are baptized.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by po18guy

A lot of what you say is exactly right.

The official name of the Church is “The Church of Christ”. Not to be confused with a much smaller and much more recent assembly.

“Catholic” just means “universal”. The first written evidence we have of this is about the year 107-110, shortly after the Apostle John died.

When speaking the the Roman Catholic Church. we simply indicate that the universal Church is currently headquartered in Rome. It does not have to be, but that was the center of power in biblical times. That is where both Peter and Paul went, and that is where they remain today.

As to your point #5, this tends to negate what our Lord told the Apostles when He promised to send the the Holy Spirit to remind them of everything He had taught. If all churches have error, then Christianity is false and truth has failed. We don’t go where we find the most truth, we go where we can find all of it. God wants nothing less for us, and He established a church to last for all time.

God used His Church to write and correctly assemble what we know as the bible, guided by the Holy Spirit. The bible is not meant to be used apart from the authority of the Church that assembled it. Satan used scripture in his temptation of Christ. He had zero authority to interpret scripture, and neither does anyone outside of the Catholic Church.

Christ’s peace be with you.

p.s. I hope and pray that you are baptized.

I disagree.

To have some errors on the Church doesn’t mean God is not promising what He said. If you believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, OK I respect your belief. But independently of who you believe is the Church of Christ, you can’t say that if it has error that means God broke His promise, this is not true. He fulfilled what He has said, the Holy Spirit has, in fact come and reminded everything He taught (this has nothing to do with new teachings that man have created through time, just what He taught, the essential stuff), this is true. We have seen this in various Christian groups, throughout the times.

For example:

Peter was in error after the coming of the Holy Spirit, in the feast of the First-fruits (Pentecost). Paul had to rebuke him.

Paul Rebukes Peter

Galatians 2:11-21, “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain Gentiles came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them, which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ a minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet, not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

This doesn’t mean God broke His promise, God forbid!!

So this means that all Christians have a possibility to err, even if you believe (everybody does) that you are part of THE REAL Church of Christ. Jesus said that we will prevail against evil, not that we would be immune to it. At the end we will know who prevails and who failed, those who prevail will be written in the book of Life, and will be part of the Church, which is the body of Christ.

Yahweh bless you.

 

[po18guy]

Peter was in error after the coming of the Holy Spirit, in the feast of the First-fruits (Pentecost). Paul had to rebuke him.

It simpy means that Peter was a sinner, just like every Pope, and every Christian. Peter was not actively teaching what he did. When he taught by the Holy Spirit, he was prevented from error.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by po18guy
It simpy means that Peter was a sinner, just like every Pope, and every Christian. Peter was not actively teaching what he did. When he taught by the Holy Spirit, he was prevented from error.

Exactly when he taught by the Holy Spirit he was prevented from error, but when he wasn’t there was a possibility he could , after all he needed to be teaching most of the time. And this applies to every Christian. One’s act teaches others. So the Pope or every Christian may err in their acts and therefore have error. Did Jesus err? No He is the perfect role model, he couldn’t err because (and more reasons of course) that was going to bring confusion and error to his followers, fortunately the Apostles found teachings through His Words and Actions .

Yahweh bless.

 

[po18guy]

Exactly when he taught by the Holy Spirit he was prevented from error, but when he wasn’t there was a possibility he could , after all he needed to be teaching most of the time. And this applies to every Christian. One’s act teaches others. So the Pope or every Christian may err in their acts and therefore have error. Did Jesus err? No He is the perfect role model, he couldn’t err because (and more reasons of course) that was going to bring confusion and error to his followers, fortunately the Apostles found teachings through His Words and Actions .

Yahweh bless.

So, everyone’s a Pope?

 

[MaryandJoseph]

To have Multiple Christian churches creates a confusion. ONE GOD-ONE TRUTH!! If this is so, then how come so many differing denominations within the protestant Christian community?

Because there is only ONE GOD who teaches only ONE TRUTH, it just makes sense that there be only ONE original Christian Church. The official Church teaching and belief is of the Holy Spirit, how man carries this out is sometimes quite another story. The Catholic Church is faithful to all the teachings of God, man sometimes not.

 

[Dokimas]

As to your point #5, this tends to negate what our Lord told the Apostles when He promised to send the the Holy Spirit to remind them of everything He had taught. If all churches have error, then Christianity is false and truth has failed. We don’t go where we find the most truth, we go where we can find all of it. God wants nothing less for us, and He established a church to last for all time.

Christ’s peace be with you.

p.s. I hope and pray that you are baptized.

The problem isn’t with the Holy Spirit doing His job. The problem is that we aren’t always in the proper state to received perfectly.

I disagree. Christianity isn’t false because there’s not perfection in its members. It’s true because the Object of Christianity is the TRUTH.

And may the peace of the Lord Jesus be with you.

BTW, why do you hope I’ve been baptized?

 

[Dokimas]

Someone must have changed the name of this thread.

The purpose of this thread was for Tqualey (and who-so-ever) to be able to respond to me. The thread this was on originally was closed before Tqualey was able to respond.

 

[Dokimas]

I disagree.

To have some errors on the Church doesn’t mean God is not promising what He said. If you believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, OK I respect your belief. But independently of who you believe is the Church of Christ, you can’t say that if it has error that means God broke His promise, this is not true. He fulfilled what He has said, the Holy Spirit has, in fact come and reminded everything He taught (this has nothing to do with new teachings that man have created through time, just what He taught, the essential stuff), this is true. We have seen this in various Christian groups, throughout the times.

For example:

Peter was in error after the coming of the Holy Spirit, in the feast of the First-fruits (Pentecost). Paul had to rebuke him.

Paul Rebukes Peter

This doesn’t mean God broke His promise, God forbid!!

So this means that all Christians have a possibility to err, even if you believe (everybody does) that you are part of THE REAL Church of Christ. Jesus said that we will prevail against evil, not that we would be immune to it. At the end we will know who prevails and who failed, those who prevail will be written in the book of Life, and will be part of the Church, which is the body of Christ.

Yahweh bless you.

Well said.

We will prevail and have total victory in the end. But along the way there maybe and most like will be ‘bumps in the road’.

 

[po18guy]

The problem isn’t with the Holy Spirit doing His job. The problem is that we aren’t always in the proper state to received perfectly.

I disagree. Christianity isn’t false because there’s not perfection in its members. It’s true because the Object of Christianity is the TRUTH.

And may the peace of the Lord Jesus be with you.

BTW, why do you hope I’ve been baptized?

I was not speaking of the goodness or lack thereof in the Church members. Their sinfulness is a given. The Catholic Church has what is known as the “deposit of faith” to rely on. This is the unchanging and unchangeable Apostolic teaching of the Church, revealed by God, and it is totally independent of the Church members. We essentially have a script. When one follows that script, no matter how lousy of a person he is, the truth is taught.

I answered because I believe I am qualified to speak as “anyone that cares to comment”

 

[Dokimas]

I was not speaking of the goodness or lack thereof in the Church members. Their sinfulness is a given. The Catholic Church has what is known as the “deposit of faith” to rely on. This is the unchanging and unchangeable Apostolic teaching of the Church, revealed by God, and it is totally independent of the Church members. We essentially have a script. When one follows that script, no matter how lousy of a person he is, the truth is taught.

I answered because I believe I am qualified to speak as “anyone that cares to comment”

You’re more than qualified. Thank you for your response.

 

[po18guy]

You’re more than qualified. Thank you for your response.

I just hope that this helps a little bit. Oftentimes, Catholics and non-Catholics are speaking of the same things, but using different terms. As well, we use the Bible, Sacred (Apostolic) Tradition and the Magisterium (teaching authority given by Christ to the Church) as the three-legged stool of faith. All trace to God - or we would never use them.
Example? Sunday worship on the “Lord’s day” is an Apostolic Tradition. It is written about in Acts, but was a Tradition long before it was written down.

Christ’s peace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

He couldn’t teach anyway. Peter wasn’t in charge of the Council of Jerusalem. James was!

It simpy means that Peter was a sinner, just like every Pope, and every Christian. Peter was not actively teaching what he did. When he taught by the Holy Spirit, he was prevented from error.

 

[po18guy]

He couldn’t teach anyway. Peter wasn’t in charge of the Council of Jerusalem. James was!

This was not teaching - it was the formulation of doctrine. James, who was the first Bishop of Jerusalem (The Archbishop of Jerusalem holds what is called, to this day, the See of James), had apparent control of the proceedings, but Peter was still pre-eminent among them all. Recall here that James remained in in Jerusalem, but Peter was sent not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7). When the Pope recently visited England, the Archbishop Vincent Nichols was in charge, but was not the head of the Church.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Someone must have changed the name of this thread.

The purpose of this thread was for Tqualey (and who-so-ever) to be able to respond to me. The thread this was on originally was closed before Tqualey was able to respond.

Posters are not allowed to start threads addressing another poster (that’s CAF rules, not mine, sorry) and the topic was rather ambiguous. Your first question provided a nice ‘hook’ for people to respond. If you have another title in mind, PM me.

 

[Dokimas]

Posters are not allowed to start threads addressing another poster (that’s CAF rules, not mine, sorry) and the topic was rather ambiguous. Your first question provided a nice ‘hook’ for people to respond. If you have another title in mind, PM me.

Oh. Okay; thank you.