Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

[Church_Militant]

jsussvsus:

Hi All
This is just my opinion but I think that it is wrong to pray TO anyone other than Christ. Asking someone to pray for you is different than praying TO someone. If you hold your hands together and bow your head and then address anyone, then you are praying TO them. My question is why do Catholics bow there heads when praying to Mary? If I’m not mistaken there are prayers that are offered up to Mary. If this is the case, then I think that this is praying TO Mary and is putting things before God.
Thanks

So to ask anyone for anything lessens the position of Christ in our hearst? How silly. The term “pray” has been used forever in English and simply means to ask, does it not? You have no concept of the true nature of the Body of Christ. I’m SURE that none of you have visited the grave of a dead relative and taken the time to talk to them while there (having just very recently lost my own sainted mother, this is fresh in my heart). If you have then your heart and soul knows something that your protestant theology does not.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[gladtobe]

To CURIOUS

                    Of course we can ask others in our church to pray FOR us. But to WHOM are they to praying TO? Mary or Jesus? They would all be praying directly to Jesus. Now you reason, well why can't we ask the departed spirits in heaven to do the same thing? The answer is simple. Because Jesus said we now can come to him DIRECTLY and don't need to consult the spirits of the departed. He said "Come unto ME." 

                      Also I might add this is a weak argument used by Catholic apologists, because the Catholic lay people do not all pray to different departed saints anyway in heaven. They direct there prayers and devotion solely to Mary ALONE to receive graces from either her or from her Son. So Catholics don't really believe in prayers to the REST OF the communion of saints at all. It is just a slick argument to justify praying to Mary period. And in conclusion, Christians only need Christ for their spiritual guidance and link to God. That is simply the truth of it all.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, Here are your questions:
Do you adhere to the doctrines of The Immaculate conception and The Assumption/Dormition of Mary?

No, I do not believe Mary was born without a sinful nature.
As for the bodily assumption of Mary, there is no scripture evidence Mary was indeed taken to heaven and this would have to be a prophetic statement anyway.

Then with all due respect gladtobe, do not refer to yourself as a Catholic. If you do not accept **all **of the infallible doctrines of the Catholic Church in obedience, then you are a dissenter and you have automatically ex-communicated yourself. No one can prevent you from calling yourself Catholic, but you are not. So please, out of respect for the obedient and faithful Catholics on this forum, you should refrain from referring to yourself as such. Thank you.

peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[gladtobe]

Church Militant
First of all, my loved ones who trusted in Christ for eternal life are not in their gravesides. Their decayed bodies are. Their spirits have gone to be with the Lord. Secondly, I do have a fair understanding of the "body of Christ" whether true believers in Christ be all over the earth or their spirits reside in paradise. Where we disagree is to WHOM we should direct our prayers to while on earth. To Christ directly or to Mary or some acknowledged saint the church has deemed worthy? I choose Christ because he said that I can come to him for ANY NEED. He is my advocate, the great shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Life, my Lord and my Savior. Jesus is all I need.

 

[Mickey]

gladtobe:

So Catholics don’t really believe in prayers to the REST OF the communion of saints at all. It is just a slick argument to justify praying to Mary period.

You are poorly informed. :tsktsk:

 

[gladtobe]

Mickey
Of all the saints residing in heaven, who would you say modern day Catholics pray to most often?

 

[jimmy]

jsussvsus:

Hi All
This is just my opinion but I think that it is wrong to pray TO anyone other than Christ. Asking someone to pray for you is different than praying TO someone. If you hold your hands together and bow your head and then address anyone, then you are praying TO them. My question is why do Catholics bow there heads when praying to Mary? If I’m not mistaken there are prayers that are offered up to Mary. If this is the case, then I think that this is praying TO Mary and is putting things before God.
Thanks

Yes, it is praying to Mary, but praying to someone does not equate to putting them before God. There are two types of honor that are given in Catholicism. First there is latria, which is honor that is accorded to God alone. This is given to God alone because he is the immutable and eternal God. It is because God himself that we honor him. It can rightly be called worship in the modern sense of the word. This is where the word Idolotry came from. If you accord latria to anyone or anything other than God it is idolatry.

The second kind of honor that is accorded to someone is called dulia. Dulia is a lower form of honor that is accorded to the saints. This honor is accorded to them in reference to God. It is due to God that we honor these saints. They lived there life here on earth in devotion to God, they sacrificed themselves for God. This is not offered in place of God, it is offered because of God.

Mary recieves a high form of dulia called hyperdulia due to her being chosen by God and also being the greatest of all the saints. Mary is the first among the saints. This is all in reference to God.

The word “pray” comes from the latin deponent verb, “precor, precari, precatus sum”, which means, “to ask” or “to beg”. It does not equate to worship. A good example of the words use would be, “I pray you forgive me”. It is not something that is inherently designed to God. This leads into my next point.

Now, it has probably been said already, but I will repeat it because it is important. One of the main points of prayer to the saints is to ask for their prayers. If you look at the end of the Hail Mary you will see it says, “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” The Confiteor says, “and I ask blessed Mary ever virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the saints to pray for me to the Lord our God.” These are asking for their prayers.

 

[jimmy]

gladtobe:

To CURIOUS

Of course we can ask others in our church to pray FOR us. But to WHOM are they to praying TO? Mary or Jesus? They would all be praying directly to Jesus. Now you reason, well why can’t we ask the departed spirits in heaven to do the same thing? The answer is simple. Because Jesus said we now can come to him DIRECTLY and don’t need to consult the spirits of the departed. He said “Come unto ME.”

Also I might add this is a weak argument used by Catholic apologists, because the Catholic lay people do not all pray to different departed saints anyway in heaven. They direct there prayers and devotion solely to Mary ALONE to receive graces from either her or from her Son. So Catholics don’t really believe in prayers to the REST OF the communion of saints at all. It is just a slick argument to justify praying to Mary period. And in conclusion, Christians only need Christ for their spiritual guidance and link to God. That is simply the truth of it all.

So Catholics don’t really believe in prayers to the REST OF the communion of saints at all.

You have very little knowledge of Catholic prayer life. Do a google search on prayers to the saints. Have you ever read the Confiteor, which is said at every mass? Read it. Look at who is addressed, “and I ask Blessed Mary ever virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John The Baptist, The Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the saints to pray for me to the Lord our God.” Now that looks like it is addressed to all the saints. Here is a prayer to St. Francis Xavier.

O most kind and loving saint, in union with you I adore the Divine Majesty. The remembrance of the favours with which God blessed you during life, and of your glory after death, fills me with joy; and I unite with you in offering to God my humble tribute of thanksgiving and of praise.
I implore of you to secure for me, through your powerful intercession and the all important blessing of living and dying in the state of grace. I also beseech you to obtain the favour I ask in this Novena* (here ask the favour you wish to obtain)*, but if what I ask is not for the glory of God or for the good of my soul, obtain for me what is most conducive to both.

Hmmmmmm, we don’t believe in the communion of the REST OF the saints? I say look again.

They would all be praying directly to Jesus.

Who says? Maybe they would pray to Mary and all the other saints and ask for their prayers. I ask that you view my above posts.

Because Jesus said we now can come to him DIRECTLY and don’t need to consult the spirits of the departed. He said “Come unto ME.”

You are altering verses in your mind. This verse does not say you should not pray to the saints. It says “come to me”. That is all. We come to Jesus with every prayer, even those addressed to Mary and all the other saints.

 

[mercygate]

gladtobe:

To CURIOUS

Of course we can ask others in our church to pray FOR us. But to WHOM are they to praying TO? Mary or Jesus?

Glad, you’re Catholic. Here’s the drill from the Catechism, which, as a Catholic, you embrace fully, of course:

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[956](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/956.htm’) The intercession of the saints. “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.”

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.

I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.

[957](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/957.htm’) Communion with the saints. “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself”:

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!

[958](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/958.htm’) Communion with the dead. “In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.” Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

[1434](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1434.htm’) The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity “which covers a multitude of sins.”

[2683](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2683.htm’) The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.” Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

 

[scylla]

Gladtrobe would it bother you for me to pray for you?

I saw that you said that people had hate for your beliefs, I did not see that here, but I pray that you feel more comfort.

Now since you do call yourself a Catholic, you must go to mass then you know that it is centered around Christ. That is the focus of the Mass. Which I love, because even if there is a boring sermon, shoddy music, or uncomfortable seats, we are there to worship God. Not to be entertained.
As Catholics we believe the highest form of worship is the Mass. As you probably know Protestants highest form of worship usually is prayer, or singing which is why the communion of saints is a barrier for many converts. I don’t think there is a scoreboard in heaven checking to see who gets the most intercessory prayers. We are all in this together for the glory of God.

Now you aren’t required to ask Mary for any intersession, but I would honor her at least as my mother. We are supposed to imitate Christ, be a devoted disciple of Christ. What did He tell the beloved disciple? Behold your mother.

There is no confusion in Catholicism of worship, you can see that at Mass. Coming back to the Church from an evangelical background this took a while for me to understand, in my previous church we only had prayer and singing.

I really think you are presenting a false dichotomy, there is no competition between Jesus or Mary. It sometimes takes some more involvement in the Mass as you will see all glory and honor is almighty God’s.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[jimmy]

gladtobe:

Church Militant

First of all, my loved ones who trusted in Christ for eternal life are not in their gravesides. Their decayed bodies are. Their spirits have gone to be with the Lord. Secondly, I do have a fair understanding of the “body of Christ” whether true believers in Christ be all over the earth or their spirits reside in paradise.

Your profile says Catholic. I don’t see how you can claim knowledge of The Body of Christ, while being Catholic and not knowing that the Confiteor is in the Mass. It is something that is said at every Mass.

Where we disagree is to WHOM we should direct our prayers to while on earth. To Christ directly or to Mary or some acknowledged saint the church has deemed worthy? I choose Christ because he said that I can come to him for ANY NEED. He is my advocate, the great shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Life, my Lord and my Savior. Jesus is all I need.

Yes, you can go to Christ with any problem. That is what we do with each prayer. The problem with your statement is, you imply that your prayers are as good as all the saints in Heaven combined. You refuse prayer to the saints based on the fact that you “don’t need them”. Well, I will take the prayers of the most righteous men to ever walk the earth. They have been sanctified by Christ and cleansed of all evil attachments. Guess whose prayers availeth us much. That is right, those of the righteous man. They are more righteous than you, or me, or any of the people on this planet. Christ said, there is not one on earth greater than John the Baptist born of a woman, but among those in heaven he is the least. Imagine the greatness of their prayers.

I have to go to class or I will be late. I will be back in a few hours.

 

[jimmy]

gladtobe:

Mickey

Of all the saints residing in heaven, who would you say modern day Catholics pray to most often?

It doesn’t matter who recieves the most. Mary recieves the most, but all the saints recieve prayers. There are people who pray to St. Filomena, St. Francis, St. Jude, and all other saints. You need to do a little more reading of Catholicism.

 

[Mickey]

gladtobe:

Mickey

Of all the saints residing in heaven, who would you say modern day Catholics pray to most often?

The “communion of saints” is our family, with Mary being our mother. And so when you ask one saint to pray for you, you are asking them all.

 

[AuntMartha]

gladtobe:

To CURIOUS

Of course we can ask others in our church to pray FOR us. But to WHOM are they to praying TO? Mary or Jesus? They would all be praying directly to Jesus.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[Mickey]

**Prayer to the Most Holy Theotokos **

Accept from us thine unworthy servants, O all-powerful-for-good, immaculate. Sovereign Lady, Mother of God, these honourable gifts, which can be offered only to thee, who art the one chosen out of all generations, and who hast become higher than all creation, heavenly and earthly. For through thee the Lord of hosts was with us, and through thee we came to know the Son of God, and were granted His holy Body and most pure Blood. Wherefore thou art blessed by all generations, the Favourite of God, more radiant than the Cherubim, and more honourable than the Seraphim. And now, O all-hymned, most holy Theotokos, cease not to pray for us thine unworthy servants, to be delivered from every snare of the subtle one, and from all besetting sins, and preserve us unharmed from every poisonous temptation of the devil. But by thy prayers preserve us unto the end uncondemned; for saved by thy help and protection, we send up glory, praise, thanksgiving and worship for all, to the One God in Trinity and Creator of all, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

From The Orthodox Supplicatory Canon

 

[Lina]

elizabeth4truth:

Dear Lina,

Question: Does the above apply to those in heaven too, or do you suppose it is written for those living on earth? Are those in heaven living in righteousness and knowing and understanding God better then those living on earth? Are they one in His will or do they have wills, apart from God?

Elizabeth

I believe it is written for those who are living on earth.

 

[DustinsDad]

wcknight:

IF gladtobe is a Catholic, his arguments has the flavor of a protestant-wanna-be…

If gladtrobe is a catholic, then I’m the dali lamma.

Check his profile for all threads started by him and get the picture.

Gladtrobe is a troll.

DustinsDad

 

[Lina]

Ignatius:

I ask my entire church to pray for me, including those who are already with Him.

How are we to know who is with Him in heaven?

 

[RyanL]

As believers, we are One in the Body of Christ. When we die, are we separated from the Body of Christ?

Or, perhaps Christ has more than one body?

 

[Lina]

itsjustdave1988:

Yes. And “all you holy patriarchs” is part of the litany of saints.

Consider this …

According to Webster, “pray” means “to make a request in a humble manner.” This is how pray is used in the KJV of the Bible, where people “pray” to other people.

“Whose daughter [art] thou? tell me, I pray thee” (Gen 24:23)

According to Vine’s Expository of New Testament Words,

So, your assertion that we are permitted only to make a humble request to Jesus alone is rather absurd. St. John the Apostles spoke to angels and saints in his Revelation, while caught up in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day. I don’t see this as prohibited in Sacred Scripture.

The Sacred Scripture does say there is only one mediator.