Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prodigal_Son1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That is not what I am saying. I know that Catholics have faith in Jesus. Jesus never made a mistake and earthly leaders have and do.
Sure, earthly leaders may make mistakes, but the Catholic Church has never taught doctrinal error and the pope has never formally declared doctrinal error ex cathedra.

This distinction seems difficult for many to grasp or accept.
 
No, I am saying just the opposite and the Rock is revelation by the Holy Ghost. Not Peter!
You have read the original Aramaic and/or Greek, correct? You of course know something always gets lost in translation, right? Just checking. Thanks
 
No, I am saying just the opposite and the Rock is revelation by the Holy Ghost. Not Peter!
I understand what you’re saying, but that is not what Jesus said. Let’s review:

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-19)
  1. Peter’s understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own. Instead, God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon this humble fisherman. Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way and declared, “Blessed are you.” The Father had blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son.
  2. Jesus gave him the name, “Kepha”, an Aramaic word that means “rock”. In the original, the passage would read, “You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus also announces the establishment of His Church, and clearly delineates Kepha as its leader. Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “Kepha” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “petra” or “petros”. “Petra” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “petros”. Petros is more suitable for a man. Therefore, from “petros” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock? Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
  3. The Church to be built was not of human origin. Jesus did not say, “You are Peter, and upon this rock you must build a church.” He said, “I will build my church.” Inaugurated by the Father, built by the Son and led by the Holy Spirit, the Church is a human institution of divine origin.
  4. For this reason, “the gates of Hell will not overcome” the Church, and for over 2,000 years the Church, lead by the Apostolic Successors of Peter, has faithfully borne witness to the gospel.
  5. Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads, "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Isaiah 22:22) In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
  6. Finally, Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this passage mean? There are two possible interpretations. First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth must of necessity be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put himself in the impossible situation of affirming that which is not true. A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
 
Ultimately who exactly is the Catholic Church saying it is built on?

Matthew 18

18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Jesus is speaking to all the disciples here. Do Catholics believe all have just been given the Keys or in some way is it just Peter who still holds the Keys whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven?

Does the Catholic Church say “our foundation is Peter”? My Church says that our foundation is Jesus Christ and that he is “Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Read
Isaiah 28
16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Does the Catholic Church say this rock is Peter?

1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.” 7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
“A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Is Peter calling himself the rock the Church is built on?
 
Ultimately who exactly is the Catholic Church saying it is built on?

Matthew 18

18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Jesus is speaking to all the disciples here. Do Catholics believe all have just been given the Keys or in some way is it just Peter who still holds the Keys whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven?

Does the Catholic Church say “our foundation is Peter”? My Church says that our foundation is Jesus Christ and that he is “Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Read
Isaiah 28
16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Does the Catholic Church say this rock is Peter?

1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.” 7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
“A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Is Peter calling himself the rock the Church is built on?
It’s been stated several times now, but I’m willing to repeat it for you. The cornerstone is Christ, the rock ‘foundation’ is Peter, and the Apostles, A building cannot stand without a cornerstone.

If you’d read carefully through this thread, you’d see it’s been explained…a couple of times.
 
Does the Catholic Church say this rock is Peter?
It depends upon the context.

Many non-Catholics object to the idea that Peter was the rock upon which Jesus promised to build the Church, and they offer various alternative interpretations of the rock as being Jesus himself, Peter’s confession of faith, and the curious hybrid Peter and his confession. To support their denial of Jesus’ establishment of Peter as the head of the Church, non-Catholics frequently cite other scripture passages in which Jesus is called the “chief cornerstone” and the apostles collectively being described as foundation stones. These arguments are based upon a misunderstanding of the use of metaphors within the pages of scripture. Author Stephen Ray, himself a former Evangelical and convert to Catholicism, addressed this problem in his book, Upon This Rock:

“In this metaphorical description, Jesus himself could not be the foundation, because in this illustration he presents himself as the builder. The following is very important. In Scripture Jesus is variously depicted as the foundation (1 Cor. 3:11), the builder (Mt. 16:18), the cornerstone (Acts 4:11), and the temple itself (Rev. 21:22). We also see the apostles and/or believers as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, Rev. 21:14), the builders (1 Cor. 3:10), the stones, lithos, not petra (1 Pet. 2:5), the building (1 Cor. 3:9), and the temple (Eph. 2:21). Many illustrations are used to explain various aspects of the Church. One cannot simply substitute one descriptive figure of speech for another in any one illustration thereby mixing metaphors. It does great violence to the textual illustration itself and is a good example of roughshod “proof-texting”, wrongly “dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). The Bible does not set up a dichotomy—either Jesus or Peter; rather, it presents us with both Jesus and Peter as foundation stones. Jesus is establishing the man who will be the focal point of unity within the Church, the foundation. He who builds upon sand has a structure that crumbles (Mt. 7:24-27). Jesus builds his Church upon the rock of his choice, and, by his protection, the Church has stood the test of time. The powers of hell have failed to destroy or corrupt her” (Stephen Ray, Upon this Rock, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999], 36.)

In this same book, Ray also cites Protestant George Salmon, author of The Infallibility of the Church which he wrote to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the matter of metaphorical usage, Salmon wrote at length:

“It is undoubtedly the doctrine of Scripture that Christ is the only foundation [of the Church]: “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Yet we must remember that the same metaphor may be used to illustrate different truths, and so, according to circumstances, may have different significations. The same Paul who has called Christ the only foundation, tells his Ephesian converts (2:20):—“Ye are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.” And in like manner we read (Rev. 21:14):—“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.” How is it that there can be no other foundation but Christ, and yet that the Apostles are spoken of as foundations? Plainly, because the metaphor is used with different applications. Christ alone is that foundation, from being joined to which the whole building of the Church derives its unity and stability, and gains strength to defy all the assaults of hell. But, in the same manner as any human institution is said to be founded by those men to whom it owes its origin, so we may call those men the foundation of the Church whom God honoured by using them as His instruments in the establishment of it; who were themselves laid as the first living stones in that holy temple, and on whom the other stones of that temple were laid; for it was on their testimony that others received the truth, so that our faith rests on theirs; and (humanly speaking) it is because they believed that we believe. So, again, in like manner, we are forbidden to call anyone on earth our Father, “for one is our Father which is in heaven.” And yet, in another sense, Paul did not scruple to call himself the spiritual father of those whom he had begotten in the Gospel. You see, then, that the fact that Christ is called the rock, and that on Him the Church is built, is no hindrance to Peter’s also being, in a different sense, called rock, and being said to be the foundation of the Church; so that I consider there is no ground for the fear entertained by some, in ancient and in modern times, that, by applying the words personally to Peter, we should infringe on the honour due to Christ alone.” (George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church [London: John Murray, 1914], 338-339).
 
Sure, earthly leaders may make mistakes, but the Catholic Church has never taught doctrinal error and the pope has never formally declared doctrinal error ex cathedra.

This distinction seems difficult for many to grasp or accept.
I am so fascinated by this claim or doctrine; you have a very fascinating religion. I have learned a lot of interesting things about Catholicism so far.
 
I understand what you’re saying, but that is not what Jesus said. Let’s review:

cut
  1. Peter’s understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own. Instead, God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon this humble fisherman. Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way and declared, “Blessed are you.” The Father had blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son.
  2. Jesus gave him the name, “Kepha”, an Aramaic word that means “rock”. In the original, the passage would read, “You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus also announces the establishment of His Church, and clearly delineates Kepha as its leader. Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “Kepha” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “petra” or “petros”. “Petra” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “petros”. Petros is more suitable for a man. Therefore, from “petros” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock? Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
  3. The Church to be built was not of human origin. Jesus did not say, “You are Peter, and upon this rock you must build a church.” He said, “I will build my church.” Inaugurated by the Father, built by the Son and led by the Holy Spirit, the Church is a human institution of divine origin.
  4. For this reason, “the gates of Hell will not overcome” the Church, and for over 2,000 years the Church, lead by the Apostolic Successors of Peter, has faithfully borne witness to the gospel.
  5. Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads, "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Isaiah 22:22) In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
  6. Finally, Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this passage mean? There are two possible interpretations. First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth must of necessity be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put himself in the impossible situation of affirming that which is not true. A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
This is getting even more fascinating; if I see this correctly you are stating the Catholic church is built upon Peter and Jesus and Jesus being primary?

You may want to consider studying Matthew 18; you are probably aware that it speaks more on the topic and application of loosing and binding and speaks to all Christians and the “good news”. Chapter 18 is a sermon to a group of disciples or followers; not just the Apostles.

I’m curious to know, what does your church teach about who has the responsibility to carry out the “Great Commission”.

I would like to see that Aramaic version of the NT and see how much confusion that would add to the rest of the NT.

How many keys does the Pope wield on his garments; if I recall it is two? Is that how many keys there are to heaven in the Catholic religion?
 
=Masters Servant;?
I would like to see that Aramaic version of the NT and see how much confusion that would add to the rest of the NT]
Great my friend, please advise have you read the original Aramaic and Greek? Please do tell.
 
Sure, earthly leaders may make mistakes, but the Catholic Church has never taught doctrinal error and the pope has never formally declared doctrinal error ex cathedra.

This distinction seems difficult for many to grasp or accept.
Particularly Christians who have been indoctrinated in Fundamentalist Protestant thought and theology. Even after wanting to move on to a deeper spirituality they seem to have dificulty in shaking loose of much of the former influence. May God continue to shed his light on the conplete Truth .:)Carlan
 
Great my friend, please advise have you read the original Aramaic and Greek? Please do tell.
I do not think an Aramaic NT manuscript exists; it was given in Greek by God the Holy Spirit. This is the point, if you are going to translate part of the Bible using Aramaic, then what would happen to the rest of the NT; it would be quite the translation and interpretation challenge mess.

i think you missed the point of the previous post because your question is not w/in the context of my point.
 
What do you want explained?
tweetymom,

It appears you are avoiding the discussion. I quoted the post you didn’t respond too with your thoughts and answers. Please see post #564 and provide your point of view on my questions and thoughts.
 
Peters statment was his faith and that is what a Chuch is built on. Not on Peter personally. We are all Chjrist’s church, our faith in Him. If you don’t get it sorry. Cannot explain it any clearer. I am not hear to argue just stating what holds true.
Why is it that Christ cannot build His Church where he chooses… on Peter (Cephas) the Rock. Are you saying that despite what Jesus clearly tells Peter (i.e. you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church) it cannot be done? It seems you are approaching this passage with your own presumption that it cannot mean what the language clearly shows… that Peter is the rock on which Jesus will build His Church; not Peter’s faith; not a personal confession of faith, but Simon, who Jesus re-named Cephas (Rock).

Peace,
Robert
 
I do not think an Aramaic NT manuscript exists; it was given in Greek by God the Holy Spirit. This is the point, if you are going to translate part of the Bible using Aramaic, then what would happen to the rest of the NT; it would be quite the translation and interpretation challenge mess.

i think you missed the point of the previous post because your question is not w/in the context of my point.
Hello Masters Servant,

Before we can discuss ‘interpretations’ I kindly ask that you provide the scripture and verse teaching us to interpret scriptures for ourselves?

There are thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines, all based on someone’s private interpretation and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t understand how the Holy Spirit can give different truths and all be the truth given to us by God.
 
Hello Masters Servant,

Before we can discuss ‘interpretations’ I kindly ask that you provide the scripture and verse teaching us to interpret scriptures for ourselves?

There are thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines, all based on someone’s private interpretation and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t understand how the Holy Spirit can give different truths and all be the truth given to us by God.
My understanding of Scripture is that it is the work of the Holy Spirit for those that are saved, or clothed in Christ righteousness. The Holy Spirit is also call “the Spirit of Truth”. When something basic as the gospel, which I consider the most important doctrine in all of Scripture, is uniform of the people I know as Christians. Some of other doctrines people have a difficult time with and a variety of views are expressed. One example that comes to mind is the “catching away of the church”, some hold it occurs before the tribulation, some say during and some say after and some say not at all.
It is not a salvation teaching, so although all of Gods Word is important, some things not everyone will agree on.

To answer your question the Apostles Peter gives the answer.
2 Peter 1:
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: 18 and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 And we have the word of prophecy [made] more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

John 14
15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. **21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and **will manifest myself unto him.

If you read the Psalms, God does not change, for example Psalm 86:11-12 Teach me thy way, O Jehovah; I will walk in thy truth: Unite my heart to fear thy name. 12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart; And I will glorify thy name for evermore.

Psalm 25:5
Guide me in thy truth, and teach me; For thou art the God of my salvation; For thee do I wait all the day.

This is a primary role of the Holy Spirit in all ages.

Final thought, just as the Bible tells us that only a few are being saved; therfore it agrees that only a few who name the name of Jesus are giving lipservice and do not have the Spirit of Truth abiding in them.
 
My understanding of Scripture is that it is the work of the Holy Spirit for those that are saved, or clothed in Christ righteousness. The Holy Spirit is also call “the Spirit of Truth”. When something basic as the gospel, which I consider the most important doctrine in all of Scripture, is uniform of the people I know as Christians. Some of other doctrines people have a difficult time with and a variety of views are expressed. One example that comes to mind is the “catching away of the church”, some hold it occurs before the tribulation, some say during and some say after and some say not at all.
It is not a salvation teaching, so although all of Gods Word is important, some things not everyone will agree on.

To answer your question the Apostles Peter gives the answer.
2 Peter 1:
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: 18 and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 And we have the word of prophecy [made] more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

John 14
15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. **21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and **will manifest myself unto him.

If you read the Psalms, God does not change, for example Psalm 86:11-12 Teach me thy way, O Jehovah; I will walk in thy truth: Unite my heart to fear thy name. 12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart; And I will glorify thy name for evermore.

Psalm 25:5
Guide me in thy truth, and teach me; For thou art the God of my salvation; For thee do I wait all the day.

This is a primary role of the Holy Spirit in all ages.

Final thought, just as the Bible tells us that only a few are being saved; therfore it agrees that only a few who name the name of Jesus are giving lipservice and do not have the Spirit of Truth abiding in them.
I suggest you read back through this thread. None of the verses you provide are supporting private interpretation of scriptures. Not everytime the Bible mentions God’s word/truth is it speaking of scriptures, it speaks of the spoken word and then there are times it qualifies that with the word being spoken through the authority/men of the Church/Temple. I myself have posted scriptural arguments showing, even in Old Testament times, the people were instructed on scriptures and had to have them explained to them. Nehemiah 8

You attempt to make an argument that many are not saved and the Holy Spirit will guide those in their interpretation. There are thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines/teachings, all based on someone’s private interpretation and ALL claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. Did God leave everyone to discern which one is telling His truth? Or, does the Holy Spirit give different truths? Are you insinuating the people of the Catholic Church are not saved and are receiving an incorrect interpretation?

I say the answer is no to all three. He gave us a pillar and ground of truth, that even the manifold wisdom of God could be made known through and that’s the Church.

.
 
  1. Peter’s understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own. Instead, God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon this humble fisherman. Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way and declared, “Blessed are you.” The Father had blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son.
  2. Jesus gave him the name, “Kepha”, an Aramaic word that means “rock”. In the original, the passage would read, “You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus also announces the establishment of His Church, and clearly delineates Kepha as its leader. Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “Kepha” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “petra” or “petros”. “Petra” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “petros”. Petros is more suitable for a man. Therefore, from “petros” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock? Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
  3. The Church to be built was not of human origin. Jesus did not say, “You are Peter, and upon this rock you must build a church.” He said, “I will build my church.” Inaugurated by the Father, built by the Son and led by the Holy Spirit, the Church is a human institution of divine origin.
  4. For this reason, “the gates of Hell will not overcome” the Church, and for over 2,000 years the Church, lead by the Apostolic Successors of Peter, has faithfully borne witness to the gospel.
  5. Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads, "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Isaiah 22:22) In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
  6. Finally, Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this passage mean? There are two possible interpretations. First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth must of necessity be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put himself in the impossible situation of affirming that which is not true. A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
WOWI seriously got the chills after reading this post !

I believe now more than ever that Peter is the Rock.

If Jesus reckognized that God was giving Peter infallible knowledge, even though Peter made mistakes, then this proves that the Church today is capable of infallible knowledge, even though it makes mistakes. 👍

God is good ! :bowdown:
 
A ridiculous statement: Eve, first mother, was beguiled into believing a lie. Adam, first father, disobeyed and plunged the creation into sin and death–not sure exactly why–surely unbelief. Israel, chosen of God, built a golden calf to worship not long after Moses went to Mt. Sinai. Paul rebuked Peter (The Rock??) for believing and preaching a lie–this was after Mt.16:18. Satan is a liar from the beginning–yet it is no wonder, he has become an angel of light. Some folks are given over to strong delusion–they believe a lie.

Yes, even the chosen have been known to believe a lie. Now What?

It is in The Book. See also: The Lamb’s Book of Life

Peace,

James Least
I see… But I disagree that it is the catholic church who is delusional.

If it took 1500 years for the “real” truth to be revealed, where and why did the Church go wrong ? It seems to me like politics were mixed up in the Church, which actually takes nothing away from the truth of the doctrines… It was still the holy church, but with a twist… If the Church were infiltrated or influenced by bad people, why would anyone think that the doctrines were “failed” ??? The devil may have had a part in it all, but nothing more than ruining the reputation of the Church -which continues today… The doctrines however always have been and still are infallible. The Truth has ALWAYS been at the core.

In saying that satan is an angel of light (as much as this may be true) however, gives no choice as to which truths are the lies, and which are real, but IMHO, satan will always try to make people LESS obedient… So removing Church sacraments, and traditions would be one of his top priorities. Installing something more tolerant to sin would come next, and then finally -after the faith of most has been replaced with tolerance and acceptance of known evil, satan will attempt to reinstall a new faith in all that is EVIL.

But all in a way that seems cozy, and fair… :eek:
 
**Why is it so difficult for all the non-Catholics on this thread to understand and accept that Peter is the rock on which Jesus, as the cornerstone, built His Church?

Why can’t you understand that He was not speaking in parables, allegorically, or symbolically?

Why do you all insist on distorting and skewing His words with what you think He said and meant?

Why are you telling Jesus that He did not mean to say what He did say and that He should say what you want Him to say? Stop putting the wrong spin on His words. Clear your minds and reject you preconceived thoughts and prejudices. Pray to the Holy Spirit for a clear understanding and open your mind to Him. He will tell you and explain exactly what Jesus said and meant. If you do, then all will be very clear and you will all know the truth.
**

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top