po18guy
Well-known member
Try Matthew 18:1-10.
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po18guy
Well-known member
D’oh! :doh2: Excellent suggestion. Since OP is looking at the Church, how about both of the books?I think Saints for Dummies might be more appropriate for what he’s looking for. His brother wants more information on the whole Saints thing.
F
fisherman_carl
Guest
The Communion of Saints is seen in the bible including where it talks about Christians being part of the Body of Christ. We are one and in communion with each other through Christ. And each of Christ’s members affect one another. Can the hand say to the eye, I don’t need you? (1 Cor 12).
“If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.” (1 Cor 12:26-27)
There is not one Body of Christ in heaven and a separate one on earth. There is only one Body of Christ. That means the parts of the body in heaven are still connected through Christ to the parts of its Body on earth. And each of the parts affect each other in some way.
Some modern Christian groups don’t make a distinction between praying and worshiping. But Catholics continue to. The word to pray is an old English word meaning to ask. For example in the old days Sherlock Holmes might say to Watson, “I pray thee, sir Watson, have you figured it out yet?” Is Holmes worshiping Mr. Watson? Of course not, he is asking him a question.
So, if I said to Mary, “intercede for us, I pray”, I am simply saying, “intercede for us, I ask”. There is no worshiping involved. It is no different in principle then saying to a friend, “Please, I pray thee, intercede for my sister who is in hospital.” Does the friend think you are worshiping him or her?
The main difference is that one person is alive on earth and the other person is alive in heaven. Now, if you do not believe that the saints are alive in heaven then you might as well stop reading now. Because, there is no way to prove people are alive in heaven any more than I can prove to you that there is a heaven. We have to take that on faith, faith in what the bible teaches and what the church has always taught.
If we could prove the saints were alive in heaven or even prove there is a heaven we wouldn’t need faith. However, we have to have something to base our faith on or it might be just wishful thinking.
For instance, the existence of Christ and the Resurrection has to be based on facts found in the observable world. Otherwise, we could not claim that our faith was reasonable. If there is no evidence of any of the events that happened in the bible then our faith would be blind. But the faith that the bible talks about is not blind. Heb 11:1 says that faith is the evidence of things unseen. In other words our faith is based on evidence. Granted it is evidence of the unseen, but that unseen does indeed have evidence for its existence. Kind of like the wind. We can measure wind but we can’t actually see it. But we’re not crazy for believing in it because it does have evidence for its existence.
What kind of evidence did the first Apostles have? They were eye witnesses to the biblical events, the life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, it is the validity of their testimony that is much of the evidence of our belief. Not just what they wrote but also what they did. How can we be sure that their testimony is sound? We have to look at their lives as well as collaborating evidence to verify. To do that we have to go to extra biblical sources of evidence. After all, the bible didn’t drop out of the sky. We have to go to the writings of the first Christians, who wrote about them, and told us that all of the 12 Apostles (except John) were martyred, even telling us how they died and where.
That is some evidence that gives credibility to the Apostles testimony, and it is major. After all, if the Apostles got rich off their testimony and drove around in fancy chariots then one could see why they would lie to benefit themselves. But, if the Apostles were poor and persecuted and even martyred without changing their testimony, it makes it difficult at best to see why they would go around lying if that gets them killed.
I brought this up to show that, our faith is grounded in facts. If someone could just find the bones of the dead Jesus then all of Christianity would be proven false. But, in 2000 years no one has been able to do that.
And, so when it comes to whether the saints in heaven are aware of us we can also look to the evidence of Christians before us. We can start with the scriptures but we can also look to the testimonies of our predecessors and what they believed. For instance, every Saint (if not all the ones we can read about) in history, even the one’s who worked great miracles, signs and wonders, had a devotion to Mary. Padre Pio, for instance, used to carry a rosary around with him. Some of his miracles include many healings as well as the gift of bi-location. He also operated in the gift of knowledge. He often knew peoples sins before they even told him. Many people were converted and healed because the Lord worked through him. And, he had a great devotion to Mary. I think the wise can learn something from this.
We can also start with scripture and point to places like Hebrews and show that Paul believed that that the saints in heaven were aware of us. For instance, he says in Heb 12:1, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,…” Who are these witnesses he is talking about? The previous chapter shows us he is talking about some heroes of the OT who are already dead. How could they witness anything if they are dead? Paul seems to think that in some way they are alive enough to notice us. In fact he thinks this enough to say in light of this, “…let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us”.
“If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.” (1 Cor 12:26-27)
There is not one Body of Christ in heaven and a separate one on earth. There is only one Body of Christ. That means the parts of the body in heaven are still connected through Christ to the parts of its Body on earth. And each of the parts affect each other in some way.
Some modern Christian groups don’t make a distinction between praying and worshiping. But Catholics continue to. The word to pray is an old English word meaning to ask. For example in the old days Sherlock Holmes might say to Watson, “I pray thee, sir Watson, have you figured it out yet?” Is Holmes worshiping Mr. Watson? Of course not, he is asking him a question.
So, if I said to Mary, “intercede for us, I pray”, I am simply saying, “intercede for us, I ask”. There is no worshiping involved. It is no different in principle then saying to a friend, “Please, I pray thee, intercede for my sister who is in hospital.” Does the friend think you are worshiping him or her?
The main difference is that one person is alive on earth and the other person is alive in heaven. Now, if you do not believe that the saints are alive in heaven then you might as well stop reading now. Because, there is no way to prove people are alive in heaven any more than I can prove to you that there is a heaven. We have to take that on faith, faith in what the bible teaches and what the church has always taught.
If we could prove the saints were alive in heaven or even prove there is a heaven we wouldn’t need faith. However, we have to have something to base our faith on or it might be just wishful thinking.
For instance, the existence of Christ and the Resurrection has to be based on facts found in the observable world. Otherwise, we could not claim that our faith was reasonable. If there is no evidence of any of the events that happened in the bible then our faith would be blind. But the faith that the bible talks about is not blind. Heb 11:1 says that faith is the evidence of things unseen. In other words our faith is based on evidence. Granted it is evidence of the unseen, but that unseen does indeed have evidence for its existence. Kind of like the wind. We can measure wind but we can’t actually see it. But we’re not crazy for believing in it because it does have evidence for its existence.
What kind of evidence did the first Apostles have? They were eye witnesses to the biblical events, the life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, it is the validity of their testimony that is much of the evidence of our belief. Not just what they wrote but also what they did. How can we be sure that their testimony is sound? We have to look at their lives as well as collaborating evidence to verify. To do that we have to go to extra biblical sources of evidence. After all, the bible didn’t drop out of the sky. We have to go to the writings of the first Christians, who wrote about them, and told us that all of the 12 Apostles (except John) were martyred, even telling us how they died and where.
That is some evidence that gives credibility to the Apostles testimony, and it is major. After all, if the Apostles got rich off their testimony and drove around in fancy chariots then one could see why they would lie to benefit themselves. But, if the Apostles were poor and persecuted and even martyred without changing their testimony, it makes it difficult at best to see why they would go around lying if that gets them killed.
I brought this up to show that, our faith is grounded in facts. If someone could just find the bones of the dead Jesus then all of Christianity would be proven false. But, in 2000 years no one has been able to do that.
And, so when it comes to whether the saints in heaven are aware of us we can also look to the evidence of Christians before us. We can start with the scriptures but we can also look to the testimonies of our predecessors and what they believed. For instance, every Saint (if not all the ones we can read about) in history, even the one’s who worked great miracles, signs and wonders, had a devotion to Mary. Padre Pio, for instance, used to carry a rosary around with him. Some of his miracles include many healings as well as the gift of bi-location. He also operated in the gift of knowledge. He often knew peoples sins before they even told him. Many people were converted and healed because the Lord worked through him. And, he had a great devotion to Mary. I think the wise can learn something from this.
We can also start with scripture and point to places like Hebrews and show that Paul believed that that the saints in heaven were aware of us. For instance, he says in Heb 12:1, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,…” Who are these witnesses he is talking about? The previous chapter shows us he is talking about some heroes of the OT who are already dead. How could they witness anything if they are dead? Paul seems to think that in some way they are alive enough to notice us. In fact he thinks this enough to say in light of this, “…let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us”.
M
MontChevalier
Guest
Ahhh, yes, I should have said that too.
So I agree, the OP should look at both books. They look easy to gain, so it’s all cool.
D
dje101
Guest
lol. I shall take both of your guy’s advice and purchase both. They are on my “wishlist” on Amazon.Ahhh, yes, I should have said that too.
So I agree, the OP should look at both books. They look easy to gain, so it’s all cool.
D
dje101
Guest
Yeah! Thats the one. Thanks for putting that up. I don’t have the best memory with scripture verses, so it would have taken me a long time to find it again.
po18guy
Well-known member
Cool. Once you read them, you will know more than most Catholics.
M
MontChevalier
Guest
Or is at least up to speed as a regular Catholic.
po18guy
Well-known member
From your lips to God’s ears!Or is at least up to speed as a regular Catholic.
C
Cat
Guest
You really can’t use the Apostles’ Creed to prove the Catholic understanding of Communion of the Saints to a Protestant, because Protestants have a different understanding of the doctrine of Communion of the Saints and they would say that Catholics have twisted the Apostles’ Creed.
Here is Question 55 from the Heidelberg Catechism (a catechism that is used in Calvinistic churches
Question 55. What do you understand by “the communion of saints”?
Answer. First, that all and every one, who believes, being members of Christ, are in common, * partakers of him, and of all his riches and gifts; secondly, that every one must know it to be his duty, readily and [j] cheerfully to employ his gifts, for the advantage and salvation of other members.
My husband and I grew up evangelical Protestant. We knew about the Apostles Creed, and in my church we read it every few years.
To us, the doctrine of Communion of the Saints had nothing to do with asking the saints to pray for us. We would have considered that a sin, as the Bible teaches that we are not to attempt to communicate with the dead.
To us, as evangelical Protestants, the doctrine of Communion of the Saints referred to the unity of all Christians. Even if we had disagreements with Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Episcopals, Pentecostals, non-denominational Christians, the Orthodox, etc.–we believed that we were all One in Christ.
We based this doctrine on the Bible.mainly passages like I Corinthians 12 (especially vs. 13), and Ephesians 4 (especially vs. 4).
And as you can see, this interpretation of “Communion of the Saints” is what the ancient Protestant catechisms teach
There was no real practical conclusion regarding this doctrine, other than to make sure that we were always charitable towards those who were believers in Jesus, but attended a different church than us, and to make sure that we used our spiritual gifts to build up the Body of Christ.
I would say that this is still the basic understanding of the doctrine of Communion of the Saints in evangelical Protestant churches–being One in Christ. It has nothing to do with asking those who are in heaven to pray for us.
So forget about using the Apostles Creed to prove anything.
If you DO use the Apostles’ Creed, you’re going to have to find evidence regarding exactly what the Apostles meant when they referred to Communion of the Saints. You’re going to have to prove that they believed we could ask those in heaven to pray for us.
That being said, I will tell you that my very Protestant parents-in-law never believed in asking the saints for intercession–UNTIL their grandson was diagnosed with cancer at age 2. That’s when they learned that Catholics pray and ask everyone else, including those in heaven, to pray for them. And my parents-in-law began believing in calling upon the saints to pray when they saw that the little boy was getting better. My parents-in-law actually made a trip to The Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows to ask the priests and the saints to pray for their grandson. Today he’s fine, although he still has 3 years to go to be pronounced permanently cured. Cancer is mean.
I agree with the Bible passages posted in earlier posts–these are good to show to Protestants, especially Hebrews 12:1–that one is hard to get around!*
Here is Question 55 from the Heidelberg Catechism (a catechism that is used in Calvinistic churches
Question 55. What do you understand by “the communion of saints”?
Answer. First, that all and every one, who believes, being members of Christ, are in common, * partakers of him, and of all his riches and gifts; secondly, that every one must know it to be his duty, readily and [j] cheerfully to employ his gifts, for the advantage and salvation of other members.
My husband and I grew up evangelical Protestant. We knew about the Apostles Creed, and in my church we read it every few years.
To us, the doctrine of Communion of the Saints had nothing to do with asking the saints to pray for us. We would have considered that a sin, as the Bible teaches that we are not to attempt to communicate with the dead.
To us, as evangelical Protestants, the doctrine of Communion of the Saints referred to the unity of all Christians. Even if we had disagreements with Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Episcopals, Pentecostals, non-denominational Christians, the Orthodox, etc.–we believed that we were all One in Christ.
We based this doctrine on the Bible.mainly passages like I Corinthians 12 (especially vs. 13), and Ephesians 4 (especially vs. 4).
And as you can see, this interpretation of “Communion of the Saints” is what the ancient Protestant catechisms teach
There was no real practical conclusion regarding this doctrine, other than to make sure that we were always charitable towards those who were believers in Jesus, but attended a different church than us, and to make sure that we used our spiritual gifts to build up the Body of Christ.
I would say that this is still the basic understanding of the doctrine of Communion of the Saints in evangelical Protestant churches–being One in Christ. It has nothing to do with asking those who are in heaven to pray for us.
So forget about using the Apostles Creed to prove anything.
If you DO use the Apostles’ Creed, you’re going to have to find evidence regarding exactly what the Apostles meant when they referred to Communion of the Saints. You’re going to have to prove that they believed we could ask those in heaven to pray for us.
That being said, I will tell you that my very Protestant parents-in-law never believed in asking the saints for intercession–UNTIL their grandson was diagnosed with cancer at age 2. That’s when they learned that Catholics pray and ask everyone else, including those in heaven, to pray for them. And my parents-in-law began believing in calling upon the saints to pray when they saw that the little boy was getting better. My parents-in-law actually made a trip to The Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows to ask the priests and the saints to pray for their grandson. Today he’s fine, although he still has 3 years to go to be pronounced permanently cured. Cancer is mean.
I agree with the Bible passages posted in earlier posts–these are good to show to Protestants, especially Hebrews 12:1–that one is hard to get around!*
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