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jpk1313
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The catholic church is the true church becuse the indwelling holy spirit of god told me so. and that is good enough for me
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hillsteven
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I’ve heard this before, but it bears consideration with your objections, Amateur Pianist…
You keep mentioning that you have some expectation that the “true church” should have special graces that you “should” expect to see in some better form of Christian…
The quote I just re-heard that points to the potential, if not the refutation of this, is that “The Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners.” One could almost expect that the true church would be a magnet for some of the more egregious sinners. Did not Jesus Himself dine with tax collectors and harlots?
The state of individual souls seems to me to be quite a poor litmus test for the inherent “trueness” of any one organization, Catholic or otherwise.
You keep mentioning that you have some expectation that the “true church” should have special graces that you “should” expect to see in some better form of Christian…
The quote I just re-heard that points to the potential, if not the refutation of this, is that “The Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners.” One could almost expect that the true church would be a magnet for some of the more egregious sinners. Did not Jesus Himself dine with tax collectors and harlots?
The state of individual souls seems to me to be quite a poor litmus test for the inherent “trueness” of any one organization, Catholic or otherwise.
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AmateurPianist
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Except that isn’t quite what I meant. I have and am still having difficulty finding the right words to say what I did mean. So I understand not being understood.
Actually I agree with you. I remember a long while back reading the book “The Cross and The Switchblade” about a street preacher (David Wilkerson) who preached to the gangs in New York City and reached gang members for Jesus Christ. These kids obviously were not perfect after receiving Jesus Christ, but their lives were changed. That ladies and gentlemen is the church being a hospital for sinners.
In fact that does relate to this thread. I would have to believe when reading the Cross and The Switchblade that God did this through an organization that is inferior to the other organization that in three important ways: (1) It lacks the real presence, which the “true church” organization claims is mandatory for salvation (2) the organization is not protected by God so that it is guaranteed to be without errors in its teaching. In fact to the extent that the inferior organization differs from the true church in its teaching, it is just wrong (3) God did this through an organization that is not the vehicle of salvation anyway. The only organization through which there is salvation is the organization claiming to be the one true church.
Now you will respond with a post saying that this scenario is not logically impossible and I agree it is. It just seems very, very inconsistent. If God so wants to reach the gangs of New York City with the life saving message of Jesus Christ, why didn’t God use the organization that claims itself to be the true church…that is assuming its claims are correct?
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Bill_Pick
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How can a Baptist say they are the one triue church when it did not get here until after the reform and Jesus Christ started His Church in 33ad by Our Lord Jesus…
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hillsteven
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God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, guides the Church that he created and keeps her free from error as he promised to Peter. God, in his infinite Wisdom, also created Man in his own image. In so doing, he gave us all free will. This means that we are all free to make our own decisions. It seems to me that what you are proposing is in some measure the question of why doesn’t God take a firmer hand on the tiller and directly guide her church in a concrete, tangible way that we could all recognize and say “Aha! THAT church organization is the one where God resides!” The inherent challenge is that in order to do this, he would in some way have to supersede our free will in order to insure that it is only His One, True Church which acts as you suggest.
In reality, we see the Truth of God in many faith organizations! I would propose that while we can find many things “wrong” with many religions, we can also find God’s truth in them as well, to a lesser or greater extent. The Catholic Church historically has the direct lineage from the apostles and Peter, and thus we propose that in Her we find the “fullness of the faith”. Other churches/faith communities/organizations contain some subset of this fullness. This is in contrast to saying that other faith communities are wrong outright.
If you are looking for special graces, they do exist, as I have proposed earlier, in the Sacraments. Whether or not you are willing to accept the reality of those Sacraments holds no bearing on their existence or power. They exist whether you accept them or not.
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schaick
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Jesus says “I will build my church”. Does He say ONE church, A church? No, He says my church.
Just as we have One GOD revealing Himself to us in 3 persons we have Jesus’ Church celebrating our common faith in many beautifully diverse ways. We see evidence of differing views of how to celebrate Christianity in the New Testament.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
The very first Church to be formed was in Jerusalem, the people called out- Jews.
biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/cbrfj/church-jerusalem_bruce.pdf
The second group called out to be in Jesus’ Church were the Samaritans, third group called out were the Gentiles.
“How can a Baptist say they are the one triue church when it did not get here until after the reform and Jesus Christ started His Church in 33ad by Our Lord Jesus…”
They, we, all Christians thanks to the documentation by the Apostles have all the information needed for our salvation.
Just as we have One GOD revealing Himself to us in 3 persons we have Jesus’ Church celebrating our common faith in many beautifully diverse ways. We see evidence of differing views of how to celebrate Christianity in the New Testament.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
The very first Church to be formed was in Jerusalem, the people called out- Jews.
biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/cbrfj/church-jerusalem_bruce.pdf
The second group called out to be in Jesus’ Church were the Samaritans, third group called out were the Gentiles.
“How can a Baptist say they are the one triue church when it did not get here until after the reform and Jesus Christ started His Church in 33ad by Our Lord Jesus…”
They, we, all Christians thanks to the documentation by the Apostles have all the information needed for our salvation.
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jmcrae
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Thanks to the Catholic Church, then, since we wouldn’t have any of that documentation, if the Catholic Church had not preserved it, and if the Catholic Church were not even now continuing to preserve it.
There is no equivalent in Protestantism of the Vatican Library, that I am aware of. If the Catholic Church, together with all of its institutions, documents, and libraries, were to cease to exist today, Protestantism would have nothing left to stand on, and would cease to exist tomorrow.
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tweetymom
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They would have their faith in Jesus! Praise God for His son.
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jmcrae
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Yes, but without the documentation, “Jesus” could be anything - and in the next generation, with no teaching materials to pass on the message to the children, simply gone from the world.
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tweetymom
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They have the Holy Bible and are happy with that. If you are happy with what you have, God Bless you.
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jmcrae
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Keep in mind that the Bible is one of the documents of the Catholic Church that would disappear if the Catholic Church were to disappear with all of its documents and institutions (as would all Sunday Schools and other educational institutions, since these are also institutions of the Catholic Church).
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tweetymom
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God Bless you if you believe that.
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Bill_Pick
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AP ,Can you tell us what is the largest and oldest in the world today day What orainization if not the Cathloic Church.
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wisdomseeker
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Only the CC can stand up and speak to the whole world in the name of Christ. that seems to be a special Grace to me.
only the CC can stand up and speak to all religions in teh world in the name of Christ. this seems to be a special Grace.
only the CC can call a Council in the name of Christ. this seems to be a special Grace.
that is enough for now.
only the CC can stand up and speak to all religions in teh world in the name of Christ. this seems to be a special Grace.
only the CC can call a Council in the name of Christ. this seems to be a special Grace.
that is enough for now.
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Bill_Pick
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schaick
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That is correct the Scriptures have been preserved by the Catholic Church. Jesus
“There is no equivalent in Protestantism of the Vatican Library”
Absolutely as far as originals go, but thanks to the printing press and now the internet we have alot of copies, pictures of some of the rarer texts!
**Whether Catholics like it or not Christians each have a part in this body of Christ, Jesus’ Church. **
The Apostles opened the Kingdom to all the world in Acts. The Apostles and their immediate students helped write down and preserve the Word.
Church fathers helped us label the concepts that are in the Bible such as- the Trinity, the Apostles Creed.
Protestant Churches helped curb horrible man-made traditions.
Today each of us are disciples.
You are forgetting what Jesus said about His Church!- Whether the Catholic Church exists or not His Church will continue on.
I have a few Bibles I could share with people.
off topic here but - Have you ever heard of this Malachy, some Irish priest ? I just learned about some prophecies - the next Pope is supposed to be the last Pope?!? What is that all about?
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wisdomseeker
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this is a mystery.
the Apostles opened the Kingdom to the whole world?
Jesus commanded His Church to go to the whole and preach the Gospel. it doesnt say pick up your Bibles ordain yourselves and preach.
St Paul never said that those outside the authority of the Apostles a man is part of the Church. it is One Faith, One Mind. One Teaching, One Church and not many. everyone agree in the Faith. does your religion fit this inscription?
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schaick
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Christians have councils too fashioned after the first Churches-administering authority locally.
All Christians are speakng to the other religions in the name of Christ, through missions, Bible donations, etc
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schaick
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Yes, read Acts and you will see it- look for people hearing the message and believing, recieving the Holy Spirit and getting Baptized.
Who is saying anything about that? Christian do have ordained ministers.
Although I did preach to my kids as they were growing up!!
Ephesians 4
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Sorry but trinitarian Christians all hold the basic tenets of that one faith. Catholics haven’t cornered the market on that. The one Catholic denomination is just one part of the One Body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
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jmcrae
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By the Apostles and those appointed by the Apostles (priests, deacons, and Bishops) - they weren’t baptizing each other, or making themselves to be self-appointed leaders.
They are self-ordained, though - “God called me to preach, and I know because I say so” - there is no laying on of hands from a Successor of the Apostles, in their case.
You taught your kids - that is your duty as a parent.
The non-Catholic communities have amputated themselves from the Body of Christ, though, and they no longer function as part of it. If you cut off your arm, it no longer cooperates with the rest of your body to help you do the things you need to do. In the same way, the Protestant communities don’t listen to the Pope - they just do their own thing.
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