Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[Lib_Christian]

Lapey, tweetie makes a good pt. It’s not so much I want the Church to change for me either. I’d prefer thinking of it as changing for Christ as I see Him in Scripture. That’s why I presented some of His words in my last post. But that’s me and you asked. We can agree to disagree. But while I’m talkin about it, there’s one more thing I could have added. I wouldn’t mind a bit more concern about who the false teachers are in the hierarchy and how we know them by their fruits. I almost hate to bring it up because the Lord knows it is a sore subject to many. But a little more understanding about how it might be difficult for some to think of the hierarchy who cover up scandal as true shepherds of His flock. Anyway I’m just responding to your questions of me before anyone says anything. So carry on with the topic. But again hope I’ve been helpful. God bless!

 

[MacDaddy]

Hello MacD, Here is Catholic read on it.

PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

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Let’s get down to it. You want to know where the real church is? You want to know why catholics believe that the catholic church is the one true church? Well let’s get started with this and stick to this topic.
First
We start with the keys. Keys in the bible are a symbol of Authority. The jews of the old testament new this extremely well.
The expression “power of the keys” is derived from Christ’s words to St. Peter (in Matthew 16:19). The promise there made finds its explanation in Isaiah 22, in which “the key of the house of David” is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of plenary authority in the Kingdom of Juda. Christ by employing this expression clearly designed to signify his intention to confer on St. Peter the supreme authority over His Church. This is very important to understand the meaning of the keys, so read Isaiah 22 for reference and study the parallel between Isaiah and Matthew. Jesus being a Jew new exactly what he was doing when he choose to parallel Isaiah and Matthew.
Now the keys go hand in hand with the changing of Simons name to the Rock.
The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter “rock”: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).

Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else.

Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modifed to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons.

These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: “You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church.”

The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following passages show.
Christ left the adoption of a name for His Church to those whom he
commissioned to teach all nations. Christ called the spiritual society
He established, “My Church” (Mt. xvi, 18), “the Church” (Mt. xviii, 17).
In order to have a distinction between the Church and the Synagogue and
to have a distinguishing name from those embracing Judaic and Gnostic
errors we find St. Ignatius (50-107 A.D.) using the Greek word
“Katholicos” (universal) to describe the universality of the Church
established by Christ. St. Ignatius was appointed Bishop of Antioch by
St.Peter, the Bishop of Rome. It is in his writtings that we find the
word Catholic used for the first time. St. Augustine, when speaking
about the Church of Christ, calls it the Catholic Church 240 times in
his writings.
Don’t forget that St. Ignatius was taught and ordained by John, one of the original 12 and the author of revelation and the Gospel of John.
Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.

Carlan__________________

Thank you for the Catholic explanation Carlan. I appreciate that and have come across some of the same material in my readings in the past two days. I had asked someone to send me a email with a Amazon link for a copy of the catechism. I specifically requested a version that the most devout would prefer. I am assuming that they may come in different versions like the Bible does, but that might be incorrect, but I think you get the point. So if you think you know what i am looking for, then perhaps you or someone could direct me. Thanks

 

[tweetymom]

Lapey, tweetie makes a good pt. It’s not so much I want the Church to change for me either. I’d prefer thinking of it as changing for Christ as I see Him in Scripture. That’s why I presented some of His words in my last post. But that’s me and you asked. We can agree to disagree. But while I’m talkin about it, there’s one more thing I could have added. I wouldn’t mind a bit more concern about who the false teachers are in the hierarchy and how we know them by their fruits. I almost hate to bring it up because the Lord knows it is a sore subject to many. But a little more understanding about how it might be difficult for some to think of the hierarchy who cover up scandal as true shepherds of His flock. Anyway I’m just responding to your questions of me before anyone says anything. So carry on with the topic. But again hope I’ve been helpful. God bless!

Good post and you are right God Bless

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Thank you for the Catholic explanation Carlan. I appreciate that and have come across some of the same material in my readings in the past two days. I had asked someone to send me a email with a Amazon link for a copy of the catechism. I specifically requested a version that the most devout would prefer. I am assuming that they may come in different versions like the Bible does, but that might be incorrect, but I think you get the point. So if you think you know what i am looking for, then perhaps you or someone could direct me. Thanks

See Amazon First two items. I recommend the Hard cover; the paperback lacks some useful indexes and tends to fall apart. [Note that second edition is does not have major changes from the original. I have stuck with my copy of the original. Didn’t think the differences were worth buying another one.]

Item 10. United States Catholic Catechism for Adults is a summary by the U.S. Bishops. Some prefer it as simpler than the original catechism. I haven’t used it.

Some prefer Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church by Joseph Ratzinger as simpler. Again I haven’t used it.

You can find the Catechism on line. Go to the index and click on the sections you want to read.

 

[Carlan]

Thank you for the Catholic explanation Carlan. I appreciate that and have come across some of the same material in my readings in the past two days. I had asked someone to send me a email with a Amazon link for a copy of the catechism. I specifically requested a version that the most devout would prefer. I am assuming that they may come in different versions like the Bible does, but that might be incorrect, but I think you get the point. So if you think you know what i am looking for, then perhaps you or someone could direct me. Thanks

You are welcome, There is a good on line version. Excellent!

scborromeo.org/apol.ht
Hit the Faith box on the home page:thumbsup:Carlan

 

[Worthy5]

The Pope is the servant of the people, the servant of the servants of God. He is working FOR us, and we listen as he is the one who can infallibly give doctrines at certain times, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Would you have our clergymen not give definitive answers about the faith? That would create many splits and schisms within the church and… we’d all be Protestant!

Excellent point.

 

[Lapey]

Good post and you are right God Bless

Do you two actually cheer each other on? “oh what a great post”

Blah Blah Blah, you two say nothing new, same old song and dance around truth. The discussion is going nowhere. Tweety all you say is Jesus is my rock, and we all know this to be true, but the scripture the op brought up and his original post was about Peter.

And Lib, you have issues with hierarchy, we get it but you need to let go of the sex offence issues as this can be found in all churches you just want to repeat Catholic offences.

Tweety, in my opinion and the Church’s opinion birth control is sin. God wants to be in control of all of your life not just part. Birth control takes God out of the most intimate time and situation within a marriage. Also with the pill, there are times when the pill does not prevent conception; do you know what happens then? That’s right the pill prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall which causes an abortion. Abortion is intrinsically evil, that means it is never acceptable, never.

How am I too conservative? You two have not answered, only smugly blew me off as one of those Catlicks.

Please tell me what is too conservative???

 

[MacDaddy]

See Amazon First two items. I recommend the Hard cover; the paperback lacks some useful indexes and tends to fall apart. [Note that second edition is does not have major changes from the original. I have stuck with my copy of the original. Didn’t think the differences were worth buying another one.]

Item 10. United States Catholic Catechism for Adults is a summary by the U.S. Bishops. Some prefer it as simpler than the original catechism. I haven’t used it.

Some prefer Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church by Joseph Ratzinger as simpler. Again I haven’t used it.

You can find the Catechism on line. Go to the index and click on the sections you want to read.

Hey thanks for the response; I am going to order the first suggestion in the hard back edition; not very expensive, thank God.

I have been to the Vatican website when I typed in catechism of the catholic church and that was one of the first results. actually not too hard to read but my highlighter doesn’t work very well on it…lol

 

[MacDaddy]

You are welcome, There is a good on line version. Excellent!

scborromeo.org/apol.ht
Hit the Faith box on the home page:thumbsup:Carlan

Thanks again and Joe gave me some Amazon links and i am getting ready to order; I’m thinking if there are some other book now that I would like to have.

Again thanks and i’ll let you know when it arrives if I remember or if you remember to ask.

 

[guanophore]

Who is the Rock “petra” of offense? Peter or Jesus? Scripture will always verify itself and this is no exception. My God is my Rock “petra”.

They are not separated, Mac. The statement of faith given by the Father to Simon son of Jonah is a sure and stable Rock. Jesus is also THE Rock, the cornerstone. Jesus grafted Simon bar Jonah into Himself, making him part of the foundation.

I think you will find that everywhere God renames someone, He does so to show a change of identity and mission.

Jesus renamed Simon bar Jonah for an important reason.

 

[guanophore]

Birth control is not a sin!

This is one of those anti-Catholic posts I was telling you about, Tweety.

In this area, you have failed to conform your conscience to the Apostolic Teaching preserved in the Catholic Church.

It is a good thing Mary was not suffering from this unreceptive attitude toward life.

 

[Lib_Christian]

Do you two actually cheer each other on? “oh what a great post”

Blah Blah Blah, you two say nothing new, same old song and dance around truth. The discussion is going nowhere. Tweety all you say is Jesus is my rock, and we all know this to be true, but the scripture the op brought up and his original post was about Peter.

And Lib, you have issues with hierarchy, we get it but you need to let go of the sex offence issues as this can be found in all churches you just want to repeat Catholic offences.

Tweety, in my opinion and the Church’s opinion birth control is sin. God wants to be in control of all of your life not just part. Birth control takes God out of the most intimate time and situation within a marriage. Also with the pill, there are times when the pill does not prevent conception; do you know what happens then? That’s right the pill prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall which causes an abortion. Abortion is intrinsically evil, that means it is never acceptable, never.

How am I too conservative? You two have not answered, only smugly blew me off as one of those Catlicks.

Please tell me what is too conservative???

Happy New Year Everyone!

Hi Lapey. What is a Catlick? I must be uninformed on that one! Honestly I’ve never heard that term used so I could not have been smugly blowing you off as one. And this is totally off the op’s topic. But since you mentioned it. Allow me to respond. Hopefully you won’t feel the need to say blah blah blah but if you do that’s ok. I speak only for myself here and not Tweety. I have no idea Tweety’s views on this. We can disagree but if a mother is going to lose her life if she carries to full term, I can not yet in my good conscience tell her she has to play martyr, and NEVER have the free will to painfully decide to have an abortion and instead have to choose to give up her life. I totally understand your pt. You may not believe me. But I’ve wrestled with this issue greatly. You’d be surprised how many pro choice ppl, Catholic and not, are not pro abortion. There is a difference. I know it is difficult for many Catholics to understand this. But pro choice deals with the law of the land in a pluralistic society made up of many faiths and beliefs on this difficult issue. I know many Catholics who have no qualms taking life in the case of capital punishment and disguise it as innocent vs not. But I’m not gonna play God and when to me Jesus speaks to me in Matt about having done away with an eye for an eye. But this abortion issue deals with many things. It’s not as simple to me as capital punishment when we are dealing with human beings after they have obviously been born. One’s belief about conception, when human life begins, when the soul enters the body, viabilty. A free society wrestles with how to form a law taking all of these things and more into consideration What if someone disagrees with you and I? We are supposed to force Catholic teaching onto them on this very gutwrenching decision? Do you believe women do not agonize over this? Consult their doctors? Pray to God as they wrestle with their decision? If I were a woman I don’t believe now I personally would ever have an abortion. But at the same time my own conscience after **a lot **of prayer and contemplation has yet to allow me to say a woman can NEVER have an abortion unless I were walking in her shoes which I’m not. And then we have the problem of what to do with the mother if she is committing murder by her decision. But I don’t hear many Catholics being willing to take the next step and saying the mother should be put in prison for life. And not every Christian faith agrees with the Catholic Church. Let us say there was a faith preaching something you disagree with. Would you want that faith’s belief to be forced upon all? I wouldn’t.

I know this was off topic but since you mentioned it I wanted to respond to your post. We should allow the others to get back on topic but again I hope you have a most blessed new year!

 

[Reuben_J]

Sorry but Peters faith in Jesus is the rock. Jesus is my rock, not peter

You are reading into something that is not there. Nowhere faith is mentioned in the verse. If you have to interpret that verse, the rock has to be Peter. Jesus is not referencing to Peter’s faith but Peter as a person. Of course as a person, his faith is part of him but reading the verse strictly, the rock was in reference to Peter.

Again, of course we should have the faith of Peter who knew Jesus for what he is. That faith is something we should ask for; which is given for those who ask.

I am amazed how you interpret this verse and it is certainly a leap for you to come to the conclusion that the rock was meant to be Peter’s faith and overlook the obvious that it should mean Peter himself.

God bless.

 

[Lapey]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Hi Lapey. What is a Catlick?

I know this was off topic but since you mentioned it I wanted to respond to your post. We should allow the others to get back on topic but again I hope you have a most blessed new year!

You preach the gospel of society, not of Jesus Christ. Although I didn’t specifically bring up abortion to you as a single topic, it was brought up as a group of topics because you made the statement about the Church becoming too conservative. My post that you responded to, this part in particular, was a response to tweety not you. It was a response to her, “birth control is not a sin” nonsense.

“Catlick” is a slang pronunciation of Catholic in the south used by some protestants.

I tried guiding us back to the op’s original topic but all we get is, “it’s Peter’s faith that is the rock.” Even though 1500 years of tradition and scholars and theologians agreed that Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter, the rock, the new age saying that’s not what happened. That’s why I gave the blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard it over and over again. And when an honest discussion about it is attempted people with similar beliefs like you and tweety come here and say what you have been taught, without regaurd for anything else, all you know is you are right and the Catholic Church is wrong, because you are more enlightened than us.

Formation of conscience is the key, proper formation that is. Seek out formation and education, look for moral theology courses in you area, you will be amazed at what you find to be fact, but not according to society, but God. Which is more important?

There is enough, in fact more than enough, evidence in scripture to define without a doubt that Matthew 16:18 in fact is Jesus stating to Peter that Peter is the rock that the church of Jesus Christ is built. There is more than enough evidence to show that the Church has been passed on to us, the Catholic Church in communion with the Latin Rite. You just refuse to see this, and that is sad.

You bring up some good points about Catholics who do not agree with the Church, I was one of then. It was when I listened to the world that I strayed; I used to be pro-choice, as you claim to be. No not in favor of abortion but reluctant to tell someone else they couldn’t have one. Well I figured out the truth when I started working in youth ministry.

Do you have any idea how many young girls, 13 to 18 have their lived totally crushed because people like me and you tell them it’s their choice? Wouldn’t it be better that they get people like me now who work with young girls and boys to openly teach what sex is and about, within it’s holy context that is, so that there are more virgins getting married? As I grew up no one ever told me what John Paul II teaches today in Theology of the Body, and I still suffer some of the temporal punishments from my past transgressions.

I trust what Jesus did that day, and I trust what He does within His Church today, and I am on the side of what is moral according to His teachings. If you are on the other side of His teachings, you cannot be His follower. Remember the gate to the kingdom is very narrow, and the gate to the other side is wide.

PS. I wish you and yours a great and happy New Year as well!

 

[freedomwriter]

Very good point onenow1. He certainly was speaking to His Church when He stated He’d be with them until the consummation of the world, knowing that all Apostles would eventually die and not be here at the consummation.

Is this the same Peter that Jesus said “Get behind me Satan” and the one that denied Christ 3 times. If it is what kind of foundation was Christ building.

 

[Lapey]

Is this the same Peter that Jesus said “Get behind me Satan” and the one that denied Christ 3 times. If it is what kind of foundation was Christ building.

A very solid one…read the end of John’s Gospel, who did Jesus ask to feed His sheep three times? There is a reason Peter is singled out more times than any other apostle in the New Testament, because he was chosen to be the leader among equals. Jesus chose him, not the Church.

 

[MacDaddy]

They are not separated, Mac. The statement of faith given by the Father to Simon son of Jonah is a sure and stable Rock. Jesus is also THE Rock, the cornerstone. Jesus grafted Simon bar Jonah into Himself, making him part of the foundation.

I think you will find that everywhere God renames someone, He does so to show a change of identity and mission.

Jesus renamed Simon bar Jonah for an important reason.

Correct, Peter went from a fisherman to a “fisher of men”. One of 12 stones, peter being the leader of the group to coordinate the mission. No one, none of the other Apostles, not Jesus, not anyone else thought Peter was any greater than any other of the Apostles. Otherwise, there would not have been any questions about who would be the greatest, “boys don’t you remember the other day; I, Jesus, designated Peter as the greatest among you”. Why didn’t Jesus use that opportunity or any other opportunity to set the record straight?

Don’t forget, there are 12 foundation stones in the New Heaven as mentioned in Revelation and Peters is not any larger or more distinct than the others. By the way, Simon, means Peter.

 

[Reuben_J]

Correct, Peter went from a fisherman to a “fisher of men”. One of 12 stones, peter being the leader of the group to coordinate the mission. No one, none of the other Apostles, not Jesus, not anyone else thought Peter was any greater than any other of the Apostles. Otherwise, there would not have been any questions about who would be the greatest, “boys don’t you remember the other day; I, Jesus, designated Peter as the greatest among you”. Why didn’t Jesus use that opportunity or any other opportunity to set the record straight?

When does the question of Peter being greater than anyone comes in here, a question asked to denote who would be sitting next to God, who would be in heaven. It was not a question of leadership definitely.

Even if we were to concede that the question was about leadership, which definitely was not, Peter was still different from the rest of the apostles by virtue of the changing of his name and the natural leadership position he took after the resurrection. He was given the key to the Kingdom, to loose and to bound, and to feed the sheep. Besides of course being the rock upon which the Lord’s church is built.

 

[MacDaddy]

When does the question of Peter being greater than anyone comes in here, a question asked to denote who would be sitting next to God, who would be in heaven. It was not a question of leadership definitely.

Peter was still different from the rest of the apostles by virtue of the changing of his name and the natural leadership position he took after the resurrection. He was given the key to the Kingdom, to loose and to bound, and to feed the sheep. Besides of course being the rock upon which the Lord’s church is built.

That is not what my Bible says. They were all given a key to the Kingdom of Heaven and they all had the message called the Gospel that was able to loose and to bind to permit or forbid the entrance to Heaven, which is through Christ Jesus, just as Peter testified. How obvious is that? See Mathew 18 is you don’t believe that loose & bind applies to all true disciples of Christ. Jesus is the Petra and Peter is the petro “small stone” and the rest of us are “small living stones” unless you not part of the Kingdom. Simon means Peter.

 

[Reuben_J]

that is not what my Bible says. They were all give a key to the Kingdom of Heaven and they all had the message that was able to loose and to bind to permit or forbid and it applies to the Gospel, not to the messenger. How obvious is that? See Mathew 18 is you don’t believe that loose & Bind applies to all true disciples of Christ. Jesus is the Petra and Peter is the “small stone” and the rest of us are “small living stones” unless you not part of the Kingdom.

I don’t know what Bible you have but even from a Protestant translation, Jesus was speaking to and addressing Peter (Mt 16:18) whom he gave the key and the power to bind and to loose.