Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

[Bill_Pick]

God has commanded us to believe the TEACHING CHURCH; and we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle,{2Peter3,} that there is no private prophecy or interpretation of the Scriptures, for the unlearned and unstable twist the very Scriptures, to their own damnation." That is strong language, but that is the language of St. Peter.

Conclusion : We must find the true Church. Yes/no ?

God Bless
onenow1

Our Lord said I will build my church, and that is one Church not all the denomintations we have to day…Its right in the Bible read Matt.16 again its right in front of you,have a good time on you little trip and be safe

 

[onenow1]

Our Lord said I will build my church, and that is one Church not all the denomintations we have to day…Its right in the Bible read Matt.16 again its right in front of you,have a good time on you little trip and be safe

I have no argument with this Bill, I should have added there is only one true teaching church; and that is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Adding this:> Yes/No< was sloppy.

Peace
onenow1

 

[AmericanJosiah]

The Catholic Church alone can trace its origin to Jesus.

The denomination cannot. There is no evidence of ANY denomination prior to the 4th century - The Catholic Church or any other. Yes, I agree - CHRISTIANITY can trace its roots to Jesus, but that’s just as true for me as it is for you, ALL Christians have our spiritual roots going back through every generation back to Jesus. That doesn’t mean that each one of us, individually, is “The True Church”

Jesus will not abandon his Church.

I agree! But, obviously, He never promised The Catholic Church anything at all.

Yes, I understood your point that The Catholic Church MUST be “The One True Church” because it alone currently and officially agrees with it alone in all matters that it alone currently determines is right to have agreement upon. Yes. But AT LEAST the same is true for every other denomination, too. Heck, I typically agree with myself in all matters that I think it’s good to agree upon (currently, anyway) and yet I don’t find you stating definitively that ERGO I must be “The True Church” - infallible, unaccountable, incapable of error in matters of faith and morals, the sole authority, sole interpreter, sole arbiter, whatvever I say is what Jesus says. So you don’t seem to accept even your own argument/rubric. Self alone currently, officially agreeing with self alone on the matters that self alone thinks it good to agree on has NOTHING to do with self being “The One True Church.”

.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Of course it does.

The Catholic Church alone can trace its origin to Jesus.

Jesus will not abandon his Church.

You are free to reject his Church, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

Now we get to laws of inheritance.

If you start with entity A.

Entity A somehow divides and you now have two entities.

These entities divide further.

Entity A is a logical parent for all of the entities that exist as a result of division.

Apply this same principle to the church.

We start with the apostolic church. The apostolic church calls itself Catholic

In the 400s this church splits and we now have the original Catholic and the Oriental Orthodox church.

The apostolic Catholic church is a logical parent to both the Catholic Church after the split and the Oriental Orthodox organization. Thus both organizations trace their roots to the apostolic Catholic church.

This continues to all remaining divisions and all subsequent organizations.

Now if in any of these division God favors one side or another side, then we have a separate issue. But since God is not chiming on this thread, I do not presume to speak for Him.

You are assuming that on each and every division that occurred, God favors the organization that calls itself Catholic,

 

[reteeks21]

Now we get to laws of inheritance.

If you start with entity A.

Entity A somehow divides and you now have two entities.

These entities divide further.

Entity A is a logical parent for all of the entities that exist as a result of division.

Apply this same principle to the church.

We start with the apostolic church. The apostolic church calls itself Catholic

In the 400s this church splits and we now have the original Catholic and the Oriental Orthodox church.

The apostolic Catholic church is a logical parent to both the Catholic Church after the split and the Oriental Orthodox organization. Thus both organizations trace their roots to the apostolic Catholic church.

This continues to all remaining divisions and all subsequent organizations.

Now if in any of these division God favors one side or another side, then we have a separate issue. But since God is not chiming on this thread, I do not presume to speak for Him.

You are assuming that on each and every division that occurred, God favors the organization that calls itself Catholic,

Not bad points, but if I may, I don’t think “favors” is not the right concept here. Addressing the fact that there was and is an original Church is the absolute truth. When Jesus said he wouldn’t abandon it that is also the truth. I don’t believe He has abandoned Protestant churches, but even so that doesn’t mean that they resemble the Church Jesus established.

 

[crazzeto]

I hope the title is fairly self-explanatory.

By the church, I do not mean that only card carrying members of this organization have eternal life. I do mean that some certain graces or gifts are only available to those within the organization and that it would be to the benefit of every Christian to be a part of this organization.

To get this started, I like to brainstorm. These are possibilities that I have heard along the way. Any additions to my possibilities are welcome.

If one organization today is “The True Church”, I have come up with the following logical possibilites:

• The Catholic organization is “The True Church”.
• The Orthodox organization is “The True Church”.
• A restorationalist organization (Mormon, JW) is “The True Church”
• The trail of blood theory, i.e. “The True Church” was underground for a certain period of time and now exists today in one form or another (most commonly in independent, separatist, fundamentalist Baptist)
• A trivial possibility that nobody believes: “The True Church” is one Protestant organization.

If no one organization today is “The True Church” I have come up with the following possibilities

• What we see today is compatible with how Jesus designed the church.
• What we see today is not compatible with how Jesus designed. Therefore what we see today is a result of sin.

There of course are sub possibilites under these two. Two that I have come up with in the “not compatible” category are

• Jesus designed local organizations only. Centralization and denominations are outside of His design and therefore sin.
• Jesus designed one centralized church. Because of sin, this once centralized church fragmented. As a result Jesus can not bless the individual fragments in the same way He could bless the one church.

Anyway, that is what I have come up with. Nothing really original here (I’m not that original), just assorted theories that I have heard along the journey.

I’d say it’s kind of a hybird… The CC is the one True Church, but it is a Church in Schism which is most certainly the result of sin and is in fact not what Christ designed. It’s my hope that all Chirstians are praying for the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer:

22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

Many different Churches with no central authority or common doctrine is not compatible with Christ’s prayers.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Now we get to laws of inheritance.

If you start with entity A.

Entity A somehow divides and you now have two entities.

,

The Catholic Church never divided.

It was attacked and abandoned from he beginning, but it marches on.

1.2 billion strong and growing.

Jesus will not abandon his Church.

He wants us to be one as He and the Father are one.

This will only happen in the Catholic Church.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’d say it’s kind of a hybird… The CC is the one True Church, but it is a Church in Schism which is most certainly the result of sin and is in fact not what Christ designed. It’s my hope that all Chirstians are praying for the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer:

Many different Churches with no central authority or common doctrine is not compatible with Christ’s prayers.

AP. Matin Luther said that any milkmaid that can read can start his or her Cristian denomination based on her/his interpretation of the bible, when he insisted that the bible cpuld be interpreted by indivduals and that the bible is sole authority of Christianity…AP are you going to start a new Church

 

[Teneas]

The denomination cannot. There is no evidence of ANY denomination prior to the 4th century - The Catholic Church or any other.

.

The one thing I would say about this is that we have records of the Popes, or Bishops of Rome if you will from Peter onward. Sounds like the Church stayed in existence even before 400 AD or so.

 

[AmateurPianist]

The Catholic Church never divided.

Logically it did.

At one point in time there was one apostolic church existing in one organizational structure.

At a later point in time this one apostolic church started to call itself Catholic.

At a later point in time there was more than one organizational structure. The earliest that I know of were what is now called the Oriental Orthodox church and what is now called the Catholic church. This was in the 300s or 400s. I think.

Since that time there has been more than one organizational structure when before there was one organizational structure. So we see in the 300s or 400s there were 2 organizations where before there was 1.

That is the definition of division.

Now if you want to claim to speak for God and claim that God sided with the organizational structure (and gave this organization unique graces and blessings that he could not the other organization) that kept the name Catholic, you can go ahead. But until God chimes in on the subject or until I can come across something which is definitely God speaking (as opposed to somebody giving his spin on what God is saying) I myself will not presume to speak for God in this.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I’d say it’s kind of a hybird… The CC is the one True Church, but it is a Church in Schism which is most certainly the result of sin and is in fact not what Christ designed. It’s my hope that all Chirstians are praying for the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer:

Perhaps. But there are still four logical possibilities here.

(1) God continues to bless the Catholic organization with certain blessings and giftings that He can not provide to the remaining organizations. In this case God favors the organization that calls itself Catholic above the remaining ones.

(2) God does not bless any of organizations with any blessings and giftings above the remaining organizations. In this case God favors none of the above.

(3) God chooses to bless the organization that splits with giftings and graces He does
not provide the Catholic organization. God sides with the other one

(4) It never was about the organization.

Many different Churches with no central authority or common doctrine is not compatible with Christ’s prayers.

And that just may be true.

I would be stupid if I chose to argue that one. I might still be NotTooSmart but I am not stupid.

But that does not answer the fundamental question on how exactly God views the church today that appears to be distributed amongst many organizations.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Not bad points, but if I may, I don’t think “favors” is not the right concept here. Addressing the fact that there was and is an original Church is the absolute truth. When Jesus said he wouldn’t abandon it that is also the truth. I don’t believe He has abandoned Protestant churches, but even so that doesn’t mean that they resemble the Church Jesus established.

What word would you use when God chooses to bless one organization with graces and giftings that He can not and will not bless the remaining organizations?

Favors is the word that comes to my mind, but maybe there is a better word here.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Logically it did.

 

[AmateurPianist]

The Church did not divide. Some groups have left the Church throughout the history of the Church.

The Catholic Church today is the same as the Catholic Church at pentecost.

I would expect that every organization that considers itself a part of the church of Jesus Christ would have its own distinct spin on the divisions that have occurred. Part of the spin being that their organization of course is closest to the apostolic church…Another part of ths spin is of course the nature of the division and whose fault it is.

Anyway when one day you see two organizations when before there were one, a division took place. Even if one organization ‘left’ there was still a division. That is just a part of the definition of the word

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I would expect that every organization that considers itself a part of the church of Jesus Christ would have its own distinct spin on the divisions that have occurred.

Other than the Orthodox, which other Church claims to have started at Pentecost?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Other than the Orthodox, which other Church claims to have started at Pentecost?

Trail of Blood Baptists for one I think.

Actually everybody claims they started at Pentecost.

The difference being not everybody claims that the apostolic church is exclusively the domain of their organization.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Perhaps. But there are still four logical possibilities here.

(1) God continues to bless the Catholic organization with certain blessings and giftings that He can not provide to the remaining organizations. In this case God favors the organization that calls itself Catholic above the remaining ones.

(2) God does not bless any of organizations with any blessings and giftings above the remaining organizations. In this case God favors none of the above.

(3) God chooses to bless the organization that splits with giftings and graces He does
not provide the Catholic organization. God sides with the other one

(4) It never was about the organization.

And that just may be true.

I would be stupid if I chose to argue that one. I might still be NotTooSmart but I am not stupid.

But that does not answer the fundamental question on how exactly God views the church today that appears to be distributed amongst many organizations.

Our Lord start ONE church the Cathloic Church and it was start in 33ad if yiu read Matt 16-18 He said that IS my Lord I WILL BUILD MY church AND CHURCH IS ONE

 

[AmateurPianist]

Our Lord start ONE church the Cathloic Church and it was start in 33ad if yiu read Matt 16-18 He said that IS my Lord I WILL BUILD MY church AND CHURCH IS ONE

Amen.

But there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in that passage of Scripture that precludes the posibility of this ONE CHURCH existing in MANY ORGANIZATION. I do observe that in the trinity we have ONE GOD existing in THREE PERSONS.

(I can use caps also)

 

[onenow1]

Trail of Blood Baptists for one I think.Actually everybody claims they started at Pentecost.
The difference being not everybody claims that the apostolic church is exclusively the domain of their organization.

Indeed ! But below tells quite a different story, some lay their claim trying to hang on to the original roots of the Catholic Church,or if you want to be technical the Eastern Orthodox, that indeed have Apostolic succession.

"But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, “We must obey GOD rather than men.”
Acts 5:29

Some communities.

The foundation of the Lutherans, the beginning of Protestantism, was laid down by Martin Luther.
1483-1546.The foundation of the Anabaptists was laid down by Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons, Thomas Munzer and others.
1496-1561. The foundation of the Mennonites was laid down by Menno Simons in a split from Anabaptists.
1491-1547 The foundation of the Anglican Church of England, was laid down by King Henry VIII.
1509-1564. The foundation of the Calvinists was laid down by John Calvin, as he taught predestination.
1510-1572. The foundation of the Presbyterians was laid down by John Knox, who studied under Luther.
? The foundation of the Congregationalists was laid down by Robert Brown, a branch from Puritanism.
1570-1612. The foundation of the Baptists in Holland was laid down by John Smyth.
1603-1683. The foundation of the Baptists in America was laid down by Roger Williams.
1624-1691. The foundation of the Quakers was laid down by George Fox in England.

There are tons more to the present date !

Does anyone here think the Holy Spirit sent all these men, to start a new ecclesial community that have distinct doctrinal differences of opinion and keep spliting, even to this day, with no arbitor to adjudicate with confidence?

As the Father has SENT me, I also send you."
John 20:21

In light of the above verse who sent the above ecclesial communities on their mission ?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

 

[onenow1]

Amen.

But there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in that passage of Scripture that precludes the posibility of this ONE CHURCH existing in MANY ORGANIZATION. I do observe that in the trinity we have ONE GOD existing in THREE PERSONS.

Never seperated in will…

Peace, one now1