Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

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What is a “prayer”? I’m not Catholic, and I’ve not read all the responses in this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been covered. I won’t give a dictionary definition of “prayer”, but will attempt to define it as I see it. A prayer is a communication from man to God, with Whom we believe we have a spiritual connection. The spiritual connection, i.e. the Holy Spirit, allows us to communicate to/with God even though we may not be able to physically see Him, or hear Him audibly. No spiritual connection, no communication. In order for us to believe that we can communicate with the Blessed Mary, we must believe that Mary has been endowed with a God-like spiritual connection to the billions of earthly believers.

I can’t ask Brother Joe from Bible Study to pray for me as I’m kneeling by my bed. I actually have to be in his presence to make the request. Why should I believe that Mary can hear my requests if I were to ask her to pray for me?
 
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gladtobe:
I think it is wrong to pray to anyone other than Jesus. Isn’t there a clear statement that Jesus wishes us to come DIRECTLY to him in prayer, rather than to Mary as an intercessor? .
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I ask my entire church to pray for me, including those who are already with Him.
 
There is no doubt that Mary is very alive in heaven. But so is Abraham, Daniel and King David. Does this mean we should also pray to them for divine assistance? Or maybe we should pray to John the Baptist? After all, Jesus said there is none greater in heaven then John the Baptist.

So if we were to pick n choose which one we deem worthy of hearing our spiritual requests to pass on to Jesus, we would have a whole truckload of departed saints to choose from. IF, that was what God wished us to do. But the question remains, is this what God wishes and Jesus as well?

If Jesus wished for us to come to his mother in prayer or for any spiritual need, then why didn’t he mention this during his ministry. Why didn’t he tell his apostles while with them, " If I’m not around and my Mother is, just let her know what you need and she will let me know?" But Jesus never gave any hint that Mary was to be a intercessory to him at all? And wasn’t Jesus God in the flesh? Didn’t he know men’s hearts even before they would ask him?

Also, why did Jesus specifically say, COME UNTO ME, all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your souls rest". What he should have said, according to modern day Catholic dogma, was “Come unto my mother, all ye that are heavy laden and she will let your requests be known to me and I will give you rest for doing so.” But he never even implied such a meaning.

Further, this leads us to the question, if we must come to Mary to have Jesus now grant our special requests, then wouldn’t that show Jesus is deficient in his high priestly role?

One poster mentions the elders in Rev 4 & 5. These elders are for one, not human beings, but a special class of heavenly beings as are the four beasts. In Rev 7, the great multitude of the saints are picture before these elders, God and the angels in heaven during the tribulation that befalls the earth.
It doesn’t say that the “elders” are in fact praying for the saints, but most likely are. But rather the prayers of the saints symbolically rise up from the earth to heaven and come into God’s presence. This is all it really states.

In conclusion, allow me to re-iterate. 1.Jesus never appointed Mary as an intercessory while on earth or when he ascended to heaven. The Godhood is exclusively the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Modern day Catholicism has those in supreme authority as God the Father, God the Son who is King, Mary as Queen of heaven and the Holy Spirit. Thus a creature rules alongside divinity. Which is unbiblical but disproportional as well. Point 2- Jesus was very emphatic that he wishes us to come to him for all our needs. He is the giver of life and not Mary.

In the Hail Mary prayer and other Marian prayers, Catholics are to ask Mary to be with them “at the hour of our death” She is called our sweetness and “our life”. Clearly it is Jesus who should be the one we should ask to be with us in the hour of our death and not Mary. For only Jesus has the power to give us eternal life.

I’m sure Mary, and all the communion of saints pray for the church as a whole. But modern Catholicism has placed Mary in a role BEYOND what her role was originally. She has been declared a co -ruler by being called a Queen OF HEAVEN. A co-redemptrix, by being called “our life” and especially a co- mediatrix by Catholics going to her in constant prayer for spiritual needs and requests to God.

I am not over exaggerating the issue. Just turn on the TV. Go to Guadeloupe, Mexico and see the goddess devotion given to the giant Madonna statue in the city. Poor peasants crawl on their knees before this statue. Is this Christian? I call it going overboard, from the Mary of the bible.
 
There is no doubt that Mary is very alive in heaven. But so is Abraham, Daniel and King David. Does this mean we should also pray to them for divine assistance?
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Yes. And “all you holy patriarchs” is part of the litany of saints.

Consider this …

According to Webster, “pray” means “to make a request in a humble manner.” This is how pray is used in the KJV of the Bible, where people “pray” to other people.

“Whose daughter [art] thou? tell me, I pray thee” (Gen 24:23)

According to Vine’s Expository of New Testament Words,
**Greek: ***erotao - *“to ask,” is translated by the verb to pray in Luk 14:18,19; 16:27; Jhn 4:31; 14:16; 16:26; 17:9,15,20; in Act 23:18, RV, “asked” (AV “prayed”); in 1Jo 5:16, RV, “should make request” (AV “shall pray”).
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So, your assertion that we are permitted only to make a humble request to Jesus alone is rather absurd. St. John the Apostles spoke to angels and saints in his Revelation, while caught up in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day. I don’t see this as prohibited in Sacred Scripture.
 
we would have a whole truckload of departed saints to choose from.
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Yes, I believe Scripture describes them as a “cloud of witnesses” but “truckload of departed saints” is essential the same.
 
If Jesus wished for us to come to his mother in prayer or for any spiritual need, then why didn’t he mention this during his ministry.
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Ask the question differently… If he DIDN’T want us to humbly request that other Christian’s pray for us, then why did he not prohibit it? Paul tells us that we are to pray for one another. Why are heavenly Christians not part of the same Vine of Christ in your understanding?

Didn’t the Psalmist give us a Scriptural example of invoking the heavenly angels and saints directly in prayer? (Ps. 103:20–21). In Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” EeeeeeK! We’re praying to angels and all his hosts!!! How unScriptural is our Scripture!!
 
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gladtobe:
But the question remains, is this what God wishes and Jesus as well?
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But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

John 21:25
 
Or maybe we should pray to John the Baptist?
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Good idea and don’t forget to pray to your loved ones and friends who have died too.
But he never even implied such a meaning.
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Have you ever contemplated Jesus’ first miracle?
 
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gladtobe:
I think it is wrong to pray to anyone other than Jesus…Why can’t a person just pray to Jesus…Why do we need Mary for anything in our prayers when Jesus will fulfill all our needs? That is the question.
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HELLO, earth to gladtobe??? Do you ignore the Holy Spirit? Do you ignore God the Father? How sad, I often pray to ALL THREE persons of God. How sad we have to ignore our Trinity.

‘Pray’ means ‘to ask’. Is it wrong to ask Blessed Mary, the mother of JESUS to be in our prayer chain to God? Do you have prayer chains at your church? Is it wrong ‘to ask’ your wife and friends to pray for your surgery to go well? We have prayer chains on earth and in heaven. God is the God of the living so the Saints are alive and with God and can help take our prayer to him.

Revelations even speaks of those in heaven carrying ours prayers to God.

Lookup the definition of pray. You will find that the catholics are absolutly correct in the way we use it. Look up the Church Fathers and other points in history and find when Protestants STOPPED asking for others to be in their prayer chain.

God bless,
 
**ST CLEMENT OF **ALEXANDRIA
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer] (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

**ST JEROME **
You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . .But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [AD. 406]).
 
:banghead: ‘goddess’ devotion… gladtobe ??? Making Mary beyond her role ??? for a Catholic, your understanding of our faith leaves a lot to be desired.

Maybe some folks over do it (with the crawling on the knees type stuff - which I have never witneesed or seen on any show), but MAry deserves every consideration and title that has been given to her.

As for the title “Co-redemptorix” that literally means she was ‘with the Redeemer’ during His life and passion (which is indeed the case!). Your attitude smacks of the Protestant claims that somehow, we are equating Mary to Jesus or that we are deifying our Blessed Mother. We are NOT.

AS Darth Vader says, "I find your lack of faith (or misconception of our faith), very disturbing "
:bigyikes:
 
modern Catholicism has placed Mary in a role BEYOND what her role was originally…
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Errr… no. Protestants simply don’t study history very thoroughly. Observe…

St. Irenaeus (ca. AD 189) stated: “Mary … by her obedience became the cause of her own salvation and the salvation of the whole human race.” (Adv. haer. III 22,4).

St. Ephrem (d. 373) said of Mary, in a prayer ascribed to him: “After the Mediator thou art the mediatrix of the whole world” (Oratio IV ad Deiparam. 4th Lesson of the Office of the Feast).

St. Jerome said: “By a woman the whole world was saved” (Tract. de Ps. 96).

**In other words, the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix is of such antiquity that it pre-dates the canonization of Scripture. **

Here’s more…

St. Germanus of Constantinople (d. 733) stated: “Nobody can achieve salvation except through thee … O Most Holy One … nobody can receive a gift of grace except through thee … O Most Chast One” (Or. 9,5. Lesson of the Office of the Feast, cite by Ott, ibid., p. 214)

Others notable Catholics who have asserted that Mary is the univeral dispenser of grace by her intercession in heaven include St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Bernardine of Siena, St. Peter of Canisius, St. Alphonsus Liguori.

Pope Leo XIII: “From the great treasure of all graces, which the Lord has brought, nothing, according to the will of God comes to us except through Mary” (*Octobre mensi, *1891)

Pope Pius X calls Mary: “the dispenser of all gifts, which Jesus has acquired for us by his death and His blood” (Denzinger 1978 a)

Pope Benedict XV declared: “All gifts which the Author of all good has deigned to communicate to the unhappy posterity of Adam, are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin” (AAS 9, 1917, 266)

Your claim that this is some novel teaching of “modern Catholicism” merely shows you haven’t sufficiently studied the matter. If anything, this should prove to you how astonishingly steadfast the Catholic Church has been in her beliefs from the earliest centuries.
 
God gave us everything through Mary. We didn’t exalt Mary, God did. It seems most reasonable that we recognize that and do likewise, offering everything back to Jesus through Mary.
 
I call it going overboard, from the Mary of the bible.
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Call me skeptical, but you don’t sound Catholic. Since when was the Bible the sole rule of Catholic faith? Unless you’re willing to charge a whole heck of a lot of saints with heresy, you have some 'splaining to do.

The Catholic Faith is based upon the Word of God, delivered (“traditioned”) once and for all in the first century. It is not based upon Sola Scriptura. You haven’t shown how asking Mary or any other departed saint is against Scripture. Furthermore, your implication that this is a “modern” Catholic doctrine is simply ignorant.

I suggest you prayerfully consider these words of Jesus: “He who hears you, hears me.” Either you accept the authority of what the Bible calls the “pillar and foundation of truth” or you do not. Please don’t pretend that re-defining Christianity into your own personal interpretation of Scripture is valid. The Arians tried that and St. Athanasius refuted them by quoting the orthodox interpretation from “apostolical men” of the Church.

Are you aware that in the history of Christianity, asking Mary for her intercession has more unanimous assent than the canon of Scripture? Heck, even Lutherans and Methodists pray the Rosary.
 
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gladtobe:
If Jesus wished for us to come to his mother in prayer or for any spiritual need, then why didn’t he mention this during his ministry. Why didn’t he tell his apostles while with them, " If I’m not around and my Mother is, just let her know what you need and she will let me know?" But Jesus never gave any hint that Mary was to be a intercessory to him at all?
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Actually, I read in my bible that one of the last things Christ did for us was to give us a new mother - His mother, in fact. It seems as though Christ, during the most important moment in all human history, saw fit to direct our attention to His mother. Since Christ could not die without giving His mother to us, I would recommend paying a little more attention to her. You see, we are brothers and sisters of Christ, and God is likewise our Father. If we share a Father, and Christ is our brother, doesn’t it make sense that Mary is *our *mother as well?!? And unless you are insisting that we simply cannot ask our parents to pray for us (as that would displease God), I see no reason why you should have a problem with this…

May the Lord Jesus forgive any disrespect shown to the Blessed Mother,
RyanL
 
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deltawcharlie:
What is a “prayer”? I’m not Catholic, and I’ve not read all the responses in this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been covered. I won’t give a dictionary definition of “prayer”, but will attempt to define it as I see it. A prayer is a communication from man to God, with Whom we believe we have a spiritual connection. The spiritual connection, i.e. the Holy Spirit, allows us to communicate to/with God even though we may not be able to physically see Him, or hear Him audibly. No spiritual connection, no communication. In order for us to believe that we can communicate with the Blessed Mary, we must believe that Mary has been endowed with a God-like spiritual connection to the billions of earthly believers.

I can’t ask Brother Joe from Bible Study to pray for me as I’m kneeling by my bed. I actually have to be in his presence to make the request. Why should I believe that Mary can hear my requests if I were to ask her to pray for me?
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Wlelcome,
I’d like to make some observations and comments on your post.
That prayer is restricted to “a communication from man to God” is, by your own words, your definition of prayer. That doesn’t mean that it is a correct definition of prayer or the only definition of prayer; nor does it allow for different kinds of prayer, e.g., intercessory prayer. “God-like” is a term which could be seen as alluding to the fallacious notion that Catholics think Mary a goddess. Not so! As for a “spiritual connection” between those in heaven and those on earth, I believe such a connection exists. Is not the Church the body of Christ?
Are not members of his body “spiritually” connected? Does one who passes into eternal life cease being a member of the body of Christ? As for “Brother Joe,” having to be in another’s presence to communicate with them is but one limitation of our earthly existence. It does not necessarily follow that it is the same for those who have entered eternity.
 
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gladtobe:
If Jesus wished for us to come to his mother in prayer or for any spiritual need, then why didn’t he mention this during his ministry. .
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Silence from scripture is not a convincing argument. During his ministry, Christ didn’t command anyone to write down his sayings, call them the Gospels, and append them to scriptures then in existence.
 
To itsjust Dave
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                    Your quotes fomr Jerome and Ireneus:
St. Irenaeus (ca. AD 189) stated: “Mary … by her obedience became the cause of her own salvation and the salvation of the whole human race.” (Adv. haer. III 22,4).

St. Jerome said: “By a woman the whole world was saved” (Tract. de Ps. 96).
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                       My Reply- If this is what these two Greek philosophers said and meant, then they are heretics and outright liars, according to the scriptures. Remember all doctrine must AGREE with scripture and not add on to it or take away from it.

                                        The New Testament clearly says that Jesus came into the world to save sinners and not Mary. Also without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sin and hence no one can be saved. Jesus Christ and not Mary is declared to be the Savior of the world. See I Tim 4:10.

                                         The blasphemous statement St Jerome made is heresy and a lie of the devil. All  honor and glory is to be given to Jesus Christ alone, for man's salvation. He died alone on Calvary's cross for our sins and not Mary. I was not aware that the Catholic church now believes that both Jesus and Mary are co- Saviors of the world. One learns new things everyday I suppose.
 
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gladtobe:
In the Hail Mary prayer . . . , Catholics are to ask Mary to be with them “at the hour of our death”
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Oh Please! Enter the words of the Hail Mary here and read them.
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gladtobe:
modern Catholicism has placed Mary in a role BEYOND what her role was originally. . . . .to Guadeloupe, Mexico and see the goddess devotion given to the giant Madonna statue in the city. Poor peasants crawl on their knees before this statue. Is this Christian? I call it going overboard, from the Mary of the bible.
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“modern” Catholicism does not teach idolatry. There may in fact be idolatry going on today, as was in the past, and the Church should correct this and educate those who may be doing it out of ignorance; but it is not in accordance with Catholic doctrine.
 
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