Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

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Prodigal_Son1 said:
I hope I have provided enough foundation for a discussion.
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Yes you have provided quite a bit of information brother, and I am grateful you did. As you showed there is a difference between the word Rock and the name Peter.
One is male and one is female.
Looking through the Bible we see that in many instances the word rock is either used to describe an actual rock or to describe God.

God:
Deuteronomy 32:4; Deuteronomy 32:15; Deuteronomy 32:18; Deuteronomy 32:30-31; 1 Samuel 2:2; 2 Samuel 22:2-3; 2 Samuel 22:32; 2 Samuel 22:47; 2 Samuel 23:3; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 18:31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 28:1; Psalm 31:2; Psalm 31:3; Psalm 42:9; Psalm 61:2; Psalm 62:2; Psalm 62:6; Psalm 62:7; Psalm 71:3; Psalm 78:35; Psalm 89:26; Psalm 92:15; Psalm 94:22; Psalm 95:1; Isaiah 17:10

Actual rock:
Exodus 17:6; Exodus 33:21-22; Numbers 20:8-11; Numbers 23:9; Numbers 24:21; Deuteronomy 8:15; Deuteronomy 32:13; Deuteronomy 32:31; Deuteronomy 32:37; Judges 1:36; Judges 6:20-21; Judges 6:26; Judges 7:25; Judges 13:19; Judges 15:8; Judges 15:11; Judges 15:13; Judges 20:45; Judges 20:47; Judges 21:13; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Samuel 13:6; 1 Samuel 14:4; 1 Samuel 23:25; 1 Samuel 24:2; 2 Samuel 21:10; 1 Kings 19:11; 1 Chronicles 11:15; 2 Chronicles 25:12; Nehemiah 9:15; Job 14:18; Job 18:4; Job 19:24; Job 24:8; Job 28:9; Job 28:10; Job 29:6; Job 30:6; Job 39:1; Job 39:28; Psalm 27:5; Psalm 40:2; Psalm 78:15; Psalm 78:16; Psalm 78:20; Psalm 81:16; Psalm 104:18; Psalm 105:41; Psalm 114:8; Proverbs 30:19; Proverbs 30:26; Song of Solomon 2:14; Isaiah 2:10; Isaiah 2:19; Isaiah 2:21; Isaiah 7:19; Isaiah 8:14; Isaiah 10:26; Isaiah 22:16; Isaiah 32:2; Isaiah 33:16; Isaiah 42:11; Isaiah 48:21; Isaiah 51:1; Isaiah 57:5; Jeremiah 4:29; Jeremiah 5:3; Jeremiah 13:4; Jeremiah 16:16; Jeremiah 18:14; Jeremiah 21:13; Jeremiah 23:29; Jeremiah 48:28; Jeremiah 49:16; Jeremiah 51:25; Ezekiel 24:7; Ezekiel 24:8; Ezekiel 26:4; Ezekiel 26:14; Amos 6:12; Obadiah 1:3; Nahum 1:6

That was only the OT and those were all the verses I could find that contained the word “rock”. There is none ascribing this term to anybody else but God or an actual rock.

The NT is even more interesting in the context. As we know the word Peter is masculine… all the “rock” verses that are about Jesus are feminine and most of the others are too. Only Peter is given the masculine form of a rock and one verse in Acts has it (proof that such a male word was used apart from the name).

Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (πέτρᾳ noun, dative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (πέτραι noun, nominative, plural, feminine)

Matthew 27:60
And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. (πέτρᾳ noun, dative, singular, feminine)

Mark 15:46
And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine)

Luke 6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Luke 8:6
And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine)

Acts 27:29
Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day. (τραχεῖς adjective, accusative, plural, masculine; τόπους noun, accusative, plural, masculine)

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine… Jesus Christ is the rock depicted here as seen in the context.)

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine; πέτρα noun, nominative, singular, feminine. The rock is CHRIST!)

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (πέτρα noun, nominative, singular, feminine)

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (πέτρας noun, accusative, plural, feminine)

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (πέτραις noun, dative, plural, feminine)

(Wow, this took forever…)
Jesus Christ is the ROCK, not Peter.

In Him,
Janet
 
Lib_Christian said:
Grace, you said in your post: E. Rite can marry. Latin can’t. And Paul passed along the Latin tradition of celibacy. But Peter was married and I thought he was the rock of the Latin? :confused:
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Lib Christian,
I am going to trust that you are really here to learn.
If so, this will answer your honest question.

CELIBACY OF THE CLERGY
History of Clerical Celibacy
newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

To you,
didn’t St. Paul write his encyclicals to the Church AFTER the time of St. Peter? Do we stop believing after the 4th Gospel, or do we believe everything in the whole of Scripture?
**
In Matthew 19:12, Christ clearly commends those who, “for the sake of the kingdom of God”, have held aloof from the married state, though He adds: “he who can accept it, let him accept it”. St. Paul is even more explicit:
Click to expand...
Code: 
I would that all men were even as myself; but every one hath his proper gift from God .... But I say to the unmarried and to the widows, it is good for them if they so continue, even as I. **
Click to expand...
 
Janet1983 said:
Yes you have provided quite a bit of information brother, and I am grateful you did. As you showed there is a difference between the word Rock and the name Peter.
One is male and one is female.
Looking through the Bible we see that in many instances the word rock is either used to describe an actual rock or to describe God.

God:
Deuteronomy 32:4; Deuteronomy 32:15; Deuteronomy 32:18; Deuteronomy 32:30-31; 1 Samuel 2:2; 2 Samuel 22:2-3; 2 Samuel 22:32; 2 Samuel 22:47; 2 Samuel 23:3; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 18:31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 28:1; Psalm 31:2; Psalm 31:3; Psalm 42:9; Psalm 61:2; Psalm 62:2; Psalm 62:6; Psalm 62:7; Psalm 71:3; Psalm 78:35; Psalm 89:26; Psalm 92:15; Psalm 94:22; Psalm 95:1; Isaiah 17:10

Actual rock:
Exodus 17:6; Exodus 33:21-22; Numbers 20:8-11; Numbers 23:9; Numbers 24:21; Deuteronomy 8:15; Deuteronomy 32:13; Deuteronomy 32:31; Deuteronomy 32:37; Judges 1:36; Judges 6:20-21; Judges 6:26; Judges 7:25; Judges 13:19; Judges 15:8; Judges 15:11; Judges 15:13; Judges 20:45; Judges 20:47; Judges 21:13; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Samuel 13:6; 1 Samuel 14:4; 1 Samuel 23:25; 1 Samuel 24:2; 2 Samuel 21:10; 1 Kings 19:11; 1 Chronicles 11:15; 2 Chronicles 25:12; Nehemiah 9:15; Job 14:18; Job 18:4; Job 19:24; Job 24:8; Job 28:9; Job 28:10; Job 29:6; Job 30:6; Job 39:1; Job 39:28; Psalm 27:5; Psalm 40:2; Psalm 78:15; Psalm 78:16; Psalm 78:20; Psalm 81:16; Psalm 104:18; Psalm 105:41; Psalm 114:8; Proverbs 30:19; Proverbs 30:26; Song of Solomon 2:14; Isaiah 2:10; Isaiah 2:19; Isaiah 2:21; Isaiah 7:19; Isaiah 8:14; Isaiah 10:26; Isaiah 22:16; Isaiah 32:2; Isaiah 33:16; Isaiah 42:11; Isaiah 48:21; Isaiah 51:1; Isaiah 57:5; Jeremiah 4:29; Jeremiah 5:3; Jeremiah 13:4; Jeremiah 16:16; Jeremiah 18:14; Jeremiah 21:13; Jeremiah 23:29; Jeremiah 48:28; Jeremiah 49:16; Jeremiah 51:25; Ezekiel 24:7; Ezekiel 24:8; Ezekiel 26:4; Ezekiel 26:14; Amos 6:12; Obadiah 1:3; Nahum 1:6

That was only the OT and those were all the verses I could find that contained the word “rock”. There is none ascribing this term to anybody else but God or an actual rock.

The NT is even more interesting in the context. As we know the word Peter is masculine… all the “rock” verses that are about Jesus are feminine and most of the others are too. Only Peter is given the masculine form of a rock and one verse in Acts has it (proof that such a male word was used apart from the name).

Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (πέτρᾳ noun, dative, singular, feminine)

Matthew 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (πέτραι noun, nominative, plural, feminine)

Matthew 27:60
And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. (πέτρᾳ noun, dative, singular, feminine)

Mark 15:46
And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine)

Luke 6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Luke 8:6
And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine)

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine)

Acts 27:29
Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day. (τραχεῖς adjective, accusative, plural, masculine; τόπους noun, accusative, plural, masculine)

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (πέτραν noun, accusative, singular, feminine… Jesus Christ is the rock depicted here as seen in the context.)

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (πέτρας noun, genitive, singular, feminine; πέτρα noun, nominative, singular, feminine. The rock is CHRIST!)

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (πέτρα noun, nominative, singular, feminine)

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (πέτρας noun, accusative, plural, feminine)

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (πέτραις noun, dative, plural, feminine)

(Wow, this took forever…)
Jesus Christ is the ROCK, not Peter.

In Him,
Janet
Click to expand...
Dear Janet,
when you cut and paste, you need to cite your source.
 
**Who Was The Rock In Matthew?

Firstly, it should be remembered that the Council of Trent made obligatory on all Romans,“who promise and swear that they will continue in obedience to the Church of Rome,” concerning Holy Scripture,“nor will I ever understand or interpret it, except according to the unanimous consent of the Holy fathers.”**

Regarding the Rock, in matthew 16.

Origen, held that the Rock is every faithful disciple of Christ! He goes on, " But if you think that the whole Church is built by God upon Peter alone, what would you say about John, the Son of Thunder, or each of the apostles? Or shall we venture to say that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against Peter but shall prevail against the other apostles and those that are perfect? Are not the words…‘upon this rock I will build My Church,’ said in the cse of all and each of them?" [Com in Matt

Cyprian: “Certainly the rest of the apostles were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship of dignity and power.”[De Unitate, 4.]

Jerome: But you say that the Church is founded upon Peter although the same thing is done in an other place upon all the apostles and all receive the Kingdom of Heaven and the solidity of the Church is established equally upon all, nevertheless among the twelve one is therefore chosen that by the appointment of a head an occasion of dissension may be taken away!" [Adv Jovianum. 1 26 {Migne} 23.258.]

Cyril of Alexandria.: Calling, I suppose, nothing else the rock, in allusion to his name, but the immovable firm faith of the disciple on which the Church of Christ is founded and established." [De SS Trinitate,dial iv PG 75.865]

S.Hilary: Upon this rock of the confession is the building up of the Church…This faith is the foundation of the Church." De Trinitate vi 36,37, 0. 186-7]

S.Ambrose:" Faith is then the foundation of the Church, for not of the human person of S.Peter but of faith is it said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."[De Incarn v 34.]

Pope Gregory the Great: Establish your faith on the rock of the Church, that is on the confession of the blessed Peter pince of the Apostles." [Ep 4.38. Theodolind. 16, 827.]

Does this help?
 
Janet1983 said:
As you showed there is a difference between the word Rock and the name Peter.
One is male and one is female.
Click to expand...
Dear Janet,
Since you are parsing words without a linguistics degree,

Not male/female… Masculine/Feminine

Isn’t it interesting that the word Church in all romance languages is feminine?
🤷
 
adrift said:
Wow you teach nothing that the Catholic Church wants taught:eek:

Did you mean to say that you do teach only what the Catholic Church wants. At least I hope that is what you meant
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:eek:Of course I meant but what. Do you think I am stupid. I forgot a word:eek:
 
adrift said:
At first I agreed with you but then I reread your statement and I am not sure what you ARE saying.

Tweety is a Catholic but she does not hold to Catholic thought. I think your post illustrates exactly others concerns that she is misleading.
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Sorry. Maybe sometimes what I mean gets misunderstood when I go to type it. What I meant was everyone who professes to follow Catholic teaching must agree Tweety is a Catholic too since that’s what the Churrch teaches.
 
Lib_Christian said:
Sorry. Maybe sometimes what I mean gets misunderstood when I go to type it. What I meant was everyone who professes to follow Catholic teaching must agree Tweety is a Catholic too since that’s what the Churrch teaches.
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Hi Lib.

Tweety has been told here by some of her accusers that she is “not a Catholic” but a Protestant. I know the names of those that have done this (these are folks that seem to stalk her every time she posts).

So it seems to me very ironic that her accusers are not following Catholic teaching either.

Maybe her accusers are not Catholic either.
 
luckyfredsdad said:
**Who Was The Rock In Matthew?

Firstly, it should be remembered that the Council of Trent made obligatory on all Romans,“who promise and swear that they will continue in obedience to the Church of Rome,” concerning Holy Scripture,"nor will I ever understand or interpret it, except according to the unanimous consent of the Holy fathers.**

So before the Council of Trent sola scriptura was practiced in the Church?
Click to expand...
 
Lib_Christian said:
Sorry. Maybe sometimes what I mean gets misunderstood when I go to type it. What I meant was everyone who professes to follow Catholic teaching must agree Tweety is a Catholic too since that’s what the Churrch teaches.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the clarification. If you are in a rush, things can get funny. I took your meaning right but thanks for verifing it.
 
AmateurPianist said:
Hi Lib.

Tweety has been told here by some of her accusers that she is “not a Catholic” but a Protestant. I know the names of those that have done this (these are folks that seem to stalk her every time she posts).

So it seems to me very ironic that her accusers are not following Catholic teaching either.

Maybe her accusers are not Catholic either.
Click to expand...
Thanks again. Hey I never thought of that idea that they are not Catholics either. See the problem is if you do not agree with all they say or the Church professes you are not a Catholic. And you are right everytime I stae w\hat I believe in the same ones are always there to tell and call me unkind things. But remember we are to glory in God when people do this
 
graceandglory said:
Dear Janet,
when you cut and paste, you need to cite your source.
Click to expand...
Dear Grace and Glory…
My source is the King James Version of the Bible. You can find it here: biblegateway.com
I also copied the Greek words as they appear in Scripture as my keyboard does not have the capability of such… Other than that I wrote it all myself and spend about 2 hours compiling it.
I also used my Greek and English Interlinear New Testament… You can get that at Zondervan, but I only used it for comparisons…
 
AmateurPianist said:
Hi Lib.

Tweety has been told here by some of her accusers that she is “not a Catholic” but a Protestant. I know the names of those that have done this (these are folks that seem to stalk her every time she posts).

So it seems to me very ironic that her accusers are not following Catholic teaching either.

Maybe her accusers are not Catholic either.
Click to expand...
Hi AP, 🤷 well if they were baptized Catholic though maybe just not following all of the teaching 😉
 
graceandglory said:
Isn’t it interesting that the word Church in all romance languages is feminine?
🤷
Click to expand...
That does not explain the problem with the verse… and by the way… I know the terms… I even used them with the words… My native language has cases too…
 
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