Who was the historical Jesus?

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Steve Andersen:
…]
Sour grapes 😉
I’m not sure they’re sour grapes.
You ask an awful lot of questions
Yes, that seems to be part of my nature. And while we’re at it let’s continue but coming from the other side this time.
Do you think you know Caesar? See if you can pass this little test:
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					  							**Do we really know Caesar?
						
						**

					  						 							 Shall we put it to the test? Which of the alternative answers proffered below is correct?

						 [list=1]
*]Caesar, apart from having held just about all the Roman official positions and titles, amongst other things Quaestor, Aedile, Consul, Emperor - either successively or contemporaneously - there was one which he held which was considered to be the most important and was always mentioned in pride of place. It was:
a) Dictator;
b) Pontifex maximus.

*]The first Roman to intervene in a civil war at the head of a private army was
a) Caesar;
b) Octavian, (later called Augustus).

*]During the Gallic war:
a) Caesar ordered the horses of the Teutons to be stolen and proudly divided the booty amongst the young Roman knights.
b) Caesar took the horses away from the proud young roman knights and awarded them to his Teutonic equestrians.

*]After the conquest of Gaul:
a) Caesar deported the defeated as slaves to Rome, ordered the men to fight each other as gladiators in the circus and threw the women and children to the lions;
b) He awarded the Gauls the right to Roman citizenship and appointed many of them as Senators, to the extent that more Gallic trousers were to be seen in Rome than togas.

*]After all the worldwide wars, Caesar:
a) …left behind a deserted, depopulated world, razed the resisting towns to the ground, increased the taxes, took away the best arable land from the peoples, distributed it to the Roman aristocrats and thereby starved out the provinces;
b) …rebuilt the destroyed towns and founded countless new ones, lowered the taxes, confiscated the usurped estates of the aristocrats, distributed the best land to the veterans and the proletarians, reversed the spread of pasture land, promoted farming and thereby defeated the famine and left behind thriving countryside.

*]After his victory in the civil war
a) Caesar made an example of his enemies and ordered all of them to be executed, even having Spartacus crucified;
b) Caesar forgave all his enemies, reinstated them to their positions and honor, and most touchingly, he took especial care of Brutus, who would later murder him.

*]Caesar was murdered:
a) because he had suppressed the Roman people and enslaved the foreign races; Gauls and Jews were among the principals of the conspiracy; at the funeral speech Anthony spoke the famous word “and Brutus is an honorable man”, the people celebrated, dragged the body of the tyrant through the city and finally threw it into the Tiber;
b) because he had cut back the privileges of the Roman nobility; the most distinguished of Romans were among the conspirators, the learned Cicero was one of the principals; Gauls and Jews mourned him longer than all the others; at his funeral Anthony praised him as a God and his deeds as miracles; the people burned Caesars body in the Forum, revolted against the murderers, hunted them down and drove them out of the city.

*]After his assassination:
a) Caesar was condemned and his name became a nickname for all his successors, especially for the bad ones like Caligula and Nero, who were called Caesar in mockery and scorn;
b) Caesar was raised to the Gods out of the deepest conviction of the people and only the best of his successors were allowed to be seen as Gods after his example.
Code:
						 If you knew the correct answers i.e. in all cases (b) - or if you can at least entertain the idea that these are the correct ones and not obdurately maintain that Caesar is the spiritual grandfather of Mussolini, the tyrant of Asterix and the persecutor of the early Christians, if you have studied history not (only) in Hollywood (Quo Vadis, Ben Hur, Spartacus, etc.), if you are perhaps not so certain that Rome really was the “ancient empire of evil” (O-Ton Spiegel-TV, and others), then you are prepared for the “Crash of History” that you will experience whilst reading this texts, or at least, partially prepared.
…]

Source: carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma/edictato.html
 
Peter,

Why don’t you interact with my arguments? Anyone can be a propagandist.
 
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Apolonio:
Peter,

Why don’t you interact with my arguments? Anyone can be a propagandist.
Frankly, Apolonio, because I did not like your tone. And when I went to your weblog and read your musings there I was even less desposed to respond to your “question”?

“…]Could it be that the reason why they put Jesus first in their lives is because He is Yahweh himself?”
apolonio.blogspot.com/

A Catholic knows in his heart that this is not true.
You might want to read a little about Marcion and others, also take a close look at the bible of the Jews, the so-called Old Testament, and learn a little about what they wrote about Yahweh, whom they worship.
And a good site for you to learn a bit about the historicity of the assumed miracle-doing wandering preacher Jesus of Nazareth (a village that didn’t even exist in the first century) is here: jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html

And finally, why would you want to interact with a “propagandist”? Maybe because you’re one yourself?
 
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Apolonio:
Peter,Why don’t you interact with my arguments?
Because, dear Apolonio, Peter is only here to promote his translation of Carotta’s book. And because Peter always avoids discussion. He is afraid of it and can’t do anything but posting links to his masters site. When there are too much critical voices he sneaks out, or changes his tactics, like in his last posting. Now he is showing what a good and noble man Caesar was. You must know that for Carotta and his disciples Caesar is really a God we should worship. The translator of his book in Dutch, Tommie Hendriks, who lives in Utrecht, the city S. Willibrordus, has a relief on his house showing the Clementia Caesaris and the following text: Ceterum censeo monumentum Willibrordi esse amovendum.
Bernard
 
Funny,
“Peter” posted his last reply just after I started to write my last one. Seems he finally lost his temper. This last link will make him very popular on a Catholic site. Guess he won’t be around for long here anymore.
 
Apolonio, don’t let yourself be confused by the twaddler.

Jesus is not Caesar, Jesus is Divus Iulius as he has been transmitted through history.
 
Peter_W.:
Apolonio, don’t let yourself be confused by the twaddler.
You see, never an argument.
Peter_W.:
Jesus is not Caesar, Jesus is Divus Iulius as he has been transmitted through history.
And Carotta is his prophet.
Amen, Halleluja.
 
Peter you are not putting forth a very credible view of yourself. Reading your posts I know I do not want to read the book you are pushing.
 
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jimmy:
Peter you are not putting forth a very credible view of yourself. Reading your posts I know I do not want to read the book you are pushing.
If you don’t want to read the book (wish I were the publisher indeed :)) then, fine, leave it. There are always people who prefer to stay in self-chosen ignorance.
 
Peter_W.:
If you don’t want to read the book (wish I were the publisher indeed :)) then, fine, leave it. There are always people who prefer to stay in self-chosen ignorance.
It has nothing to do with self chosen ignorance. It has to do with you ignoring the facts and your uncharitableness.

It seems like you are trying to sell this book.
 
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jimmy:
It seems like you are trying to sell this book.
He is. See my first posting. Although, perhaps I should say he is not selling, but preaching. Well, that difference has been more often not too clear.
 
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jimmy:
It has nothing to do with self chosen ignorance. It has to do with you ignoring the facts and your uncharitableness.
I don’t think your accusations are true. But even if they were what would that have to do with the epoch-making work ‘Jesus was Caesar’.
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jimmy:
It seems like you are trying to sell this book.
For goodness sake, I am not selling it, I think it is an enlightening read for all, be they Christians or not.
You don’t have to buy it, here it is online (essential parts, the rest probably later):
carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/contents.html

When you’re through with that you will also see what this ‘cheese’ really is. He and his master, Anton van Hooff, who tried to prevent Carotta from giving a lecture in the Netherlands and made a big fool of himself, are afraid of being finally exposed for the fools they are. They are also slandering and denigrating prominent scholars from the Netherlands who endorse this great work.
To prevent being finally exposed they resort to all kinds of tricks, lying, distorting, and try to frighten well-meaning but timid people. Once people understand the facts of the matter their game is over.
Hope this helps.

Peter
 
Peter_W.:
When you’re through with that you will also see what this ‘cheese’ really is…
You told that already on Feb. 15, Joseph, and I answered you on Feb. 16. Go to bed. Anger makes you sloppy.
By the way, as you know I met Anton only once in my entire life (thanks to our affair with Carotta, true, for which I’m very gratefull to him. We had a very amusing exchange of our experiences with you and Francesco).
Peter_W.:
They are also slandering and denigrating prominent scholars from the Netherlands who endorse this great work.
endorsed (past tence), like Paul Cliteur, professor of philosophy in Leiden, who called the book of the same importance as Galilei and Darwin. He’s the only reason I spend time on this nonsense anyhow. We had a nice debate for about a week by e-mail. Then our professor ran out of arguments and quitted. (In fact the only argument he had was the incredibility of the gospelstories. So I asked him if that was enough to justify the acceptation of another incredible story and then he got pissed). I suggest you ask him how he thinks about Carotta now. Guess who’s afraid of being exposed for the fool he is? Same goes for Thomas von der Dunk (historian), who, after a first positive review, didn’t know anything better to do than discrediting the person (Van Hooff) who showed him what a fool he had been and denying that he had written that he believed in Carotta’s theory.
Peter_W.:
To prevent being finally exposed they resort to all kinds of tricks, lying, distorting, and try to frighten well-meaning but timid people.
??? I always use my own name, contrary to you, I always give exemples and I always try to start a debate, but so far you always back out.
So cut the personal **** and choose any item from Carotta’s book you want to discuss with me, open and fair, or shut up and go annoy your family.
 
This is the same kind of cra…stuff that comes out of the “Jesus Seminar.” There was a guy that came on my campus debunking the “Jesus Seminar” and the “Historical Jesus”…This kind of scholarship is not accepted by academics.

By the way Peter, what religion would you happen to be?
 
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Sanctus:
This is the same kind of cra…stuff that comes out of the “Jesus Seminar.” There was a guy that came on my campus debunking the “Jesus Seminar” and the “Historical Jesus”…This kind of scholarship is not accepted by academics.
Then perhaps the intelligent, interested laypersons should read it and come to their own conclusions.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information and knowledge, which is proof that will crush truth and destroy facts, and which cannot fail to keep any man or set of men in everlasting ignorance. This principle is condemnation prior to examination.”
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Sanctus:
By the way Peter, what religion would you happen to be?
I was raised a Catholic.
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Sanctus:
Code:
			Gloria in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonæ voluntatis.
Sit nomen Domini benedictum.

Peter Wagner
 
You know Peter, it would be nice if you were just trying to bring some honest, intriguing information here. However, from how you present yourself I can’t help but take you as a perrson who wants arguments.

First take a look at your topic on the Apologetics page. You have a smiley face icon by your topic “Who was the historical Jesus?”. It just seems like you want an argument.

I can’t get anything out of this topic, because it is just overflowing with bad-mouthing and slander from both sides.
 
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Sanctus:
This is the same kind of cra…stuff that comes out of the “Jesus Seminar.” There was a guy that came on my campus debunking the “Jesus Seminar” and the “Historical Jesus”…This kind of scholarship is not accepted by academics.
Talking about academics…
The following three are academics, even clerics, one of them a prominent German Jesuit.

‘The book paints down to the smallest details a picture of the similarities between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ.’
Rev. Willem J. Ouweneel, Ph.D. D.D.

'Carotta writes with respect for his subject, even with religious discretion, with witty irony but also with poetry. Even if one cannot or will not follow the author’s conclusions, one learns much about Roman religiousness, which became the basis of the development of the Christian faith in the European cultural environment.’
Rev. Stephan Ch. Kessler S J, Dr. theol.

The Reverend Pedro García González, who is working on the Spanish translation, a Catholic priest of a Spanish village, Rascafría, near Madrid, writes in the Introit:
*‘To my astonishment, the Passion and the whole Gospel had a truly Roman context, and they do lead back to Julius Caesar.’
*

They obviously don’t think it’s cra…stuff, do they?
And as far as I know they have not been excommunicated either.

Peter
 
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Shinobu:
…]
First take a look at your topic on the Apologetics page. You have a smiley face icon by your topic “Who was the historical Jesus?”. It just seems like you want an argument.

I can’t get anything out of this topic, because it is just overflowing with bad-mouthing and slander from both sides.
Sorry, if that smiley offends you, Shinobu. Is it possible to remove it or replace it, perhaps with the “thumb up” or rather a “warning hot stuff”?

I’d prefer it too, if only those people who are really interested in the historical Jesus posted in this thread, but, alas, there are others…
 
Peter,

I’m going to re-post what I said. Let’s see if you can interact with it or you are just a sophist.

Peter,

I’m a student at Rutgers who is in a liberal New Testament class. My professor is so liberal that she thinks the Jesus Seminar is conservative (I’m not kidding). I know a pretty good amount of stuff on the “quest for the historical Jesus”. I had some musings on this topic a while ago. You can see it here:

apolonio.blogspot.com

Scroll down and you will find some musings on the historical Jesus.

As far as the remark:

“He thinks the Gospel of Mark is a mutated story of the Roman civil war from the Rubicon to the Caesar’s assassination and apotheosis.”

Okay, let’s take the Gospel of Mark. We do know these:
  1. Mark is arguing that Jesus is the messiah. In fact, the first verse proclaims him as the “son of God,” which does not necessarily mean the second Person of the Trinity, but the Messiah (Qumran).
  2. Mark writes about a man named Jesus who claims he is the messiah and then says that he was put to death by the worse kind of punishment, which was mostly to peasants and worse criminals, by Roman pagans.
  3. Mark at the end of the gospel says that Jesus resurrected (there is an empty tomb).
Then, with all those three factors in, the author of the gospel is simply reinventing the story of Ceasar, a roman pagan emperor.

So the so called “historian” of the website you mentioned thinks that this gospel, written by a first century Jew, would argue that this man Jesus of Nazereth is the messih with all the factors said above?!??! It just does not make any sense. For a first century Jew to argue that Jesus is the messiah by adapting paganism is very very very unlikely. I mean, this person in the first century out of no where, will try to make up a story about a man being persecuted and resurrecting in a second temple Judaism is very stupid. That kind of thinking is not even in the minds of the first century Jews.
 
Peter_W.:
I’m not sure they’re sour grapes.
its called wit 😉
Peter_W.:
……
Do you think you know Caesar?
Which one? There have been Caesars for millennia from Julius through various Eastern and Western Emperors down to Kaisers and Tsars.
Peter_W.:
See if you can pass this little test:
OK
Peter_W.:
b) Pontifex maximus.
Is this supposed to be earth shattering news?

The Roman Casers held the title Pontifex Maximus for 3-4 centuries
Before that it was held by various priests for 5 centuries during the Republic and before that by the kings of Rome

It’s a title…so what
He took it to consolidate his power
Peter_W.:
The first Roman to intervene in a civil war at the head of a private army was.
IIRC it was Sulla during the first Civil war about 40 years prior to Julius
Peter_W.:
During the Gallic war:.
Caesar was a canny General and politician. However he divided his booty it was to Caesars’ benefit. BYW weren’t the Gallic wars were fought against the Galls not the Tuetons? 😉
Peter_W.:
After the conquest of Gaul:.
Granting citizenship, with the exception of certain individuals like kings and other tribal leaders, in the provinces came centuries later.

Caesar killed tens of thousands of Gauls and set a variety of slaves and hostages home.

Others were brought home as guests and allies. Some were left in place to lord it over their defeated cousins

It is what conquerors did.
Peter_W.:
After all the worldwide wars, Caesar:
Caesar used the conquered lands to pay off his troops, his political allies, and himself; quite typical for the times. He really didn’t live that long afterwards

By making Egypt a personal fiefdom he secured a source of grain that was to allow his successors to play the bread and circus game for years

He then started a series of social reforms
Peter_W.:
After his victory in the civil war
a) Caesar made an example of his enemies and ordered all of them to be executed, even having Spartacus crucified;
IIRC That was Pompey and Crassus who fought Spartacus….20 years before Caesar crossed the Rubicon and started the 2nd civil war.

Julius was serving in the east at the time crucifying Cillian pirates. He couldn’t return to Rome until after Sulla died.
Peter_W.:
b) Caesar forgave all his enemies, reinstated them to their positions and honor, and most touchingly, he took especial care of Brutus, who would later murder him.
The best way to make peace after a civil war is to rehabilitate the other side, co-opt them and make it in their best interest to support the new order
Peter_W.:
Caesar was murdered:
Because he was becoming a de facto king and the Senators would loose power if a strong central monarchy arose
Peter_W.:
After his assassination:.
His successors deified him
The losers of the war probably had some choice things to say
But dead men don’t tell tales.

Peter_W. said:
……. or if you can at least entertain the idea that these are the correct ones and not obdurately maintain that Caesar is the spiritual grandfather of Mussolini, the tyrant of Asterix and the persecutor of the early Christians,

Julius Caesar was dead 40 years before Christ was born.
How could anyone claim that he persecuted Christians?
Peter_W.:
if you have studied history not (only) in Hollywood (Quo Vadis, Ben Hur, Spartacus, etc.),
Hollywood? That’s not history!

Try Tacitius , Livy, even Caesars own “Gallic wars”
Peter_W.:
if you are perhaps not so certain that Rome really was the “ancient empire of evil”
Who would say such a thing? Rome represents great achievements in administration, engineering, and military science.

To this day there are nations that have Senates and Capitols. Public buildings are still done up like Roman temples. Civil law is still widely used across the world. How many millions speak Romance languages? How many follow the Roman church?

IMHO the polity called ”Rome” may have fallen but it’s culture continues on.
Peter_W.:
(O-Ton Spiegel-TV, and others), then you are prepared for the “Crash of History” that you will experience whilst reading this texts, or at least, partially prepared.
Source: carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma/edictato.html
thank you……I think

But what does this have to do with the Historical Jesus?
 
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