Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

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You have indeed hit here upon a seeming paradox. Part of the answers I believe really do lie in history. I know that many of us, myself included, have referred to scriptures and the writings of the earliest church fathers… and there is good reason for that. It occurs to me that the disconnect here may lie in the fact that we have read those writings, some of us extensively, while you have not; at least I believe not extensively. John Henry Newman has said (paraphrasing, since I don’t have the quote handy) that to know the history of Christianity is to become Catholic. This is someone who, if you read his early writings, was vehemently anti-Catholic… yet converted himself to Catholicism.

Having brought him up in the same paragraph as the Church Fathers, here’s one quote from him on those same men:
“The Fathers are primarily to be considered as witnesses, not as authorities. They are witnesses of an existing state of things, and their treatises are, as it were, histories, - teaching us, in the first instance, matters of fact, not of opinion. Whatever they themselves might be, whether deeply or poorly taught in Christian faith and love, they speak, not their own thoughts, but the received views of their respective ages.”
{Primitive Christianity, 1833-1836, in Essays and Sketches, ed. Charles Frederick Harrold, London: Longmans, Green and Co., 1948, p. 126}

This I think is pertinent here because the writings of those great men show us a reflection of what was believed and taught during their times, and they date from St. Polycarp, who himself as a child sat at the feet of St. John, the Apostle, all the way to St. John of Damascus, who died in 749. One thing I’ve seen pointed out from multiple sources is the fact that we see several things time and time again in the writings of these church fathers.
Given how unbelievably conservative the Church (when I use capitals I am referring to the Catholic Church) has always been, and how reluctant she has always been to embrace any new ideas, it should be noted that some of the viewpoints that are so vehemently argued against by many non-Christians today were proposed as a basis for proofs against heresies by many of these men! For them to do that, it must have been understood by their audiences that those things were understood by all of their contemporaries to be true. Some examples are the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Divinity of the person of Christ, the authority of the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope), etc. Let’s not derail the discussion by debating those points here in this thread, but it is an interesting perspective to consider, if nothing else.

~Steven
I have read some of the early church fathers. I have focused on the early ones like Clement and Ignatius. Since reading John Wesley, I have come to the opinion that Scripture should also be read through the lens of history. I have also come to the opinion that which you call Tradition is basically the same concept Wesley had of reading Scripture through history. We probably differ a little on the relative importance of history versus Scripture (Wesley was what Wikipedia calls Prima Scriptura). But this is a little off topic.

I have concluded that it is a fallacy to say whose side the Early Church Fathers would be on if one could invent a time machine and transport them through time to today. For one thing they had absolutely no knowledge of the divisions that would later occur in Christianity and the issues underlying these divisions.

I could make a case that the Earliest Church Fathers were very passionate about the person of Jesus Christ and would relate most to an inner city ethnic church or a third world church. They could deal with what other differences exist. But again it would be a fallacy for me to conclude this is absolute truth. I just can not presume to speak for them.
 
Hi:
I fear that I have sort of danced around what I was trying to say for fear of being misunderstood (since I have been misunderstood in the past). But I will just spit it out.

I have a big disconnect when I read about (1) an organization claiming to be the one true church with special benefits and superior->inferior (2) this same organization being associated with (a) inquisitions and other cases of Christians killing Christians for Jesus in the past (b) the priest abuse scandals of today.

Now let me be clear. I am not raising these to claim “We are better than you”. You are absolutely right that we have done and do the same thing.

But these do serve as evidence in my mind that “you are just as messed up as we are”.

As well as just observing Catholics versus Protestants in everyday life and here (by observing Catholics here versus Protestants it still seems true that “you are just as messed up as we are”.

I guess I am looking for some evidence of observing you versus us that you possess a very special faith that possesses something we just don’t have. And I just don’t see it.

This of course does not logically disprove anything. I: am not dealing with logic here just as much as perception.
i think what you need is to read the lives of the Saints of the CC.
 
Just one comment on the smell test that has dominated the last two or three pages of this thread.

As I have said, the Catholic Church does not pass the smell test of seeming to be positively different from the rest of us (and I think even in this what I am saying is misunderstood).

I recognize however, that this smell test in itself does not logically disprove the possibility that an organization claiming to be the exclusive church of Jesus Christ is in fact The church of Jesus Christ even if it seems just as messed up as the rest of us.

The significance to me is how easy it is for me to buy into your claims. It obviously would be much easier to buy into a claim of “One True Church” if an organization just smelled like it.

But if an organization that claims to be the “One True Church” just doesn’t smell like it, well I have erected in my mind a gazillion questions (well maybe not that many) that must be answered to my satisfaction (not yours) before I am going to buy into it (per the Scripture in my signature).
 
Just one comment on the smell test that has dominated the last two or three pages of this thread.

As I have said, the Catholic Church does not pass the smell test of seeming to be positively different from the rest of us (and I think even in this what I am saying is misunderstood).

I recognize however, that this smell test in itself does not logically disprove the possibility that an organization claiming to be the exclusive church of Jesus Christ is in fact The church of Jesus Christ even if it seems just as messed up as the rest of us.

The significance to me is how easy it is for me to buy into your claims. It obviously would be much easier to buy into a claim of “One True Church” if an organization just smelled like it.

But if an organization that claims to be the “One True Church” just doesn’t smell like it, well I have erected in my mind a gazillion questions (well maybe not that many) that must be answered to my satisfaction (not yours) before I am going to buy into it (per the Scripture in my signature).
I think (and this is just the opinion of one lone sinner in the wilderness) that you have some understandable questions. Not even objections, perhaps, for that’s not what I’m sensing here… just some very valid questions. I think we here on the forum can help to some degree (and I hope we have!!), but In the end, you’re gonna have to do a lot of research and study on your own. I have been able to answer your questions, even if not to your satisfaction, with some degree of ease not because I just naturally know them, but as a result of literally YEARS of study. I studied the Church from as many angles as I could think of for over two years before I came to the conclusion that she is who she says she is. Even then, I had several significant obstacles to overcome, and some of those did not get dealt with until well AFTER becoming Catholic. I was able to get to the point, however, that I was at least willing to say “I don’t see it, I don’t even know if I agree with it, but I’m willing to take it on faith.” This is a prayer, with some modifications, that is worth saying… If you don’t see it, and aren’t willing to take it on faith, ask God for help in your search. You seem to be on “the right track” at any rate. As I think I said to Anna recently, wherever your study leads you, at least you will know that in the end, you are seeking Truth.

God Bless you my friend,

~Steven
 
Why is it that you consider your ‘church’ to be the true one when Christ said he will build His Church on Peter, when He said that he will give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, that what oeter holds bound on earth is held bound in heaven? Do you imagine that Christ built many churches? That there are many sets of keys to heaven?
 
The Catholic Church gives its gifts to the whole world; it does not hoard them. Hospitals, schools, Universities (heck, professors still dress up like Catholic priests for Convocation) roadside inns, hotels, innocent until proven guilty, inductive and deductive logic - all these things, you would not have, if not for the Catholic Church.
 
Just one comment on the smell test that has dominated the last two or three pages of this thread.

As I have said, the Catholic Church does not pass the smell test of seeming to be positively different from the rest of us (and I think even in this what I am saying is misunderstood).
My Catholic parish is the only church in our area that smells of incense. Does that count? 🤷 😛
 
if you are refering to all the bad press the Catholic Church has recieved, and are making judgments based on a liberal media bias, that in and of itself is a problem. even with all the bad press, its still less than one percent of the priesthood that have violated the law of man and God. thats a far better track record than say… the puplic school system today. yes there is chaff with the wheat, but the Savior said that would happen. so no the gates of hell have not prevailed. and the Church is right where the Good Lord wants her to be, and still is what Jesus designed it for 2000 years ago. reguardless of what the liberal media is saying. peace:)
A+
 
The Cathloic Church is the world’s largest, and Christianity’s oldest, religious body. Her 1.4 Billion members inhabit the width and breadth of the earth, comprising almost one-fifth of the total human population. She is far and away the mnst popular religious concept the world has ever known And the CC is one and the body of Christ
 
The Cathloic Church is the world’s largest, and Christianity’s oldest, religious body. Her 1.4 Billion members inhabit the width and breadth of the earth, comprising almost one-fifth of the total human population. She is far and away the mnst popular religious concept the world has ever known And the CC is one and the body of Christ
Bill,

I agree, and think you’re absolutely spot-on…
…now we need to prove it to our skeptical friend, Amateur Pianist. :confused:
That’s what I’ve been floundering around attempting to do here. :eek:
 
In the United States there are 2 major political parties (and several minor one). Each major political party of course considers themselves to be the one true political party.

Now (the Moral Majority notwithstanding) I don’t think that God has a preferred United States political party that he chooses to bless above the others. At least that is what the evidence that I have observed suggests.
Yep, I’m reading this thread from the beginning…

Amateur–your statement regarding US political parties has really helped me as I think about this “true church” issue.

Thank you!

Back to reading page 2…
 
Bill,

I agree, and think you’re absolutely spot-on…
…now we need to prove it to our skeptical friend, Amateur Pianist. :confused:
That’s what I’ve been floundering around attempting to do here. :eek:
Thank You but AP will be a skeptic unti the day our Lord calls him home., Have you read his post on the sex abuse,that one you need to read it is a post you will not forget and is way out on line,Well have a great day and may our good Lord bless you and AP
 
Bill,

I agree, and think you’re absolutely spot-on…
…now we need to prove it to our skeptical friend, Amateur Pianist. :confused:
That’s what I’ve been floundering around attempting to do here. :eek:
I think he is pretty happy where he is at as* am in Christ. God Bless:)*
 
In the United States there are 2 major political parties (and several minor one). Each major political party of course considers themselves to be the one true political party.
Now (the Moral Majority notwithstanding) I don’t think that God has a preferred United States political party that he chooses to bless above the others. At least that is what the evidence that I have observed suggests.
Interesting post? Did you know that the LDS mormon Church is the official religion of the United States that Congress passed and approved? Funny how you should bring up political parties in the U.S and Compare them to God’s preferences?

**2000 years ago Jesus spoke these words from Matthew 16:16-19 **on whom he will build his Church upon. And it was never a political party preference, country, nation. Jesus built his Church upon Peter and his apostles which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. There is no comparison to political parties to the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church.

There is only One Faith built upon Peter and the apostles which is the pillar of Truth, which is the body of Jesus Christ which is ever present body, blood, soul and divinity in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and give unto God what belongs to God;
 
I think he is pretty happy where he is at as* am in Christ. God Bless:)*
That is true.

I think I have been up front from the beginning in stating that I am not dissatisfied and looking to change churches.

Neither am I looking to convert Catholics to my organization.

This has been an interesting thread. I guess my mind has not been changed though.
 
**2000 years ago Jesus spoke these words from Matthew 16:16-19 **on whom he will build his Church upon. And it was never a political party preference, country, nation. Jesus built his Church upon Peter and his apostles which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. There is no comparison to political parties to the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church.

There is only One Faith built upon Peter and the apostles which is the pillar of Truth, which is the body of Jesus Christ which is ever present body, blood, soul and divinity in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and give unto God what belongs to God;
That is all very nice. But bold face font notwithstanding, it ultimately is your opinion and your own personal interpretation of these Scriptures.
 
That is all very nice. But bold face font notwithstanding, it ultimately is your opinion and your own personal interpretation of these Scriptures.
Slight correction to your statement… this is not one person’s opinion, but is what the Church teaches about them, and has consistently for 2 millennium. This is one difference you need to understand, even if you don’t accept it. I think I’ve mentioned this in a post before, but this is a key difference between the stance of the average Catholic apologist, and the average non-Catholic apologist… we are restating, usually in our own words, the teaching of the Church that has been consistently teaching the same message for 2000 years, with the authority given by Jesus Christ and passed down through the ages. At best, any Protestant can trace their given church’s teachings (at least those that differ from the Catholic teachings) back to the middle of the 16th century. There is a passage in one of the epistles I believe where a centurion is reading the scriptures, and explicitly states that he has not the authority to interpret scriptures, but seeks the wisdom of someone who does. Proverbs 28:26 states that he who trusts in himself is a fool, and so we trust in an authority that we have come to know is reliable.
 
Slight correction to your statement… this is not one person’s opinion, but is what the Church teaches about them, and has consistently for 2 millennium. This is one difference you need to understand, even if you don’t accept it. I think I’ve mentioned this in a post before, but this is a key difference between the stance of the average Catholic apologist, and the average non-Catholic apologist… we are restating, usually in our own words, the teaching of the Church that has been consistently teaching the same message for 2000 years, with the authority given by Jesus Christ and passed down through the ages. At best, any Protestant can trace their given church’s teachings (at least those that differ from the Catholic teachings) back to the middle of the 16th century. There is a passage in one of the epistles I believe where a centurion is reading the scriptures, and explicitly states that he has not the authority to interpret scriptures, but seeks the wisdom of someone who does. Proverbs 28:26 states that he who trusts in himself is a fool, and so we trust in an authority that we have come to know is reliable.
It is a fact that this is what the Catholic organization claims concerning itself.

However…

Just because a person or organization makes certain claims concerning itself, it does not follow that these claims are the truth.

It is your opinion and the opinion of likeminded Catholics here, that these claims are in fact the truth of God. It is my opinion that these claims are not substantiated and proven.

I don’t think any of us can prove our opinions are indeed facts, but I’m open to being wrong here. The best we can hope to do is to give evidence for our respective opinions and to give good reasons why our opinions are our dearly held beliefs. At least that is my opinion.

I admit that the word opinion is sort-of a loaded word. The word “belief” might have been less loaded.
 
It is a fact that this is what the Catholic organization claims concerning itself.

However…

Just because a person or organization makes certain claims concerning itself, it does not follow that these claims are the truth.

It is your opinion and the opinion of likeminded Catholics here, that these claims are in fact the truth of God. It is my opinion that these claims are not substantiated and proven.

I don’t think any of us can prove our opinions are indeed facts, but I’m open to being wrong here. The best we can hope to do is to give evidence for our respective opinions and to give good reasons why our opinions are our dearly held beliefs. At least that is my opinion.

I admit that the word opinion is sort-of a loaded word. The word “belief” might have been less loaded.
We claim these truths because they are verifiable by historic documents, beginning with the Bible. The Church has taught this, and her members have believed it, since the original Apostles still walked the earth. There are some that have had no problems taking this by faith and believing…sight unseen. I was not such a person. I spent years doing the research, and that’s what I’ve recommended you do, and continue to recommend. It is very easy to sit behind your keyboard and question everything anyone says. It is a very different thing to take the extensive amounts of time to do the research yourself. I don’t think that there’s much that any of us can or will say, in and of itself, that will change your mind. That’s God’s job. The key though, is that in all of the research you do, keep an open mind, and begin each session with prayer, that you may be open to the Truth that God has to reveal to you. This will likely not be a short process, but I wish you Godspeed. We are here to help you, of course, and that’s what we’re trying to do, but you have to do some of the work yourself, even if it’s just lots of prayer time submitting yourself to the Will of God. If all you do is decide that there is no way to know, and close your mind, you are playing God yourself… and them’s dangerous waters.

Please take the above the way it was intended. I’m not rebuking you, nor am I judging you. I don’t claim to know your heart or where you’re coming from, so all I have to respond to is what I perceive from your posts. I do want to help, but don’t fall into the trap of the proverb I quoted to you earlier… 😦
 
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