Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

[Lina]

itsjustdave1988:

Ask the question differently… If he DIDN’T want us to humbly request that other Christian’s pray for us, then why did he not prohibit it? Paul tells us that we are to pray for one another. Why are heavenly Christians not part of the same Vine of Christ in your understanding?

Didn’t the Psalmist give us a Scriptural example of invoking the heavenly angels and saints directly in prayer? (Ps. 103:20–21). In Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” EeeeeeK! We’re praying to angels and all his hosts!!! How unScriptural is our Scripture!!

How does all creation praising God mean we are to pray TO that which has been created instead of the Creator?

 

[Lina]

Mickey:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

John 21:25

Unless the LORD GOD reveals something to me other than what is written, I am confident in what is written. Jesus did say to ask the Father anything according to His will and in His name. I don’t know of scripture that directs us to ask anyone else.

 

[Lina]

RyanL:

Actually, I read in my bible that one of the last things Christ did for us was to give us a new mother - His mother, in fact. It seems as though Christ, during the most important moment in all human history, saw fit to direct our attention to His mother. Since Christ could not die without giving His mother to us, I would recommend paying a little more attention to her. You see, we are brothers and sisters of Christ, and God is likewise our Father. If we share a Father, and Christ is our brother, doesn’t it make sense that Mary is *our *mother as well?!? And unless you are insisting that we simply cannot ask our parents to pray for us (as that would displease God), I see no reason why you should have a problem with this…

May the Lord Jesus forgive any disrespect shown to the Blessed Mother,
RyanL

“But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

 

[DustinsDad]

Hello bjcros87, welcome back!

Lina:

The Sacred Scripture does say there is only one mediator.

You’re only reading the last part of that passage. If you read the liines leading up to it, you will see that Christians interceeding for Christians is part of the “formula” if you will. We are all a part of the body of Christ, and he allows us to participate in His intercession:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (1 Tim 2:1-6)

So not only is Christian intercession allowed, it is actually urged and commanded by the Word of God. Christ’s mediation between God and man doesn’t nullify this.

And of course, those in heaven are still bound by the Word of God, so they do just what He commands and requests. Revelation makes it quite clear that those in heaven do hear our prayers and offer them up to the Lord:

(Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

(Rev 8:3-4) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
And since our prayers are mental things, one has to admit that the Lord allows those in heaven to “hear” our prayers in some way. Thus we see that it is God’s will. The Lord allows those in heaven to intercede, letting our prayers pass from us, to them, to Him.

DustinsDad

 

[Mickey]

Lina:

How does all creation praising God mean we are to pray TO that which has been created instead of the Creator?

Hi Lina!

This has been addressed numerous times.

Non-Catholics are without the Eucharist (true worship of God), so they define ‘prayer’ not as a conversation, but as a form of worship. Which is why there’s so much confusion among protestants about this.

We do not worship Mary: a Mass always consists of worship of Christ. But conversations (‘prayer’) with Mary enable us to become closer to Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Lina:

Unless the LORD GOD reveals something to me other than what is written, I am confident in what is written. Jesus did say to ask the Father anything according to His will and in His name. I don’t know of scripture that directs us to ask anyone else.

Have you ever heard of Sacred Tradition?

 

[Mickey]

“But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

And what does that mean to you?

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

I would disagree with you that all Protestants are ignorant, just because they do not agree with everything you believe.

I never said that. What I did say was your arguments are rehashes of anti-catholic propaganda.

You claim Mary is now an intercessor, simply because she told Jesus when on earth that the guests at the wedding were out of wine. Don’t you think Jesus knew this ahead of time, being God?

I did not say this what I said was that Mary has the ear of her son and as such has much influence. My children always came to me if they wanted something. As Mary’s child I go to her to present my case. He knew everything ahead of time. So your point is what. He knew He would tell His mother “It is not my time” So why would He do that? Hmmm to show us how importand is Mothers influence is.

You claim there is nothing wrong with praying to departed spirits, especially Mary, as an intercessor. As I stated earlier, the scriptures do state where God does not want us to seek out the spirits of the dead in any form. This command is found in the old testament

This is what you said

[There is no doubt that Mary is very alive in heaven. But so is Abraham, Daniel and King David. Does this mean we should also pray to them for divine assistance? Or maybe we should pray to John the Baptist? After all, Jesus said there is none greater in heaven then John the Baptist/QUOTE]

Also I might add this is a weak argument used by Catholic apologists, because the Catholic lay people do not all pray to different departed saints anyway in heaven. They direct there prayers and devotion solely to Mary ALONE to receive graces from either her or from her Son. So Catholics don’t really believe in prayers to the REST OF the communion of saints at all.

How would know this. In my personnel prayer I do pray to other saints more than I do Mary. Most Catholics I know have a favorite Saint other than Mary. My mom’s was St. Jude. My father’s St. Anthony. My husband’s is St. Joseph. I could list many more from my family. As for me, I switch off a lot depending on my needs. Kateri and Father Kolbe are favorites but not the only ones. If you really were a Catholic, you would know you are encouraged to invoke your saint Namesake. Which bring the question I have for you now is why are you trying to deceive us that you have ever been a Catholic. Your post clearly shows you as never having been one. You have been asked not only by me but others as to what you mean by catholic. It is a lie by deception putting catholic as your religion. It is obvious you
are not

To repeat from a previous post

By the way, your statement that Jesus wishes us to come directly to him in prayer, rather that to Mary as an intercessor is unfounded. You may believe it but Jesus never said it.

You thought you had us by asking if we would pray to anyone else (dead give away that you are not a Catholic). All Saints are in a better position than people you would ask on earth to pray for you to intercede with Jesus for us.

 

[wcknight]

gladtobe:

Mickey

Here are your questions:

Do you adhere to the doctrines of The Immaculate conception and The Assumption/Dormition of Mary?

No, I do not believe Mary was born without a sinful nature. For that would mean her Father also was and her grandfather and so on. But the bible says clearly that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory God. Paul was speaking of all men and that includes Mary. Many of the Fathers believed Mary was born sinless, but many didn’t. I choose to stand with the scriptures on this issue, because the scriptures speak very clearly on this.

As for the bodily assumption of Mary, there is no scripture evidence Mary was indeed taken to heaven and this would have to be a prophetic statement anyway. For the scriptures were recorded while she was still living. But I personally believe she was taken to heaven at her death by Jesus personally. If you consider Enoch and Elijah. They were taken by God to heaven. Mary was after all, Jesus’ dear mother. Sons who love their mother, as Jesus did, would hardly allow her to rot. That’s just my feel for it all. But is she portrayed in Rev 12:1. No, because the three early church fathers attributed the “woman” of Rev 12:1 to the church and not to Mary. Although many Catholic authors try to make the woman of Rev 12 mean this. The early church never taught or believed this interpretation.

Catholics TODAY are expected to believe unwaveringly in both the immaculate conception and the bodily assumption of Mary because two previous Popes declared the doctrine to be so since 1854 and afterwards. But these two doctrines were not always believed by the church as a whole in the early centuries. These are just facts, whether one will accept them or not, lies with their own stubbornness.

Quite obviously you do NOT believe Catholic doctrine. To call yourself Catholic is a sham… Catholic tradition back to the time of Mary’s death, NOT the 1850’s, recount Mary’s Assumption (See Fr. Ambrose’s accounts in another thread on thesee boards). The accounts of Mary’s assumtion is at least 1900 years old, not a recent development, nor simply some Popes proclamation.

IF you want to follow a Protestant philosophy, that’s fine. Knock yourself out. But please don’t try to come here and convince us that your anti-Catholic rhetoric are acceptable in any way to real Catholics.

For you to belittle Catholic teachings as weak or unscriptual, that’s pretty serious.

 

[Shlemele]

AuntMartha:

By that logic, what purpose is there in asking your friends or fellow congregants to pray, or for that matter, what purpose is there in praying at all?

Let me get this straight, are you saying that if you ask for something outside Gods will but ask the right saint it may happen?

I am a firm believer that we don’t always know what is best for us, and if we ask for something outside his plan for us I don’t think he will give it to us. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe everything is black and white here, there are a lot of grey things that clearly don’t fall outside the grace of God. Praying to find ones car keys in time to make it to a job interview is an example of a grey area, asking for God to kill your old boss is not .

As far the reason to ask your friends to pray for you, I believe besides turning up the volume of the prayer (best analogy I can come up with at the moment) it shares the burden with others. Sometimes we need others to know what is gong on in our lives and to know that we need their support and Gods to get through it.

 

[Church_Militant]

gladtobe:

Church Militant

                   First of all, my loved ones who trusted in Christ for eternal life are not in their gravesides. Their decayed bodies are. Their spirits have gone to be with the Lord. Secondly, I do have a fair understanding of the "body of Christ" whether true believers in Christ be all over the earth or their spirits reside in paradise. Where we disagree is to WHOM we should direct our prayers to while on earth. To Christ directly or to Mary or some acknowledged saint the church has deemed worthy? I choose Christ because he said that I can come to him for ANY NEED. He is my advocate, the great shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Life, my Lord and my Savior. Jesus is all I need.

Which is fine if you choose to accept the Sola Scriptura doctrine that only came into existence in 1517. Since the ECF tell us that the inetercession of saints has been with us since their time I have to wonder why one would reject something that they no doubt learned from the apostles themselves? Who would know if they don’t? Since the very graves of the early church martyrs have prayers on them to the departed saints, and these are the guys who paid their all for the faith…what’s the problem then? Other than you refuse to accept the historical sources of Christian teaching that predate all that you’ve been taught…
Pax tecum,

 

[Ignatius]

AuntMartha:

gladtobe is not a Catholic. His posts have Protestant written all over them. Even in his profile he spells Catholic with a small “c”.

Dollars to donuts he’s Anglican.

 

[mercygate]

Ignatius:

Dollars to donuts he’s Anglican.

God forgive ya, Ignatius! No decent Anglican believes the kind of stuff gladtobe comes up with here!

 

[jimmy]

Lina:

The Sacred Scripture does say there is only one mediator.

Yes, there is one mediator. The Holy Spirit and all Grace proceed through and from Christ to the world. Christ died on the cross to save us from death. All prayers are recieved by God through Christ.

All the above is true. That does not mean that we can’t pray to a saint and ask them to pray for us. If you ask your brother or sister to pray for you, they are being a mediator in a sense. We are all mediators in a sense for eachother. Paul continually mentions himself praying for those he is writing to. Paul was a mediator in a sense.

 

[jimmy]

Shlemele:

Let me get this straight, are you saying that if you ask for something outside Gods will but ask the right saint it may happen?

Nothing happens outside Gods will. What is asked of the saints is granted ultimately by God. It is God that gives it. The saints pray to God for us.

I am a firm believer that we don’t always know what is best for us, and if we ask for something outside his plan for us I don’t think he will give it to us. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe everything is black and white here, there are a lot of grey things that clearly don’t fall outside the grace of God. Praying to find ones car keys in time to make it to a job interview is an example of a grey area, asking for God to kill your old boss is not .

I agree with this. God will only give us what is part of his plan.

As far the reason to ask your friends to pray for you, I believe besides turning up the volume of the prayer (best analogy I can come up with at the moment) it shares the burden with others. Sometimes we need others to know what is gong on in our lives and to know that we need their support and Gods to get through it.

Offering prayers and suplications for the rest of The Body of Christ unites us all as one body. There are two parts to the Church, The Church Militant and The Church Triumphant. Those who are still on earth struggling and fighting sin and those who are already in heaven. We are all one body and we are in union. We ask those in heaven to pray for us, and they will. We pray for those who have died that they might reach heaven. It is intercommunion between both parts of the body. Both pray for eachother. Same with us on earth, we pray for the other people who are still here on earth that they will recieve grace and love God and pursue Him.

 

[gladtobe]

Most of the hate filled posts I have received are misconceived. Because I quote the authority of what is already stated in scripture I am accused of being a post reformation “sola scriptura” advocate. That is far from the truth. What is generally misunderstood, is that the scriptures(preferably the New Testament) do carry AUTHORITY to them. To alter their clear meaning is to teach something that was never originally taught.

                             For example, take John 1:1, it states that the Word was in the beginning  and was with God and the Word was God. Yet if I were to take it's plain meaning and tell you the Word was not God, but a god, I would be stating something the original author of John's gospel never meant.

                             This is my case in point. If the New Testament clearly tells us that Jesus is the Savior of the world, then there is none other, that is Savior of the world, even if St Jerome claims Mary is also Savior of the world.. If the scriptures say that Jesus wishes all believers in him to come UNTO ME, then he is giving a divine command and desire. No where in scripture does it state that Christians are to seek departed spirits in heaven, while praying. In fact much of Hebrews deals with the High priestly role of Jesus in heaven pleading before the father on our behalf. Only Jesus is portrayed as our present day high priest, advocate and mediator between God and mankind. The bible is expicitly clear on this. 

                               To seek any other created being, no matter how noble their former life on earth was is to not FULLY depend on the role Christ plays in the believer's life, for salvation, forgiveness, strength, and  needs in prayer. 

                                Of course all our departed loved ones, including the noble saints are in heaven praying for us AS A WHOLE. Just as we pray for the church preceding the readings, the saints also pray for the body of Christ in heaven That is without question. But none are there to replace the mediator role of Christ in regards to granting forgiveness, life and being with you at the final hours of your life. Guardian angels are appointed to each of us to guide us in fullfilling God's will and sometimes prevent unforseen events that shouldn't happen in our lives. But the saints reside IN HEAVEN or paradise and do not communicate with the living. That is spiritualism, which is forbidden by God.

                                  The renowned Polycarp before his death of being burned alive was asked to recant of his faith and be spared. Notice closely, what he said. He said, ' All my life I have served Jesus Christ and I KNOW NONE OTHER. How can I desert him now?" 

                                    If Marian devotion would have been as popular as it is today, then why didn't Polycarp not also include Mary in his final words? Why didn't he also say that he knew Mary as his Advocate, his Queen and my life? After all, he lived some 86 yrs and probably knew the last apostle. But Polycarp only says that he trusted ONLY in Christ. Should Polycarp be called a non Catholic as well, like me, because I only trust in the living Son of God for my all?  You should seriusly consider what I'm saying here, for if Christ is not your all, then you are only praying and devoted to him partially and cannot say with Polycarp, only Christ have I known my whole life.

                                        In conclusion, it is not that I'm advocating "sola sciptura" or that we can only rely on scripture alone for everything, but rather we have no right to go beyond what scripture plainly states ALREADY and change it's meaning from it's original intent and meaning. I hope I have made my stand for Jesus Christ a little clearer.

 

[wcknight]

hate filled posts???

Not hardly, we merely point out to you that your beliefs do NOT coincide with those of the Catholic Church. You are entitled to those beliefs but they are indeed in error, and contrary to Church techings.

 

[RyanL]

gladtobe,

I posted this fairly early on, but received no satisfactory reply. I am using only what is found in scriptures. Please tell me where you disagree.

   		 		 		We are all "One Body" in Christ. Period. That doesn't change when we die - in fact, we become even more a part of Christ's Body, as we are perfected in righteousness. To say to a part of the body, "I don't need you," is a sin, and St. Paul tells us as much.

Like it or not, when you say “I don’t need the Saints”, you are saying that you don’t need that part of the Body of Christ.

God Bless
RyanL

 

[AuntMartha]

gladtobe:

Most of the hate filled posts I have received are misconceived.

wcknight:

hate filled posts???

Not hardly, we merely point out to you that your beliefs do NOT coincide with those of the Catholic Church. You are entitled to those beliefs but they are indeed in error, and contrary to Church techings.

Really - what hate-filled posts? I haven’t seen any. I agree with what wcknight said.

It’s so interesting nowadays, when people who hold one position call the response of those who disagree with them “hate speech”. It is the weapon of the wrong. (I see that with “gay” activists all the time. If you don’t think “gayness” as the best thing since sliced bread and take a moral stance against it, you are committing “hate speech”.)

 

[TobyLue]

Posted by jimmy

There are two parts to the Church, The Church Militant and The Church Triumphant. Those who are still on earth struggling and fighting sin and those who are already in heaven.

Just a slight correction my friend. There are three not two.

The Church Militant are those of us still here on earth. The Church Triumphant is those saints in heaven and the third is The Church Suffering is those that are in purgatory. (But that should be left for another thread)

Blessings

P.S. if gladtobe is really a Catholic, I must say that he is more ignorant of the Church than those he accuses of worshiping Our Blessed Mother Mary. He confuses correction of Catholic Teachings with hate posts.

Here is some useful info I found at another site. I’ll just paste it and highlight a few things…

There are four levels of Church teaching, each with their own level of assent required of the faithful.

Level 1 Teaching is that which has been Divine Revealed in the Word of God, written or handed down, and that which has been solemnly judged as divinely revealed truths. They are divinely revealed dogmas.

The judgment is made by:

1. ex cathedra proclamations of the Roman Pontiff
2. College of Bishops gathered in council
3. infallibly proposed by the ordinary Magisterium

This level of teaching must be believed by all the Faithful with theological faith on the authority of God revealing (de fide credenda). Anyone who denies these teachings, **OR who obstinately doubts these teachings is in heresy and thereby automatically excommunicated. **

Examples of Level 1 teaching required for belief by all the Faithful include: the divinity of Christ, the articles of faith of the Creed, the various Christological dogmas, the various Marian dogmas, the doctrine of the institution of the sacraments by Christ and their efficacy with regard to grace, the doctrine of the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the eucharistic celebration, the foundation of the Church by the will of Christ, the doctrine on the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff, the doctrine on the existence of original sin, the doctrine on the immortality of the spiritual soul, the immediate recompense after death, the absence of error in the inspired sacred texts, the doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption of Mary.

**Canon 750 **

All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church and also proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, must be believed with divine and catholic faith; it is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore, all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatever which are contrary to these truths.

Canon 751Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

We must undestand that before the Canon of the Bible was complied there were many books floating around many of which were not inspired. The Church taught by what was handed down to them by the apostles. The books of the Bible HAD to agree with what was been taught or they were rejected. So nothing in scripture goes against what the Early Church taught which was handed down to them by the apostles themselves. The ECF did not make up the teaching of Mary on their own. That had to be handed down to them by the Apostles. The Apostles knew better than those who 1500 years later, doing their own self interpretation, took it upon themselves to say that the Catholic Church is wrong regarding the teachings on Mary and in its interpretation of scripture. That is telling God that they know better than the Church He founded. What nerve!!!