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Ann_Cheryl
Guest
I was asking questions of gladtobe.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Our Blessed Mother interceded for the Pope with her Son JESUS!:tsktsk: Mary was NOT crucified for our sins and is NOT our Savior,she is our Mother,she did STAND at the foot of the cross to see her Son being tortured and put to death
If we are brothers and sisters in Christ and members of His body who is our Mother:nope: Honor your mother and father,and if you believe death seperates us from Christ then I am sad for you that you would deny His resurrection.Do not put the sting back in death.
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Shlemele
Guest
Yikes…
All I got to say is that;
A) I’m protestant, but I believe in intercessory prayer so I have no problem with petitioning the saints much like you would a friend
B) If you are protestant and hear someone say “I am gong to pray to Mary because I want (insert request here)” it sounds like you are asking Mary to grant a favor and skipping Jesus all together. I’m not saying that is what you are asking, it is just how it comes off to us.
C) I think the thread has missed an important thing, sometimes we don’t really know that is best for us, God does and petitioning saints like it was a high school prom vote wont make a bit of difference if you are asking for something that is outside his will. For exsample an amorous teen praying that he parents are gone this weekend do he can seduce his girlfriend is not a prayer that I believe God would honor. We get caught up in our own request so much (even those with the best of intentions) that I think we over-state our influence.
In my church there are martyrs that we believe teach us how to live godly lives, my favorite is Dirk Willems, let me share a bit bout him;
All I got to say is that;
A) I’m protestant, but I believe in intercessory prayer so I have no problem with petitioning the saints much like you would a friend
B) If you are protestant and hear someone say “I am gong to pray to Mary because I want (insert request here)” it sounds like you are asking Mary to grant a favor and skipping Jesus all together. I’m not saying that is what you are asking, it is just how it comes off to us.
C) I think the thread has missed an important thing, sometimes we don’t really know that is best for us, God does and petitioning saints like it was a high school prom vote wont make a bit of difference if you are asking for something that is outside his will. For exsample an amorous teen praying that he parents are gone this weekend do he can seduce his girlfriend is not a prayer that I believe God would honor. We get caught up in our own request so much (even those with the best of intentions) that I think we over-state our influence.
In my church there are martyrs that we believe teach us how to live godly lives, my favorite is Dirk Willems, let me share a bit bout him;
I got a kick out of the beer part (we traditionally don’t drink much if any alcohol). This being said a good way for us Protestants to relate might be to take a figure you admire (for me Dirk Willems) and try to live up to his example and pray for the same strength that he showed, even though it meant his death.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Easton
Why? Because not all prayer is equally efficacious. As Scripture says, “the prayer of a righteous man [or woman] has great power in its effects” (James 5:16), and there are ain’t no man or woman more righteous than Mary and the saints in heaven with Jesus.
Lina:
My statement that there are none more righteous than the saints in heaven with Jesus is based on the statement in Hebrews 12:23 that the spirits of just men in heaven with Jesus have been made perfect.
Originally Posted by Todd Easton
Why? Because not all prayer is equally efficacious. As Scripture says, “the prayer of a righteous man [or woman] has great power in its effects” (James 5:16), and there are ain’t no man or woman more righteous than Mary and the saints in heaven with Jesus.
I think you missed my point… James 5:14-18, a portion of which I originally quoted, deals with the prayers of some folks being more efficacious than the prayers of others. When a Christian becomes gravely sick, what is he supposed to do? Does the Bible say, “Well, just pray to Jesus”? No. The Bible says, "Ask for the presbyters (priests) of the Church and they are to pray over (and anoint) the sick person. Their prayer uttered in faith will restore the person to health and his sins will be forgiven because the prayer of the presbyters (priests) of the Church, like the prayer of Elijah, has great power in its effect.
My statement that there are none more righteous than the saints in heaven with Jesus is based on the statement in Hebrews 12:23 that the spirits of just men in heaven with Jesus have been made perfect.
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DustinsDad
Guest
Awesome stuff!
That you think you can correct St. Jerome on the Scriptures is kind of funny, if the premise weren’t so deadly serious.
Exactly, and Mary’s fiat allowed Jesus to come into the world.
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:38)
Jesus is the Savior of the world - Amen to that! You owe your salvation to Him for His sacrifice on the cross that paid the debt for your sins.
You also owe a big thank you to the folks He used and is using to bring Him to you. For example, consider the following:
Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife? (1 Cor.7:16)
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22)
Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)
I’m sure you don’t make Paul a heretic and a liar now!
You see, Jesus is our Savior, but Jesus doesn’t come to us alone. He uses human instruments all the time and all around us. The awesome thing about Mary, is that Mary “fiat”, her yes to God, plays a role in everyone’s Salvation, because by her “yes”, the Son of God took on flesh and was able to offer Himself up as payment for the debt of the sin mankind.
Heck, if we can by the grace of God cause the scales to fall off of your eyes, you may have to thank the folks on these forums for saving you before it’s all said and done.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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Mickey
Guest
And some of us sink faster than others.
Jesus did not have an earthly father. He received His flesh from one parent, His mother Mary. Mary gave birth to Jesus, nursed Him, raised Him to adulthood, watched His suffering and crucifixion, and witnessed His resurrection and ascension. No one else in the Bible was involved in every aspect of His life from birth to ascension. Mary was Jesus’ mother–and so she is our mother too. As our heavenly mother, she deserves honor and respect.
Do you envision Jesus being irrate because someone asks His mother to pray for a loved one or themselves? Really now, do you?
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wcknight
Guest
IF gladtobe is a Catholic, his arguments has the flavor of a protestant-wanna-be.
First off the Church does NOT make it a habit of canonizing saints who happen to write heresy into their teachings. Second off the Catholic Church NEVER EVER declares a new doctrine that in ANY way ever contradicts scriptures.
The Church has hundreds if not thousands of scriptural scholars who sole role in life is to guide the teachings of the Chruch so it does not ever stray. Now this is a well known fact that has been the case for hundreds of years.
These are facts which EVERY Catholic would or should know.
IF our scripture only, fundalmentalist, sympathsizer were aware of this, he would not be spouting such anti-Catholic ravings.
Mary is NOT co-savior as he mistakenly says, Co-Redemptorix and Co-Mediatrix does NOT imply that and for him to continue misrepresenting the Chruch’s teachings in this manner is scandalous.
To accept scriptures only and reject traditions and Chruch teachings smacks of evangelical fundamentalism. When one takes a personal literal interpreatation of scriptures and ignores Church doctrine and rejects the Churchs interpretation of scriptures, you are reject Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus left authority with St. Peter and His successor, and He sent the Hold Spirit to guide His Church. When we go it alone as some many protestant denomination do, you end up with literally thousands of separte and some time contradictory interpretations.
Gladtobe, IF you are Catholic as you claim, you need to find out what the Church’s official teachings on these doctrines are and NOT rely on your own interpretation of scriptures. It’s when one goes it alone that, heresys come about.
You can bet your bottom dollar that no one who teaches heresy will ever be declared a saint. I regard statements made by St. Ireneaus and St. Jerome far more authoritative than anyone and anything mentioned here on these boards.
I pray that Christ leads you back to His Church’s teachings.
wc
First off the Church does NOT make it a habit of canonizing saints who happen to write heresy into their teachings. Second off the Catholic Church NEVER EVER declares a new doctrine that in ANY way ever contradicts scriptures.
The Church has hundreds if not thousands of scriptural scholars who sole role in life is to guide the teachings of the Chruch so it does not ever stray. Now this is a well known fact that has been the case for hundreds of years.
These are facts which EVERY Catholic would or should know.
IF our scripture only, fundalmentalist, sympathsizer were aware of this, he would not be spouting such anti-Catholic ravings.
Mary is NOT co-savior as he mistakenly says, Co-Redemptorix and Co-Mediatrix does NOT imply that and for him to continue misrepresenting the Chruch’s teachings in this manner is scandalous.
To accept scriptures only and reject traditions and Chruch teachings smacks of evangelical fundamentalism. When one takes a personal literal interpreatation of scriptures and ignores Church doctrine and rejects the Churchs interpretation of scriptures, you are reject Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus left authority with St. Peter and His successor, and He sent the Hold Spirit to guide His Church. When we go it alone as some many protestant denomination do, you end up with literally thousands of separte and some time contradictory interpretations.
Gladtobe, IF you are Catholic as you claim, you need to find out what the Church’s official teachings on these doctrines are and NOT rely on your own interpretation of scriptures. It’s when one goes it alone that, heresys come about.
You can bet your bottom dollar that no one who teaches heresy will ever be declared a saint. I regard statements made by St. Ireneaus and St. Jerome far more authoritative than anyone and anything mentioned here on these boards.
I pray that Christ leads you back to His Church’s teachings.
wc
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AuntMartha
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By that logic, what purpose is there in asking your friends or fellow congregants to pray, or for that matter, what purpose is there in praying at all?
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wcknight
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"defending weak arguments of the Church…:bigyikes: .??? " :banghead:
Gladetobe… obviously you pay very little credibility or respect to Church teachings… you have the makings of a very fine Catholic bashing evangelical fundamentalist. :nope:
May God have mercy on your soul !
Gladetobe… obviously you pay very little credibility or respect to Church teachings… you have the makings of a very fine Catholic bashing evangelical fundamentalist. :nope:
May God have mercy on your soul !
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gladtobe
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To Ann Cheryl
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I'm sorry that I did not answer your post right off. I had to answer all the others who show hatred towards me for my sole devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ and not Mary as well. I would disagree with you that all Protestants are ignorant, just because they do not agree with everything you believe. There have been and are many learned men.
You claim there is nothing wrong with praying to departed spirits, especially Mary, as an intercessor. As I stated earlier, the scriptures do state where God does not want us to seek out the spirits of the dead in any form. This command is found in the old testament. You claim Mary is now an intercessor, simply because she told Jesus when on earth that the guests at the wedding were out of wine. Don't you think Jesus knew this ahead of time, being God?
Besides this is hardly a very good example of people seeking out Mary to receive special graces from Jesus. There simply is no statement in all of the New Testament that Mary is to be prayed to or is the Christian's intercessor between the Christian and God. And why is this? Simply because we can come DIRECTLY to Christ ourselves, at any time in prayer and he will hear our prayer. We don't need an intercessor to get our spiritual requests to him. Jesus is our advocate. I John 1:2.
You assume that because a Catholic trust solely in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation and prayer life they are not Catholic. But this is not the case. Praying to Mary is an option that Catholics can choose. It is true, that in our modern times Marian devotion has been almost on par to that of Christ and in some countries has superseded Christ. Especially in Spain and Mexico. I just choose to worship, honor and pray to the one who died and rose for me. And that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
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jsussvsus
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Hi All
This is just my opinion but I think that it is wrong to pray TO anyone other than Christ. Asking someone to pray for you is different than praying TO someone. If you hold your hands together and bow your head and then address anyone, then you are praying TO them. My question is why do Catholics bow there heads when praying to Mary? If I’m not mistaken there are prayers that are offered up to Mary. If this is the case, then I think that this is praying TO Mary and is putting things before God.
Thanks
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Mickey
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Hi gladtobe!
Do you adhere to the doctrines of The Immaculate conception and The Assumption/Dormition of Mary?
Do you adhere to the doctrines of The Immaculate conception and The Assumption/Dormition of Mary?
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Mickey
Guest
You should research the true meaning of the term “praying to”.
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gladtobe
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Shlemele
Intercessory prayer should only be directly prayed to Christ. That is my point. Jesus specifically said, "Come unto me, all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your souls rest." We are to pray directly to Jesus. We don't need a "go between" for him to know what we desire in prayer.
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Curious
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Hey Gladtobe
If you adhere to that so strictly, than you should probably never ever again ask anyone else to pray for you. It’s entirely unncessary as nobody needs any intercessor and we are to pray directly to Jesus. We don’t need a go between…not your neighbor, not Brother Bob, not Pastor Pete, no one. So…in order to avoid hypocrisy, you should never again ask anyone to pray for you.
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gladtobe
Guest
Mickey
Do you adhere to the doctrines of The Immaculate conception and The Assumption/Dormition of Mary?
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Here are your questions:
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No, I do not believe Mary was born without a sinful nature. For that would mean her Father also was and her grandfather and so on. But the bible says clearly that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory God. Paul was speaking of all men and that includes Mary. Many of the Fathers believed Mary was born sinless, but many didn't. I choose to stand with the scriptures on this issue, because the scriptures speak very clearly on this.
As for the bodily assumption of Mary, there is no scripture evidence Mary was indeed taken to heaven and this would have to be a prophetic statement anyway. For the scriptures were recorded while she was still living. But I personally believe she was taken to heaven at her death by Jesus personally. If you consider Enoch and Elijah. They were taken by God to heaven. Mary was after all, Jesus' dear mother. Sons who love their mother, as Jesus did, would hardly allow her to rot. That's just my feel for it all. But is she portrayed in Rev 12:1. No, because the three early church fathers attributed the "woman" of Rev 12:1 to the church and not to Mary. Although many Catholic authors try to make the woman of Rev 12 mean this. The early church never taught or believed this interpretation.
Catholics TODAY are expected to believe unwaveringly in both the immaculate conception and the bodily assumption of Mary because two previous Popes declared the doctrine to be so since 1854 and afterwards. But these two doctrines were not always believed by the church as a whole in the early centuries. These are just facts, whether one will accept them or not, lies with their own stubbornness.
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Church_Militant
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I think it would do you a world of good if you were honest or at least knowlegeable about what you try to allege. The book you refer to is probably “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs”, which is anything but an accurate account of the lives of martyrs and anything but honest. He alleges deaths post reformation and fails to honestly examine the many many more Catholics who were butchered by Protestants during that era. Ever hear of Thomas More? I thought not. Or any of the thousands of others in England and Ireland that paid in blood for being Catholics. Ever hear of the Know Nothings? I thought as much…right here in our own country they murdered Catholics and burned churches and convents and got away with it because no one “knows nothing”. You wanna get into a mud slinging contest, you will come out as dirty as any Catholic will I assure you of that.
NONE of it was right, but don’t EVEN come in here trying to dump that load of anti-Catholic trash in our laps. :irish1:
As for the root of “the papal church”, (a perorative name at best), you are clearly ignorant of both the Biblical base as well as Christian history all the way back to the early church.
St. John was the last apostle to die right? (didn’t know that did you…) Two of his best friends and disciples were Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch. (Now THESE are martyrs!)
Polycarp told his executioners that he had been a Christian for 86 years and wouldn’t trade this temporary fire for an eternal one by denying his faith. This means that he was baptized as a baby since he was 86 years old when he was burned alive as he sang hymns.
Ignatius was the bishop of the church in Antioch. (Remember them? The place where we were first called “Christians” in Acts 11:26. Note that the NT doesn’t say that they called themselves that but they “were called” Christians by others). Ignatius (a real martyr who was thrown to wild animals in Rome for refusing to deny the faith) wrote great letters to the churches as he was on his way to die and one was to the church at Smyrna, in which he said this,:
"Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." (emphasis mine)
Now… St. John wrote Revelations in about 99 and died not long after of natural causes and this was written in about 110. Who do you think knew what was going on in the church at that time? here’s the link
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume01/ignatius06.cfm
You don’t know what you’re talking about and you have been fed biased info from anti-Catholic sources.
As for this initial question: It’s easy to see what Mary’s message is and always has been, just as it was to the servants in John 2 “Do whatever He tells you” If you understood her position as mother of the messiah, who is a Davidic king of Israel and understood what the Hebrew title "Giberah " means and what her function was then you would have a lot less to say about the intercession of the Blessed Virgin for her Son’s church.
Have a good look at the “great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 :1. What are they doing, sitting on their hands? Especially since they are witnessing our race for Our Lord… People today do not just sit there and they will certainly do what they can to encourage their teams winning. Since Romans 8 says that nothing seprates us from the love of God in Christ Jesus then where does it say that the love of God that we have in Christ Jesus is separated from us at death? How silly you are not to recogize such a simple mystical aspect of true Christianity.
Pax vobiscum,
J
jimmy
Guest
You have this false idea that praying to Mary and the saints is simply a go between. That is not the case. When we pray to Mary, or anyone in heaven, we are praying to Christ and God ultimately. Each prayer, whether it is addressed to God or to Mary or toSt. Francis, is a prayer directly to God. All prayers are done in respect to God. They are done to honor God.
Further, the bible is very emphatic on its support of intercessory prayer. James says, “The prayers of a just man availeth us much.” What person is more just than he who has been sanctified and cleansed by God? You will not find one. Paul is pretty clear when he mentions that he has been offering “prayers and suplications” for the people he is writing to. There are no prayers greater than those of the saints.
Further, the Church has always had prayers to the saints. Look at this 3rd century prayer to Mary.
Further, the bible is very emphatic on its support of intercessory prayer. James says, “The prayers of a just man availeth us much.” What person is more just than he who has been sanctified and cleansed by God? You will not find one. Paul is pretty clear when he mentions that he has been offering “prayers and suplications” for the people he is writing to. There are no prayers greater than those of the saints.
Further, the Church has always had prayers to the saints. Look at this 3rd century prayer to Mary.
Epiphanius writes about the heresy of denying Mary honor around 400AD.
How about Augustine.
Do you see?
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scylla
Guest
It seems as if you ignored, or maybe that there was so much posted you didn’t get a chance to read, some of the responses here regarding this.
As Catholics we believe people who have passed on are more alive than we are.
It seems if you have a belief in soul sleep, I think this a relatively new belief that I think started with the relatively recently, last 400 years or so.
mb-soft.com/believe/txw/soulslee.htm
Just search soul sleep to really get a background on it.
Now it seems you have a problem believing people are alive in Jesus Christ. We can see in the transfiguration that God has to power to allow us to live after death with consiousness. Now is God the God of the living or the dead? I believe He is God of the living and all loving.
Scripture says we should pray for each other, there is a commonly held idea that of God in a master slave sort of relationship. This demands we look only to God and not to each other. This makes God our master and us his servants.
The Catholic image of God is more Father , Children, where we are supposed to love one another and our love and care for one another glorifies God. I am supposed to pray for, love and be charitable to everyone as we all are in this together. This doesn’t detract from God’s glory but rather rejoices in His creation.
Would you get insulted if I said you had a good mother?
My kids are getting impatient, I will post more later,
Scylla
As Catholics we believe people who have passed on are more alive than we are.
It seems if you have a belief in soul sleep, I think this a relatively new belief that I think started with the relatively recently, last 400 years or so.
mb-soft.com/believe/txw/soulslee.htm
Just search soul sleep to really get a background on it.
Now it seems you have a problem believing people are alive in Jesus Christ. We can see in the transfiguration that God has to power to allow us to live after death with consiousness. Now is God the God of the living or the dead? I believe He is God of the living and all loving.
Scripture says we should pray for each other, there is a commonly held idea that of God in a master slave sort of relationship. This demands we look only to God and not to each other. This makes God our master and us his servants.
The Catholic image of God is more Father , Children, where we are supposed to love one another and our love and care for one another glorifies God. I am supposed to pray for, love and be charitable to everyone as we all are in this together. This doesn’t detract from God’s glory but rather rejoices in His creation.
Would you get insulted if I said you had a good mother?
My kids are getting impatient, I will post more later,
Scylla
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jimmy
Guest
Do you mean the vitriole that Fox put out? That book is the worst book ever written.
You should get some first hand sources on the Catholic Church. Read the Church Fathers. DId you see those quotes I gave above, there are plenty more that say the same thing if you want to see.
Here is a link that gives some of the Church Fathers that support intercessory prayer. These are ones that only refer to Mary. There are also many, which are not on this link, that refer to saints in general.
cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary_dev.htm
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