Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

[Axion]

gladtobe:

Most of the hate filled posts I have received are misconceived.

The posts are not “hate-filled”. They are telling you that you cannot claim to be a “catholic” while denying the basic tenets of Catholicism. You cannot make up your own faith. If you deny Catholicism, you are not a catholic.

What is generally misunderstood, is that the scriptures… do carry AUTHORITY to them. To alter their clear meaning is to teach something that was never originally taught.

No. The scriptures do carry authority. But apart from the living testimony and Apostolic Witness of the Church, they swiftly become a source of confusion and dissension - as each person picks his own verses and makes his own individual doctrines from them. This is witnessed by the 30,000 different sola-scriptura denominations, all teaching differently. The people who altered the clear Apostolic teachings that had always been taught for 1500 years were the sola-scriptura Protestants.

If the New Testament clearly tells us that Jesus is the Savior of the world, then there is none other, that is Savior of the world, even if St Jerome claims Mary is also Savior of the world.

This is the “False Contradiction” argument of modern fundamentalist Protestants. It is a nonsense. Jesus is the one Saviour and Redeemer, but others, Abraham, David, particularly Mary, play important and vital roles in the history of redemption.

If the scriptures say that Jesus wishes all believers in him to come UNTO ME, then he is giving a divine command and desire. No where in scripture does it state that Christians are to seek departed spirits in heaven, while praying… Only Jesus is portrayed as our present day high priest, advocate and mediator between God and mankind. The bible is expicitly clear on this.

No. Certain Protestant propagandists are explicitly clear on this, based on their misinterpretation of verses taken completely out of context.

What scripture tells us is that the members of the body of Christ cannot be divided and all share each others joys and sorrows. And that intercession is useful and pleasing to God. And the Church throughout the ages has taught this. Only in 1500 did certain central European philosophers come out with new doctrines that tried to break up the body of Christ.

To seek any other created being, no matter how noble their former life on earth was is to not FULLY depend on the role Christ plays in the believer’s life, for salvation, forgiveness, strength, and needs in prayer.

False Contradiction. So to ask fellow Christians to pray for you must also be to “not FULLY depend on the role of Christ”??? What nonsense.

Polycarp before his death of being burned alive was asked to recant of his faith and be spared. Notice closely, what he said. He said, ’ All my life I have served Jesus Christ and I KNOW NONE OTHER. How can I desert him now?" If Marian devotion would have been as popular as it is today, then why didn’t Polycarp not also include Mary in his final words?

This is such a silly argument. You are grievously misusing the faithful Christian Father’s words. Polycarp was referring to PAGAN GODS! He would not serve PAGAN GODS - which was why he was martyred! IF “I know none other” means he doesn’t know Mary, as you try to superimpose on the statement, it just as well means that he doesn’t know the Father, the Holy Spirit, or His fellow Christians - also not mentioned!

Should Polycarp be called a non Catholic as well, like me, because I only trust in the living Son of God for my all?

No. Because Polycarp neither insulted the Church, like you have done, nor did He deny the teaching of the Church. And Polycarp had no bible to refer to. That would not be compiled for hundreds of years. He clung and held to the teaching of the Church.

In conclusion, it is not that I’m advocating “sola sciptura” or that we can only rely on scripture alone for everything, but rather we have no right to go beyond what scripture plainly states ALREADY and change it’s meaning from it’s original intent and meaning. I hope I have made my stand for Jesus Christ a little clearer.

Jesus left his teaching authority to the Church, not to any book. This is what you seem not to have taken in. The bible didn’t exist as such until 382 AD, so it can hardly have given birth to the Church that made it. The Church teaches the gospel handed down to it, using both Scripture and Apostolic tradition - which teaches, among other things, the **correct ** understanding of scripture. I’m sorry but I do not accept for one second the notion that you (or your protestant fundamentalist ammanuesis) has suddenly gained some better idea of the “original intent and meaning”, of the scriptures than the historic Church of Saints and martyrs throughout the ages.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t take this as a hate filled post, gladtobe, because it is not. All of us are only trying to correct your misunderstandings. In all reality, you are a heretic.

**Heretic–**A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Church_Militant]

So GTB… anyone who disagrees with you and offers evidence that you are in error hates you? It would seem to me that those of us who have offered good evidence for you to consider are being pretty kind and patient. So far I haven’t seen anyone flame you or even do more than state the facts for your consideration. I know I haven’t and I’ve known ya here for a few months.

Anyway…take it or leave it…the early church believed this and you don’t…so?
Pax tecum,

 

[Malachi4U]

gladtobe:

Most of the hate filled posts I have received are misconceived…

gladtobe,

I would like to apologize to if you took my post or any other here as an attack on you in some way. Sometimes we get so egar to make a point we forget that what we write may be miss-self-interpreted and taken wrong (just like so many of our Protestant brothers do in Scripture). I do not believe we write in hate, but in devotion. Sometimes we just seem to be frank and frankness can hurt. I doubt many of us are English majors or writters. We speak well but sometimes we write with imperfection. Sometime we want to make our point so much that we use poor words to do it.

Blow off the posts that make you feel bad and enjoy the one that make you feel glad. You want to see some true hate posts? See what xavior, ahimsamin72, spokenword and others have said about me! But I still love them all and love to read their spewings . We are here to exchange ideas and some do it better then others.

I apologize again and hope you no longer take posts perssonal. If you do, just step back, say a rosary or two in deep prayer to Jesus, read some Scripture on forgiveness, have a beer, and come back and post some more. OK, sometimes it takes more then a few beers! I make my own wine and beer. I guess that off topic though?

I am allways eager to share a beer with any ‘brother or sister’ if they come by, that would include you.

Gods peace,

 

[jimmy]

gladtobe:

Of course all our departed loved ones, including the noble saints are in heaven praying for us AS A WHOLE. Just as we pray for the church preceding the readings, the saints also pray for the body of Christ in heaven That is without question. But none are there to replace the mediator role of Christ in regards to granting forgiveness, life and being with you at the final hours of your life. Guardian angels are appointed to each of us to guide us in fullfilling God’s will and sometimes prevent unforseen events that shouldn’t happen in our lives. But the saints reside IN HEAVEN or paradise and do not communicate with the living. That is spiritualism, which is forbidden by God.

The renowned Polycarp before his death of being burned alive was asked to recant of his faith and be spared. Notice closely, what he said. He said, ’ All my life I have served Jesus Christ and I KNOW NONE OTHER. How can I desert him now?"

If Marian devotion would have been as popular as it is today, then why didn’t Polycarp not also include Mary in his final words? Why didn’t he also say that he knew Mary as his Advocate, his Queen and my life? After all, he lived some 86 yrs and probably knew the last apostle. But Polycarp only says that he trusted ONLY in Christ. Should Polycarp be called a non Catholic as well, like me, because I only trust in the living Son of God for my all? You should seriusly consider what I’m saying here, for if Christ is not your all, then you are only praying and devoted to him partially and cannot say with Polycarp, only Christ have I known my whole life.

In conclusion, it is not that I’m advocating “sola sciptura” or that we can only rely on scripture alone for everything, but rather we have no right to go beyond what scripture plainly states ALREADY and change it’s meaning from it’s original intent and meaning. I hope I have made my stand for Jesus Christ a little clearer.

First of all, you need to learn Catholic doctrine. Your knowledge is lacking. NO ONE has replaced Christ by honoring Mary. Have you read any of the above posts?

You make the biggest assumption with the Polycarp example. Just because he knew no one other than Christ does not affect whether there was Marian devotion. Look at this passage by Polycarp.

“[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.”
Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18(A.D. 157),in ANF,I:43

They didn’t honor the saints? I would think again if I were you.

Your last paragraph is the biggest contradiction I have seen in a long time. You claim to not support Sola Scriptura and then say we should not go beyond what is written.

 

[gladtobe]

Actually it was Karl Keating who first promoted the falsehood that the church didn’t have the New Testament until the church council in 380 A.D. determined what should go where. According to Mr Keating only the Catholic bishops were intelligent enough to recognize just what the apostles had written.

                        What Keating forgets to tell you is that the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were already in existence BEFORE the 3rd century. Almost 95% of these manuscripts were quoted from the early church fathers PRIOR to the canonization of the 3rd century. If we go by Karl Keating's argument that no one had the proper Knowledge of what was apostolic writings prior to the 3rd century, then those church fathers had no business quoting the apostles and Christ themselves.

                            Keating started this fabrication and then Stephen Ray and Dave Armstrong borrowed from this fabrication, The real truth is ALL the writings of the NT did exist before the 3rd century council convened and they were well known by the Christian world at the time. Otherwise the fathers could not have quoted from them so readily.Now that I cleared that lie up, allow me to move on.

                              Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Origin, Tertullian and Clement of Rome never prayed to Mary and wrote of her as Queen of Heaven, Savior of the world, Co re-demptrix And Co- mediatrix. You will not find any such thing ever said or written by these saintly men. Now don't you find that a bit strange, if Marian devotion in their time was the same as it is in our modern age? Comon folks, If Mary was Queen of heaven, over the apostles and all the angels! How could the early fathers such as Justin, Origin and Clement of Rome not mention one word of Mary's exaltation? Unless of course, they did not exalt Mary in such a manner as today?  What does early Catholic history say on this? 

                                 You say my knowledge is lacking? I have the same bible as you. I have the ECF collection and have read Catholic history by Ludwig Ott on Catholic doctrine. I have consulted the Catholic encyclopedia as well. Are they wrong as well? None of these sources mention praying to Mary as Savior, my Life, my Sweetness, Advocate, Queen over the Apostles, Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redeemer. As a matter of FACT, none of these fathers, even state the early church even prayed to Mary period, let alone exaulted her with such titles. 

                                    Oh, BTW, these people I mentioned were all Catholic. Are they heretics as well? I believe I have rested my case and I certainly hope Mr Keating will publically acknowledge that God DID have the New Testament available to the church BEFORE the church councils convened within and after the 3rd century.

 

[Lillith]

gladtobe:

Actually it was Karl Keating who first promoted the falsehood that the church didn’t have the New Testament until the church council in 380 A.D. determined what should go where. According to Mr Keating only the Catholic bishops were intelligent enough to recognize just what the apostles had written.

What Keating forgets to tell you is that the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were already in existence BEFORE the 3rd century. Almost 95% of these manuscripts were quoted from the early church fathers PRIOR to the canonization of the 3rd century. If we go by Karl Keating’s argument that no one had the proper Knowledge of what was apostolic writings prior to the 3rd century, then those church fathers had no business quoting the apostles and Christ themselves.

Keating started this fabrication and then Stephen Ray and Dave Armstrong borrowed from this fabrication, The real truth is ALL the writings of the NT did exist before the 3rd century council convened and they were well known by the Christian world at the time. Otherwise the fathers could not have quoted from them so readily.Now that I cleared that lie up, allow me to move on.

Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Origin, Tertullian and Clement of Rome never prayed to Mary and wrote of her as Queen of Heaven, Savior of the world, Co re-demptrix And Co- mediatrix. You will not find any such thing ever said or written by these saintly men. Now don’t you find that a bit strange, if Marian devotion in their time was the same as it is in our modern age? Comon folks, If Mary was Queen of heaven, over the apostles and all the angels! How could the early fathers such as Justin, Origin and Clement of Rome not mention one word of Mary’s exaltation? Unless of course, they did not exalt Mary in such a manner as today? What does early Catholic history say on this?

You say my knowledge is lacking? I have the same bible as you. I have the ECF collection and have read Catholic history by Ludwig Ott on Catholic doctrine. I have consulted the Catholic encyclopedia as well. Are they wrong as well? None of these sources mention praying to Mary as Savior, my Life, my Sweetness, Advocate, Queen over the Apostles, Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redeemer. As a matter of FACT, none of these fathers, even state the early church even prayed to Mary period, let alone exaulted her with such titles.

Oh, BTW, these people I mentioned were all Catholic. Are they heretics as well? I believe I have rested my case and I certainly hope Mr Keating will publically acknowledge that God DID have the New Testament available to the church BEFORE the church councils convened within and after the 3rd century.

Did you read the thread To read history is to become Catholic? It is a piece NOT written by Mr. Keating, Steven Ray or Dave Armstrong…it was posted yesterday.

 

[Lillith]

Lillith:

Did you read the thread To read history is to become Catholic? It is a piece NOT written by Mr. Keating, Steven Ray or Dave Armstrong…it was posted yesterday.

I bumped it up so that you could read it…

 

[RyanL]

GTB,

You are soooo far removed from Church history as to make me confused as to where to start…

Karl Keating would (and did) readily admit that the New Testament was written prior to the councils. Problem was - no one could agree on which books were the exact cannon. Kinda’ like today with the Tanahk/Torah and Orthodox Jews and the Modern Jews, or Catholics and Protestants for that matter. There simply was no agreement. Some wanted the Shepard of Hermas in, others wanted Revelations out, some thought the Didache was inspired, others thought Hebrews was not… it wasn’t that they weren’t written or circulated, but rather that no one could agree on which ones were the only ones to be divinely inspired. And that was just the way it was until the Church authoritatively said, “This is what we believe”. And guess what…we still believe it!

That is history. If you want to claim otherwise, bring sources.

As for prayers to Mary, you may want to investigate the Sub Tuum Praesidium. When you do, note the date and also note the date of the cannonization of the New Testament. This should give you insight to the antiquity of the teaching.

I really hope you are able to see past your conspiracy theories. There are many very beautiful things that Mary brings out in scripture, and you will see that with true Marian devotion, her “soul doth magify the Lord”!

RyanL

 

[gladtobe]

Actually Keating never said what you claim Lilith. It was Cardinal Newman. But what Newman forgot to also state, was that the belief system concerning Marian doctrine in the first three centuries was not in any form what it is in our modern times. Justin Martyr, Origin, Polycarp, and Clement never spoke of Mary with the heavenly exaltation given to her by the Catholic church today.

 

[matthew1624]

Lina:

The Sacred Scripture does say there is only one mediator.

Can you explain to me why the Holy Spirit says (through St. James) that I should go to my elders (priests) when I’m sick? Isn’t this mediation…going through the elders to receive healing?

5:14 "Is any one of you sick? He should **call the elders ** of the church to pray over him and annoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. (NIV)

Why does sacred scripture not say “He should go directly to Jesus, pay no mind to anyone else because they are useless”?

Peace…

 

[Lillith]

gladtobe:

Actually Keating never said what you claim Lilith. It was Cardinal Newman. But what Newman forgot to also state, was that the belief system concerning Marian doctrine in the first three centuries was not in any form what it is in our modern times. Justin Martyr, Origin, Polycarp, and Clement never spoke of Mary with the heavenly exaltation given to her by the Catholic church today.

(“Against the Heresies”), St. Irenaeus also calls Mary the “New Eve” and speaks of her as intimately participating in the salvation of mankind. Irenaeus writes:

“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey… having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race… Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.”

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

gladtobe:

Actually Keating never said what you claim Lilith. It was Cardinal Newman. But what Newman forgot to also state, was that the belief system concerning Marian doctrine in the first three centuries was not in any form what it is in our modern times. Justin Martyr, Origin, Polycarp, and Clement never spoke of Mary with the heavenly exaltation given to her by the Catholic church today.

What did Lilth claim? Or did you read her post to fast?

 

[Curious]

Hello Gladtobe and thanks for your reply to me, but I’m still a bit confused. I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m trying to understand what you’re saying.

[Of course we can ask others in our church to pray FOR us. But to WHOM are they to praying TO? Mary or Jesus? They would all be praying directly to Jesus. Now you reason, well why can’t we ask the departed spirits in heaven to do the same thing? The answer is simple. Because Jesus said we now can come to him DIRECTLY and don’t need to consult the spirits of the departed. He said “Come unto ME.”
/QUOTE]

You said “Of course we can ask others in church to pray FOR us.” But then you turned around and said we can’t ask the Church Triumphant to pray for us because we can go directy to Jesus. Do you see where I’m confused? You’re saying.

-Yes, people on earth can pray for us.

• No, people that have passed can’t pray for us because we can go directly to Jesus.

This “going directly to Jesus” argument needs to work both ways. Either both church here on earth and church in heaven can pray for us, or both cannot pray for us because “we can go to directly to Jesus.”

In addition, just another comment. I do not agree that the argument is weak. I found it quite compelling and reasonable.

 

[gladtobe]

Ryan

        The church knew very well who authored the gospels and especially the epistles of Paul, Peter and James. What they weren't sure of was the book of Revelation and Hebrews. Also the book of Enoch and Clement's epistle was debated. But what the apostles wrote, the church knew long BEFORE the 3rd century councils convened that these writings were of apostolic origin. 

        Mr Keating would have you believe the churches in the East and the West were unfamiliar with the apostolic writings until the 3rd century church councils said they were apostolic and written by so and so. This is a lie and he has never retracted this false statement. As I said, the early post apostolic church fathers quoted the apostles from the NT manuscripts word for word in their writings, all PRIOR to the 3rd century. How did these fathers know for an absurdity that what they quoted was of apostolic origin, if the church world didn't already acknowledge these manuscripts were apostolic?  The fathers quoted almost 95% of the writings we now have in the new testament. All BEFORE the councils convened in the 3rd century.

 

[matthew1624]

DustinsDad:

Hello bjcros87, welcome back!

You’re only reading the last part of that passage. If you read the liines leading up to it, you will see that Christians interceeding for Christians is part of the “formula” if you will. We are all a part of the body of Christ, and he allows us to participate in His intercession:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (1 Tim 2:1-6)

So not only is Christian intercession allowed, it is actually urged and commanded by the Word of God. Christ’s mediation between God and man doesn’t nullify this.

And of course, those in heaven are still bound by the Word of God, so they do just what He commands and requests. Revelation makes it quite clear that those in heaven do hear our prayers and offer them up to the Lord:

(Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

(Rev 8:3-4) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
And since our prayers are mental things, one has to admit that the Lord allows those in heaven to “hear” our prayers in some way. Thus we see that it is God’s will. The Lord allows those in heaven to intercede, letting our prayers pass from us, to them, to Him.

DustinsDad

Great post DD!

 

[matthew1624]

“But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

What is your point here? I love the passage though, but I’m not understanding what you are implying.

Peace…

 

[gladtobe]

You quote James 5 and seeking the elders to pray for you concerning physical healing. You should do this, because God COMMANDS it. Just as God says to pray for one another. But God does NOT say we should pray to departed spirits wherever they may be. This was forbidden in the Old Testament. That is the difference.

                                    As I posted previously, there indeed are saints in heaven praying for the church as a whole. But the prayers from the saints on earth, are to be offered to God through Christ alone. Because Christ COMMANDED it. He said "Come unto ME." Not Mary, not Buddha, not Joesph, not St Peter, but unto ME(Jesus).

                                    Jesus is the mediator between God and man. As Paul says there is ONE mediator, not many. That is why we come to God now, solely through Christ alone. He is our high priest, as the high priest stood for the children of Israel.

 

[Curious]

gladtobe,

just making sure you saw my post. apparently we’re both on right now and I think we posted at the same time.

When you have the time could you respond to post 153? You may have seen it and just haven’t had time yet. No rush. Just making sure you saw it.

 

[Lillith]

Gladtobe…I have to say, that you posting things against the Church so strongly might really be confusing to seekers (it’s confusing to me), since you say that you are Catholic.

The communion of Saints is not and should not be in question…what do you do during the profession of faith…skip over that part? Are you unable to say that you believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church also? It sounds to me that you have fallen away from the church…

I will Pray for you