Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

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Carlan said:
So far throughout this thread your Protestant indoctrination is showing again, and you wonder why the Catholics on Answers are always calling you out. When are you going to start defending the faith you claim to be part of.???Discussion is good, but we do not confirm error. You put forth your own understanding not Church teaching and it causes scandal coming from the mouth of a Catholic.:(Carlan
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I am not here representing the Catholic Church. God Bless
 
Carlan said:
So far throughout this thread your Protestant indoctrination is showing again, and you wonder why the Catholics on Answers are always calling you out. When are you going to start defending the faith you claim to be part of.???Discussion is good, but we do not confirm error. You put forth your own understanding not Church teaching and it causes scandal coming from the mouth of a Catholic.:(Carlan
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They just don’t want to just leave you alone do they. Sigh.
 
PJM said:
Friend,

Please help me in Christian charity to understand.

You are a fallen away, uninformed, lapsed [and seemingly bitter] “catholic” who has put forth a great many, as of this post, unsupported by facts or evidence, positions [OSAS, Eucharist, Marian Dogmas] and yet you’d like us to hold your views as somehow valid?

***What am I missing? ***Did Christ simply allow one to hold any position without debate or rebuke? Is that your idea of Christian charity?

And your desire for “a less conserative Church” seems to me to mean, less Obedient to the Divine Will of God? Where is the charity in such a position? 🤷

Please help me out here?

Love and prayers,
Pat
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Hi Pat, I can try.

I may at the moment be fallen, lapsed in the eyes of the Catholic Church. But I hope not completely uninformed and I am sorry if I have come across as bitter. I think sometimes a person’s intent can be mistaken in online forums and for that I apologize. I am a little stumped though why you felt the need to write Catholic in quotations with a little “c”. 🤷 According to the church I am still Catholic. But anyway I’ll assume you also meant nothing by that and lets see if I can explain a little…

I guess what you are missing is we both were catechized. My instruction began as a young child. But as I grew older I needed to search Scripture for myself rather than just taking someone else’s word for things. I have no doubt you have looked at Scripture yourself to see if what we were taught had roots in Scripture. And I truly understand Catholic doctrine is backed by certain interpretations of Scripture and you accept these interpretations as Truth. But if someone studies Scripture and prays for Truth and they feel in their hearts the Holy Spirit is leading them at any given time to a certain belief, then while I am human and may not always attain this goal, who am I to say their interpretation is any more right or wrong? The way I see it believers who do not adhere to Catholic doctrine also use the same Scripture to base their beliefs on. One church or denomination might be right. Or with the human factor none of us may be completely right. Or perhaps we all have pieces of the Truth and Christ’s Church lies somewhere inbetween. Sadly Christianity is split. Catholics might say it is because of reformation. Reformers will say human failure and their sins require reformation. This does not mean His Church will not prevail. It only means perhaps we humans have messed it up. We do not know. But this is why it’s called faith.

Now no, of course this does not mean we can’t debate. You mentioned my desire for a less conservative church. Yes my heart aches and cries for such. I yearn for a more tolerant Church. A more caring Church. Sometimes I think it is not me who has lapsed but the Church has left me. As a for instance, as a liberal I see the church having fallen or become lapse on teaching Matt 25:35-46 for instance at the expense of emphasizing a few other issues. I presume you disagree. But I can attend Mass and hear one issue talked about nearly every time. But many times nothing on the teachings Christ gave us in these Matt verses. And I’ve attended various churches.

Anyway I do desire to be obedient to God’s will. But I’m still on my walk to figure out exactly what that is. We all are. It’s a lifelong journey.

I hope that helps a little. Thanks for your prayers and may God bless us all along our journeys. Take care and best wishes for a blessed, healthy new year in Christ. Peace.

Your friend in Christ
 
onenow1 said:
AP anything less then the whole truth about what the Catholic Church believes is error, half truths are not acceptable.

Peaceand God Bless
onenow1:)
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One, 😦 Interesting concept. Christ said to “sin no more”. Yet every one of us in the Church continues to sin. The Pope, Cardinals, bishops, priests, all the way down to you and me. So we’re all in error. Yet Christ finds a way to make it acceptable. I call it love, inclusion, tolerance and mercy. One person might confess directly to God or as the Bible instructs us to confess to one another. You might confess thru a priest. And that’s fine too. Our loving and merciful God accepts us all.
 
I’m waiting for a response/answer to my post ( #60 ), or am I to be ignored?

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Javl said:
So, then, what you are in effect saying is that for 1500 years all the emminent Church theologians and scholars down through the ages were all mistaken and wrong in their understanding of Christ calling Peter Kephas ( rock )? If this is so, then what was the reason for Jesus to change Simon Bar-Johnah’s name to Kephas? He didn’t have to if He meant only Peter’s faith to be the rock. Jesus could have said " Peter your faith is the rock on which I will build my Church" instead of saying to Peter “YOU are rock”.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
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I believe Jesus is the rock . Peter’s faith is not the church. If He said Peter on your faith I will build the Catholic Church, but He didn’t. So there is my answer, Oh thank you and God Bless
 
tweetymom said:
I believe Jesus is the rock . Peter’s faith is not the church. If He said Peter on your faith I will build the Catholic Church, but He didn’t. So there is my answer, Oh thank you and God Bless
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Thank you for your reply. For me Jesus is the cornerstone and Peter is the rock on which the Church was built.

Now can you answer me as to why Jesus changed Simon Bar-Jonah’s name to Peter if He did not mean to build the church on Peter? Thank you.

Meanwhile have a very Happy and blessed 2010.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
agent_grey said:
This is getting old!
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Yes this is getting old.

Tweety and Lib, how would you like to see the Church chang to fit you; to be more inclusive as one of you put it? Would it be better if the Church was ok with birth controll, abortion, divorce, women priets, gay marriage?

The list could go on. Please let us, the hard lined conservatives, know how we should change to “fit” you in and don’t make you feel bad about your views.
 
Lapey said:
Yes this is getting old.

Tweety and Lib, how would you like to see the Church chang to fit you; to be more inclusive as one of you put it? Would it be better if the Church was ok with birth controll, abortion, divorce, women priets, gay marriage?

The list could go on. Please let us, the hard lined conservatives, know how we should change to “fit” you in and don’t make you feel bad about your views.
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As old as time.

Lapey, well I can only speak for myself. But a few pts to ponder…

Read Matt 19 about marriage and divorce. Pay particular attn to verses 11 and 12.

Women were not to speak in church in Paul’s times. Why can they now? Customs, times change?

How often does Christ use the word abortion specifically? How many times does he mention the poor? Read Matt 25 for Christ’s emphasis.

I happen to agree with you. I believe abortion is wrong. But I also realize I live in a secular, pluralistic society. Not everyone agrees with you and me as to when human life begins. IMHO outlawing abortion isn’t going to stop it. There were abortions prior to Roe. A better focus may be to provide the support needed to hopefully make them rarer.

And then there’s the little thing called civil rights. We don’t live in a theocracy.

I wouldn’t mind seeing priests being allowed to marry like in the original Church.

I’d prefer to be able to actually understand the language and not revert back to Latin. I remember my childhood days and not having any idea what the priest was saying. And I’m too old to be learning Latin now. 😃

I’d like to see a human chain line against war and poverty, the homeless, the millions without healthcare, and not only against abortion. And I’d like to hear more about these and less about abortion, gays, and stem cells. Again Matt 25. 🙂

And by all means I’d like to see Jn 6:37 practiced.

Hope that helps. Peace and may God bless you in the new year.
 
Lib_Christian said:
One, 😦 Interesting concept. Christ said to “sin no more”. Yet every one of us in the Church continues to sin. The Pope, Cardinals, bishops, priests, all the way down to you and me. So we’re all in error. Yet Christ finds a way to make it acceptable. I call it love, inclusion, tolerance and mercy. One person might confess directly to God or as the Bible instructs us to confess to one another. You might confess thru a priest. And that’s fine too. Our loving and merciful God accepts us all.
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:confused: Did I mention something about sin ?

Peace have a Happy and Blessed New Tear.
onenow1
 
Javl said:
Thank you for your reply. For me Jesus is the cornerstone and Peter is the rock on which the Church was built.

Now can you answer me as to why Jesus changed Simon Bar-Jonah’s name to Peter if He did not mean to build the church on Peter? Thank you.

Meanwhile have a very Happy and blessed 2010.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
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"…establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone,} 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. - Ephesians 2

"having been built" has the implication of something being laid upon that which is already is established, in this example the “chief corner stone”, which is Christ, was the first and most important start of a building. If the corner stone was not perfect, then the whole project would not be perfect. My Lord in Luke 6 gives the illustration as to whom the rock bed foundation of the church of Jesus is.

46 "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built."- Luke 6:46-48

No one ever seems to doubt about who the “rock” refers to in this passage, because just like Matthew 16, the rock is the same as here “petra” and what is it the Words of Jesus or the Gospel. There is the same word “built” with the same idea as mentioned above.
**
Here Paul demonstrates exactly the point of “built” I referred to:**
“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.” - 1Corinthians 3:10
**
Here Paul gives another illustration:**
“For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” - 1 Corinthians 3:11
In no way possible is Peter able to be the foundation of the church, this verse alone abolishes any such idea. Peter, the other Apostles and the Prophets are the persons who laid upon the foundation, which is Christ and His message, which is the “Gospel”.

Finally, listen to the words of Peter himself:
6 For {this} is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER {stone,} AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER {stone,}” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this {doom} they were also appointed. 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God’s} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. - 1Peter2:6-10
Who is the Rock “petra” of offense? Peter or Jesus? Scripture will always verify itself and this is no exception. My God is my Rock “petra”.
 
Lib_Christian said:
One, 😦 Interesting concept. Christ said to “sin no more”. Yet every one of us in the Church continues to sin. The Pope, Cardinals, bishops, priests, all the way down to you and me. So we’re all in error. Yet Christ finds a way to make it acceptable. I call it love, inclusion, tolerance and mercy. One person might confess directly to God or as the Bible instructs us to confess to one another. You might confess thru a priest. And that’s fine too. Our loving and merciful God accepts us all.
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The Bible say s we are one in spirit , not in the flesh. this is why we walk by faith and not by sight, could be said we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Paul said if one is in the spirit; it is not longer the one that sins, but the flesh.
 
MacDaddy;6117294** [B said:
Who is the Rock “petra” of offense? Peter or Jesus? Scripture will always verify itself and this is no exception. My God is my Rock “petra”.[/B]
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Hello MacD, Here is Catholic read on it.

PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH
Let’s get down to it. You want to know where the real church is? You want to know why catholics believe that the catholic church is the one true church? Well let’s get started with this and stick to this topic.
First
We start with the keys. Keys in the bible are a symbol of Authority. The jews of the old testament new this extremely well.
The expression “power of the keys” is derived from Christ’s words to St. Peter (in Matthew 16:19). The promise there made finds its explanation in Isaiah 22, in which “the key of the house of David” is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of plenary authority in the Kingdom of Juda. Christ by employing this expression clearly designed to signify his intention to confer on St. Peter the supreme authority over His Church. This is very important to understand the meaning of the keys, so read Isaiah 22 for reference and study the parallel between Isaiah and Matthew. Jesus being a Jew new exactly what he was doing when he choose to parallel Isaiah and Matthew.
Now the keys go hand in hand with the changing of Simons name to the Rock.
The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter “rock”: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).

Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else.

Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modifed to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons.

These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: “You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church.”

The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following passages show.
Christ left the adoption of a name for His Church to those whom he
commissioned to teach all nations. Christ called the spiritual society
He established, “My Church” (Mt. xvi, 18), “the Church” (Mt. xviii, 17).
In order to have a distinction between the Church and the Synagogue and
to have a distinguishing name from those embracing Judaic and Gnostic
errors we find St. Ignatius (50-107 A.D.) using the Greek word
“Katholicos” (universal) to describe the universality of the Church
established by Christ. St. Ignatius was appointed Bishop of Antioch by
St.Peter, the Bishop of Rome. It is in his writtings that we find the
word Catholic used for the first time. St. Augustine, when speaking
about the Church of Christ, calls it the Catholic Church 240 times in
his writings.
Don’t forget that St. Ignatius was taught and ordained by John, one of the original 12 and the author of revelation and the Gospel of John.
Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.👍

Carlan__________________
 
Lapey said:
Yes this is getting old.

Tweety and Lib, how would you like to see the Church chang to fit you; to be more inclusive as one of you put it? Would it be better if the Church was ok with birth controll, abortion, divorce, women priets, gay marriage?

The list could go on. Please let us, the hard lined conservatives, know how we should change to “fit” you in and don’t make you feel bad about your views.
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I do not want anyone or anything change for me. I do not want you to change anything about what you think thats your business. Annulment isn’t divorce< And Birth control is not a sin!
 
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