Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

[zodmek]

The Bible makes it clear what the true church is, doesn’t it? It’s not defined organizationally at all, as far as I can tell.

What am I missing?

 

[zodmek]

Indeed ! But below tells quite a different story, some lay their claim trying to hang on to the original roots of the Catholic Church,or if you want to be technical the Eastern Orthodox, that indeed have Apostolic succession.

"But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, “We must obey GOD rather than men.”
Acts 5:29

Some communities.

The foundation of the Lutherans, the beginning of Protestantism, was laid down by Martin Luther.
1483-1546.The foundation of the Anabaptists was laid down by Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons, Thomas Munzer and others.
1496-1561. The foundation of the Mennonites was laid down by Menno Simons in a split from Anabaptists.
1491-1547 The foundation of the Anglican Church of England, was laid down by King Henry VIII.
1509-1564. The foundation of the Calvinists was laid down by John Calvin, as he taught predestination.
1510-1572. The foundation of the Presbyterians was laid down by John Knox, who studied under Luther.
? The foundation of the Congregationalists was laid down by Robert Brown, a branch from Puritanism.
1570-1612. The foundation of the Baptists in Holland was laid down by John Smyth.
1603-1683. The foundation of the Baptists in America was laid down by Roger Williams.
1624-1691. The foundation of the Quakers was laid down by George Fox in England.

There are tons more to the present date !

Does anyone here think the Holy Spirit sent all these men, to start a new ecclesial community that have distinct doctrinal differences of opinion and keep spliting, even to this day, with no arbitor to adjudicate with confidence?

As the Father has SENT me, I also send you."
John 20:21

In light of the above verse who sent the above ecclesial communities on their mission ?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

Seems you’re a little confused. Those are Christian groups you listed. Jesus and the Bible are the foundation for all of them. Some “Calvinists” don’t care a whit about John Calvin, or Quakers about George Fox. All those guys you list were managers and promoters and teachers, not deities.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Seems you’re a little confused. Those are Christian groups you listed. Jesus and the Bible are the foundation for all of them. Some “Calvinists” don’t care a whit about John Calvin, or Quakers about George Fox. All those guys you list were managers and promoters and teachers, not deities.

we know these are the promotores, that is what he just said. what he is bringing up is the fact that Jesus was sent and He sent 12 Apostles and the Apostles who had authority from Jesus sent others. now, the question is who sent these promotores? the Bible alone? because as we know they were not there at the times of the Apostles and they were not sent by those sent by the Apostles therefore they cannot have any authrority to teach.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Indeed ! But below tells quite a different story, some lay their claim trying to hang on to the original roots of the Catholic Church,or if you want to be technical the Eastern Orthodox, that indeed have Apostolic succession.

"But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, “We must obey GOD rather than men.”
Acts 5:29

Some communities.

The foundation of the Lutherans, the beginning of Protestantism, was laid down by Martin Luther.
1483-1546.The foundation of the Anabaptists was laid down by Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons, Thomas Munzer and others.
1496-1561. The foundation of the Mennonites was laid down by Menno Simons in a split from Anabaptists.
1491-1547 The foundation of the Anglican Church of England, was laid down by King Henry VIII.
1509-1564. The foundation of the Calvinists was laid down by John Calvin, as he taught predestination.
1510-1572. The foundation of the Presbyterians was laid down by John Knox, who studied under Luther.
? The foundation of the Congregationalists was laid down by Robert Brown, a branch from Puritanism.
1570-1612. The foundation of the Baptists in Holland was laid down by John Smyth.
1603-1683. The foundation of the Baptists in America was laid down by Roger Williams.
1624-1691. The foundation of the Quakers was laid down by George Fox in England.

There are tons more to the present date !

Does anyone here think the Holy Spirit sent all these men, to start a new ecclesial community that have distinct doctrinal differences of opinion and keep spliting, even to this day, with no arbitor to adjudicate with confidence?

As the Father has SENT me, I also send you."
John 20:21

In light of the above verse who sent the above ecclesial communities on their mission ?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

As I have said all along, I for one am not going to defend the existence of multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine.

But just because one side may be wrong, it does not follow that the other is right. That neglects the possibility (probability) that all sides are wrong to some extent.

But as I have said before, this does not eliminate the possibility (in my mind probability) that God views his one church as existing in several organizations.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As I have said all along, I for one am not going to defend the existence of multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine.

But just because one side may be wrong, it does not follow that the other is right. That neglects the possibility (probability) that all sides are wrong to some extent.

But as I have said before, this does not eliminate the possibility (in my mind probability) that God views his one church as existing in several organizations.

It must be One Truth and not many. you would have to explain how God tells the CC that the His Body is True food and His Blood is True drink, than tell protestants it is not.
Explain this.

 

[zodmek]

we know these are the promotores, that is what he just said. what he is bringing up is the fact that Jesus was sent and He sent 12 Apostles and the Apostles who had authority from Jesus sent others. now, the question is who sent these promotores? the Bible alone? because as we know they were not there at the times of the Apostles and they were not sent by those sent by the Apostles therefore they cannot have any authrority to teach.

Not making a lot of sense to me. The Holy Spirit is adequate to send a Christian out into the world to pray, teach, and minister with the guidance of Scripture. You think you need a ticket punched on Earth by a human being?

(The Bible is God-given guidance, not an actor that sends anyone anywhere to do anything. The Holy Trinity does the sending.)

 

[AmateurPianist]

It must be One Truth and not many. you would have to explain how God tells the CC that the His Body is True food and His Blood is True drink, than tell protestants it is not.
Explain this.

This is frustrating. I am repeating myself again.

I am not going to defend the existence of multiple organizations in competition with each other for adherents procaliming contradictory doctrine.

However, assuming this is not what God had in mind when He designed the church…

It does not necessarily follow

that there must be one organization out of the many organizations that exist today, that God considers solely His church and that He provides blessings and graces to that He can and will not provide to the remaining organizations.

I have said this before. This is getting frustrating responding in the same way to the same points.

 

[Janet1983]

I hope the title is fairly self-explanatory.

By the church, I do not mean that only card carrying members of this organization have eternal life. I do mean that some certain graces or gifts are only available to those within the organization and that it would be to the benefit of every Christian to be a part of this organization.

To get this started, I like to brainstorm. These are possibilities that I have heard along the way. Any additions to my possibilities are welcome.

I have one more possibility for you that you did not include:
The true Church is made up out of all believers today. It is not one organisation, one specific group of Christians and not a fragment. The one true Church consists of all true Christians.

Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.
In Him,
Janet

 

[AmateurPianist]

I have one more possibility for you that you did not include:
The true Church is made up out of all believers today. It is not one organisation, one specific group of Christians and not a fragment. The one true Church consists of all true Christians.

Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.
In Him,
Janet

Actually I do believe this…

but…

This statement to me is quite incomplete. It does not tell me how if at all Jesus intends this one church to be organized.

Left by itself I get the impression that God is perfectly cool with multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine. I have a difficult time believing that this is OK with God.

If this is not OK with God, the next questions would be how did we get to this state and how can it be fixed. I do observe that I am powerless to fix anything and it is probably God that would do the fixing not any of us.

But I do think that us Protestants, under the guise of “the church is all believers” are much too dismissive of the fact that we do have multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine.

 

[onenow1]

Seems you’re a little confused. Those are Christian groups you listed. All those guys All those guys you list were managers and promoters and teachers, not deities. .

.
Methinks you are confused. You need to reread the post and understand what I am trying to convey, actually convey not what you think I am expressing.

Read below.

Note: Several years after M. Luther started the reformation, Luther surveyed the damage that Sola Scriptura, and what its accompanying individual interpretation of Holy Scripture, had done to his movement. divisions started quickly from his Lutheran church, with Munzer, going this way Calvin going that way, Zwingli going another way, and with all scattering the flocks.

Bottom line zod the Holy Spirt would not tell each group something different.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1opcorn:

 

[AmateurPianist]

Another reason why I believe “The church is all believers” is incomplete.

I have several friends who right now do not go to any church and have not for years. Their church is a few families meeting in a house for a Bible Study or something like that.

Since all believers are the church, their “church” to them is just as legitimate as one that has pastors, deacons, and some semblance of organization. After all, since all believers are the church, who needs a real one.

I think they call this the “emergent church”.

Anyway, something about this just does not strike me as right.

(from what little I have heard their Bible teaching sounds quite messed up FWIW)

 

[Janet1983]

Actually I do believe this…

but…

This statement to me is quite incomplete. It does not tell me how if at all Jesus intends this one church to be organized.

Left by itself I get the impression that God is perfectly cool with multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine. I have a difficult time believing that this is OK with God.

If this is not OK with God, the next questions would be how did we get to this state and how can it be fixed. I do observe that I am powerless to fix anything and it is probably God that would do the fixing not any of us.

But I do think that us Protestants, under the guise of “the church is all believers” are much too dismissive of the fact that we do have multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine.

Yes I agree that sin is distorting quite a few things. I do however believe that the one Church is not an earthly organisation and that Jesus Christ preserved His Church throughout the ages, not in form of an organized body, but in form of the believers who turn to Him and lay at His feet.
I long to see the day when the whole truth will be obvious for all of us and nothing will be hidden. That one glorious day when we will see Him face-to-face. Until then we will continue to see how sin is distorting the beauty of God’s creation.

May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Him,
Janet

 

[Janet1983]

Another reason why I believe “The church is all believers” is incomplete.

I have several friends who right now do not go to any church and have not for years. Their church is a few families meeting in a house for a Bible Study or something like that.

Since all believers are the church, their “church” to them is just as legitimate as one that has pastors, deacons, and some semblance of organization. After all, since all believers are the church, who needs a real one.

I think they call this the “emergent church”.

This is called a house church. You will find those kind of churches all over the world, but especially in areas where Christians are persecuted.
It is very likely that the early Christian churches in the time of persecution had a similar system of meeting in the homes of their members.

May the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus.

In Him,
Janet

 

[onenow1]

As I have said all along, I for one am not going to defend the existence of multiple organizations in competition with each other proclaiming contradictory doctrine.

But just because one side may be wrong, it does not follow that the other is right. That neglects the possibility (probability) that all sides are wrong to some extent.

But as I have said before, this does not eliminate the possibility (in my mind probability) that God views his one church as existing in several organizations.

Everything is possible with God, and the CC agrees some Christian communities indeed have some truth ,however not all truth. That is why it is necessary to have one teaching voice, the Holy Bible speaks to us in written form, human kind needs a living voice for instruction.

Example : You could not even have a Christin Community without a living voice to teach such as a Pastor, Pope, Deacon,after all we are body and soul as we need both to grasp any messages in the spiritual or temporal realm. There needs to be one teaching voice not many.

Jesus did not send the Apostles, or the 70, to teach different truths.

Peace,onenow1

 

[Bill_Pick]

Indeed ! But below tells quite a different story, some lay their claim trying to hang on to the original roots of the Catholic Church,or if you want to be technical the Eastern Orthodox, that indeed have Apostolic succession.

"But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, “We must obey GOD rather than men.”
Acts 5:29

Some communities.

The foundation of the Lutherans, the beginning of Protestantism, was laid down by Martin Luther.
1483-1546.The foundation of the Anabaptists was laid down by Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons, Thomas Munzer and others.
1496-1561. The foundation of the Mennonites was laid down by Menno Simons in a split from Anabaptists.
1491-1547 The foundation of the Anglican Church of England, was laid down by King Henry VIII.
1509-1564. The foundation of the Calvinists was laid down by John Calvin, as he taught predestination.
1510-1572. The foundation of the Presbyterians was laid down by John Knox, who studied under Luther.
? The foundation of the Congregationalists was laid down by Robert Brown, a branch from Puritanism.
1570-1612. The foundation of the Baptists in Holland was laid down by John Smyth.
1603-1683. The foundation of the Baptists in America was laid down by Roger Williams.
1624-1691. The foundation of the Quakers was laid down by George Fox in England.

There are tons more to the present date !

Does anyone here think the Holy Spirit sent all these men, to start a new ecclesial community that have distinct doctrinal differences of opinion and keep spliting, even to this day, with no arbitor to adjudicate with confidence?

As the Father has SENT me, I also send you."
John 20:21

In light of the above verse who sent the above ecclesial communities on their mission ?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

Did we not have this tread a few weeks back that the Cathloic Church did not give us the Bible …Are was it one just like this one

 

[AmateurPianist]

This is called a house church. You will find those kind of churches all over the world, but especially in areas where Christians are persecuted.
It is very likely that the early Christian churches in the time of persecution had a similar system of meeting in the homes of their members.

May the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus.

In Him,
Janet

I have been in a house church before. A few years back in the town of my birth, Assemblies of God was starting a local organization. Since they were new, they did not have property so they met in someone’s house. But even then there was some type of organization, this house church had a pastor who was recognized and accountable to a larger organization. And of course it eventually grew and they are now a modest sized congregation of 100 or so in their own building.

What my friends are involved with is nothing like this. There is no leadership or anybody who is accountable to a larger group. Just a few Christians getting together.

And with no accountability anywhere, things can and do get real weird real quickly. For example my friends are now bordering on universalism and there are many roads to God other than Jesus Christ. And sin really doesn’t matter at all in their newfound “freedom in Christ.” At least that is what I have been told.

These are friends who once were an assistant pastor of an evanglical church when they were associated with a “real church”.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Did we not have this tread a few weeks back that the Cathloic Church did not give us the Bible …Are was it one just like this one

Yeah that is the thread where I was told that my church is a brothel and that I had demons.

Fine examples of Christian charity there.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is frustrating. I am repeating myself again.

I am not going to defend the existence of multiple organizations in competition with each other for adherents procaliming contradictory doctrine.

However, assuming this is not what God had in mind when He designed the church…

It does not necessarily follow

that there must be one organization out of the many organizations that exist today, that God considers solely His church and that He provides blessings and graces to that He can and will not provide to the remaining organizations.

I have said this before. This is getting frustrating responding in the same way to the same points.

It is frustrating i quite understand you. i on the other hand am not. i know that the One Church Jesus found 2000 years ago is the same One today. i dont have to go around trying to figure out if God may be ok with multiple different beliefs. this is trying to make God accept my ideas. i dont think so.

If our Lord says: “I will build my Church and the gates will not prevail against.” than i should believe that He did found the Church 2000 years ago. anything after that is just counterfeit. we know the devil is quite good at that. as we remember he did this in the Garden when God instructed Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. then the serpent comes and causes confusion by telling Even that it is ok to eat the fruit.

confusion, is it not what we have? unless it is ok for you to believe that there is not One Church but many with different doctrines. but i am pretty sure Jesus made it clear, One Church, One Faith and not many. not contracditory doctrines, many contracditory doctrines brings confusion, agree? confusion does not come from God, agree? therefore this One Church as many of you believe that it is made of all believers even if one teaches one thing and others teaches contrary cannot be True. either one is pleasing to God and the other is in disobedience, or there is no one Truth but many.

 

[Janet1983]

I have been in a house church before. A few years back in the town of my birth, Assemblies of God was starting a local organization. Since they were new, they did not have property so they met in someone’s house. But even then there was some type of organization, this house church had a pastor who was recognized and accountable to a larger organization. And of course it eventually grew and they are now a modest sized congregation of 100 or so in their own building.

What my friends are involved with is nothing like this. There is no leadership or anybody who is accountable to a larger group. Just a few Christians getting together.

And with no accountability anywhere, things can and do get real weird real quickly. For example my friends are now bordering on universalism and there are many roads to God other than Jesus Christ. And sin really doesn’t matter at all in their newfound “freedom in Christ.” At least that is what I have been told.

These are friends who once were an assistant pastor of an evanglical church when they were associated with a “real church”.

I really can’t tell you what is going on here, but I know one thing for sure:
From what I have seen here, it does not look like they are still on the straight and narrow and they might want to think about their foundations and get back into Scripture. I am saying this with very limited information and I might be wrong. I cannot say what the individual members of this group actually have written on their hearts.
As we can see in Scripture it is easy for a church to loose their way and Paul does warn the individual churches quite a few times and points out their flaws. The book of Revelation does give us another insight in this topic. As Christians it is our duty to constantly see that we are still on the right way and serving the Lord.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

In Him,
Janet

 

[AmateurPianist]

It is frustrating i quite understand you. i on the other hand am not. i know that the One Church Jesus found 2000 years ago is the same One today. i dont have to go around trying to figure out if God may be ok with multiple different beliefs. this is trying to make God accept my ideas. i dont think so.

If our Lord says: “I will build my Church and the gates will not prevail against.” than i should believe that He did found the Church 2000 years ago. anything after that is just counterfeit. we know the devil is quite good at that. as we remember he did this in the Garden when God instructed Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. then the serpent comes and causes confusion by telling Even that it is ok to eat the fruit.

confusion, is it not what we have? unless it is ok for you to believe that there is not One Church but many with different doctrines. but i am pretty sure Jesus made it clear, One Church, One Faith and not many. not contracditory doctrines, many contracditory doctrines brings confusion, agree? confusion does not come from God, agree? therefore this One Church as many of you believe that it is made of all believers even if one teaches one thing and others teaches contrary cannot be True. either one is pleasing to God and the other is in disobedience, or there is no one Truth but many.

Again (repeating myself)

…what you are doing is providing evidence that what we see today is not what God designed.

You again are not providing any evidence that God has spoken to the effect of that when you see what appears to be many organizations in His name, that one and only one of these organizations must be His church. And that God will pour out special graces and blessings to this one organization that He will not to the remaining organizations.

Again (repeating myself)

Evidence that the other guy is wrong is not evidence that you are right.