Who was the first ECF to reject the deutero's?

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Pwrlftr said:
Robert,
Why would a prominent catholic theologian such as Cardinal Cajetan reject the deutero’s? He interviewed Luther at the Diet of Worms.
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According to the dissertation of Alexander Andree ('05 Stockholm University) and Beryl Smalley [these are easily googled on line] ALL Glossae Ordinariae had the full Catholic OT, you know, the deuteros?

From page 44 of the dissertation [footnotes omitted]: “However, there was never one single manuscript with the Glossa Ordinaria to the entire Bible, though traces of a glossed Bible in two volumes have come down to us. As de Hamel asserts, 'a full set of glossed books of the Bible generally comprised about 21 volumes, but Thomas a Becket’s glossed books lacked Ezra, Daniel, Maccabees and Acts.”

Two pages later are references to other collections containing Maccabees and Wisdom, but lacking Psalms and Lamentations.

In other words, powerlifter, there was NO set ‘glossa ordinaria’ as various priests and monks were printing copies of those commentaries they had in their libraries with the Catholic Bible used in liturgy: the Vulgate.

All three of your ‘why’ questions have been answered, unless of course, by NOT EXACTLY MENTIONING WHAT THE CANON WAS those referenced cardinals were rejecting something or other.

And in your infallible interpretation, this may be the gospel truth.

Robert
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Pwrlftr said:
You called my question dumb and I’m the one being antagonistic?

I asked you “So according to you, does the Cathlic Encyclopedia state that Melito accepted the deutero’s or does it say that he rejected them?
Which is it?”

And you say:
IT SAYS NEITHER.

It says he had his own idea for the canon.

His own idea for the canon did not include the deutero’s did it? This is kind of a yes or no question.
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Try to listen closely…

YES. His proposed canon did NOT include the Deuteros.
YES. He never rejected the deuteros.

If you want to rephrase your question, you might be able to get an intelligent conversation going.
 
Pwrlftr said:
In fact, why hold a vote at all if this all was decided at Carthage and or Hippo?
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Because, as was the case with most councils, a challenge had arisen. Heretics were once again stirring the faithful against the Church, so the Church addressed the issue so that the people could know for sure what the Lord has to say about the issues at hand.
 
SyCarl said:
I think that the question is essentially, by listing the books he did, does Melito implicitly exclude the books that he does not name?

I think that is reasonable to answer yes.

If I say these are the works of Shakespeare and then give a list, does that mean that I might think Shakespeare wrote Tom Sawyer because I did not explicitly say he didn’t? If it is necessary when listing the contents of something to explicitly exclude everything not in it, you are requiring the unreasonable.
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What you say is, of course, quite reasonable. However, what pwrlftr is trying to do is quite different. He is trying to get everyone here to agree, by default, by his suggestion, that any ECF might actually reject something outright without allowing for his accedence to the voice of the magisterium.

I know it may seem a small point, but the choice of wording is important when dealing with folks like these. And again, I have absolutely no problem having a scholarly discussion on the topic if people don’t insist on leaping forward and applying their personal logic to someone else and forcing everyone here to accept it by default.

I have politely invited him to rephrase his question a number of times. His obstinance is going to get in the way of any fruitful discussion.
 
Pwrlftr said:
What of Jerome? I assume you believe he accepted the deutero’s also? Even though he flat out rejected them in his preface to each of the deutero’s in the vulgate.
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Again, your implication goes beyond your words and words are important.

Jerome most certainly expressed his concens about the deuteros and then happily accepted the magisterium’s authority in fixing the canon.
 
Why don’t you try…

Who was the first EFC to question the inspiration of the deuteros?

Who was the first ECF to propose exclusion of the deuteros?

Who was the first ECF to express his personal belief that the deuteros might not be inspired?

These would be a little more accurate, would lack the implication you are trying to force, and could get a real conversation started.

Otherwise, your wording has at least the implication that an ECF might not accede to the authority of the magisterium. The reality is that every city church had their own sort of loose idea of the canon and went along fine awaiting an official canon from Christ’s universal Church.
 
Just to add as St. Jerome has come up often in the thread.

In St. Jeromes prologue to Judith, without using the word canon, he mentioned that Judith was held to be scriptural by the First Council of Nicaea. In his reply to Rufinus, he stoutly defended the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel even though the Jews of his day did not:
St. Jerome:
What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the Story of Susanna, the Song of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us. (Against Rufinus, 11:33 [AD 402]).
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Thus Jerome acknowledged the principle by which the canon was settled — the judgment of the Church, rather than his own judgment or the judgment of Jews. | souce |
 
While questions about the ECF are usually fruitful, making a case that a few ECF’s questioning the books of the bible means something is going to blow up in their face. That is, the fact that NO ECF correctly identified all the books of Scripture until the 4th century is going to make mincemeat of the Bible-Alone doctrine.
 
Powerlifter;

Another point that you seem to be overlooking is that “the protocanon minus Esther” is not, in fact, the protocanon. It is a different canon, and it is unique to Melito.

Therefore, I don’t think you can take his canon as a “vote in favour” of the canon used by Protestants today, since Protestants today include the Book of Esther (which, according to your logic, Melito “rejected.”)
 
jmcrae said:
Powerlifter;

Another point that you seem to be overlooking is that “the protocanon minus Esther” is not, in fact, the protocanon. It is a different canon, and it is unique to Melito.

Therefore, I don’t think you can take his canon as a “vote in favour” of the canon used by Protestants today, since Protestants today include the Book of Esther (which, according to your logic, Melito “rejected.”)
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I have never claimed he accepted the same canon I accept. I simply asked who was the first ECF to reject the deutero’s.
 
Let’s put it this way, pwrlftr. Who was the first ECF to reject the Didache?
 
Scottgun said:
While questions about the ECF are usually fruitful, making a case that a few ECF’s questioning the books of the bible means something is going to blow up in their face. That is, the fact that NO ECF correctly identified all the books of Scripture until the 4th century is going to make mincemeat of the Bible-Alone doctrine.
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You’re right - the one thing this does prove is that they didn’t think it was important to gain doctrine from the Scriptures. They were already getting it from the Holy Tradition, and the Scriptures were just a support for that (one of many); not the sole source.
 
Read Hershel Shanks the Dead Sea Scrolls, not all Jews wanted Esther in their Tanaks. Or Daniel. Or the Song of Solomon or Quohelet.
Some even wanted only the Torah!
No wonder St Melito left Esther out.
 
inthecloud said:
Read Hershel Shanks the Dead Sea Scrolls, not all Jews wanted Esther in their Tanaks. Or Daniel. Or the Song of Solomon or Quohelet.
Some even wanted only the Torah!
No wonder St Melito left Esther out.
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Actually, I sympathize on not wanting Qoheleth (Ecclesiastes) - it is a very confusing book!
 
Pwrlftr said:
The biggest difference between you and I on this issue is that I don’t think any pope or council is infallible but yes, I accept the testimony of the early church on the canon of the NT.
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Yet at the same time reject that same early church’s testimony on the OT :confused:

I believe that is the root of the issue…why accept the testimony of the early church for NT canon and trinity while rejecting that same church testimony on OT canon and eucharist?

That some early christians like Jerome initially held to the Septuigint but later under jewish influences gave greater weight to books favored by the same jewish community that rejected Christ and the Church should cause you some concern …

Do those who rejected Christ and the scriptures used [even at the early date] ‘historically’ by the apostles [who handed them on to the church] have greater authority over writings used by Christians?

Even Jerome [who expressed a preference for the Hebrew] translated the writings used by the Church. He noted in his preludes his thoughts and the opinion their inclusion would provoke the jewish community … he [Jerome] deferred to the authority of the church…

As for Trent, Trent took the scriptures that some [Luther mainly] were mis-translating [adding words to impose a theology] and re-moving [either completely or to an appendix] certain books [OT & NT] and looked at the historically used and accepted [by the church] canon … that is the same cannon from the councils held in 398, etc…

The testimony of the church through time [not any individual] without picking and choosing the testimony to accept seems more prudent for the christian of today … IMHO

Pax Christe
 
Pwrlftr said:
From everything I have read, there is no evidence that the council at Jamnia, if it can be called a council, never discussed the deutero’s. I am basing this off of FF Bruce, Beckwith, and MacDonald.

Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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fisheaters.com/septuagint.html

Just scroll to the part on council of jamnia and you will have read something quite different from what you’ve previously read.

I’m sure a quick google will turn you up many more sources…
 
sterryfamily said:
And it appears no ECF ever rejected the Deuteros. You certainly haven’t demonstrated that any have.

Would you like to rephrase your question?

…if not, there is nothing to discuss.
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You know, it’s interesting. I just finished listening to the Gary Michuta Debate with James White and Gary admitted several times that some ECF’s rejected the deutero’s.

I have no idea why you don’t understand the word “reject”. I even posted the definition of “reject” from Merriam Webster and you still seem to be having trouble.
 
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