Who were Adam's womb based parents?

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I quickly sourced these 2 articles just on google as I have no time this morning to get into the many things wrong with carbon dating as a tool to prove evolution it is practically useless, worthless, that is a very fair thing to say, but the creation story that stands up well Glory be to God.
 
I didn’t mean to imply that C-14 dating proves evolution. It does disprove the young earth creationist theory though, which I thought you were referring to. Do you know what would prove your theory though? Finding a skeleton of T-Rex with the skeleton of a human in his belly - or even in the same strata of sedimentary rock. Isn’t it interesting that no such thing has been found, even though there have been lots of human skeletons and lots of dinosaur skeletons found.
 
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there are over 100 uses of the word in the NT,
This is the page I referenced Strong's Greek: 599. ἀποθνήσκω (apothnéskó) -- to die
St. Paul’s use of seed in 1 Cor 15:35-38 is used for dying and new life. I will read more but these passages are talking about dying in one form and rising in another.

As for heliocentrism, we can observe movements, but our earthly home is still the most important place in the cosmos. The sun serves the earth. The science of “many first parents” is a best guess. It is not proven or infallible.
 
No. I mean that the argument that “the Immaculate Conception ‘proves’ that Adam wasn’t a hominin who received a soul from God” makes a presumption that isn’t valid. It presumes that this happened at Adam’s conception, and that’s not a necessary feature of the argument for Adam’s hominin-cum-human creation
I guess the problem here is about wording.

First, Genesis 2 is very clear regarding Adam’s creation. He came from the soil, not a beast. This account has words in hebrew for soil and beast that are distinct from each other. So, saying that Adam came from other living creature contradicts Scripture.

Second, Adam was immaculate when he came to exist in his humanity. And to be human means to be a living creature with a soul. If you’re saying there was already a living creature that was immaculate and received a soul by God, then you are saying this animal had graces that only humans may have, and this is wrong.
 
Here is the answer to your reasoning
Romans 128 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind.
Depravity of mind and a strong delusion is what drives evolution , here is facts
Evolution has no proof it is wrong in every aspect, man comes from Man elephant comes from elephant every species produces it’s own kind if you don’t see that then your not right in the head or heart.
Every species came about at the same time, every fossil shows the same species then as today of those still living, I mean show me how a fish crawled out of the water and changed into a human, dog, pig, rat, flea, seagull anything at all? it never happened. You should check out mitochondrial Eve and the mutation rate, puts the mother of all living men right around 6000 years old as the bible says or Y chromosome Adam
here is a fact take the brambly apple, it was developed by a gardener who played around with various kinds of apple trees to develop the brambly, that tree was great fantastic gave a really nice apple so he took a cutting and made another brambly tree and another and so on, what he found was over time every cutting produced a lesser quality the first was sound and good thereafter though every fruit got lesser, so you see it is the same with all kinds of life they get lesser not more therefor evolution goes contrary to nature and the observable second law of thermodynamics.
and to answer your question if you want to see man and dino together there are plenty of artefacts showing art and pottery etc depicting dinos you see how man was the master and dread of all things God created all to their own species that includes man and beast and tree and insect and bird. just like all the real evidence shows.when he did it is not important.
And are we to believe that death did not exist before Adam and Eve? it states clearly that by the sin of Adam death entered into the world so if there was a before Adam did no one die? that alone should put and end to the debate.
 
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and to answer your question if you want to see man and dino together there are plenty of artefacts showing art and pottery etc depicting dinos…
This is creative interpretation of ancient works of art. You may see a man and a dinosaur in a cave painting, while someone else may see a buffalo and a bear. Art interpretation is not scientific evidence that man and dinosaurs lived together. But I still want to know why no fossils show them living together? All fossil evidence is that they are separated by tens of millions of years.
And are we to believe that death did not exist before Adam and Eve? it states clearly that by the sin of Adam death entered into the world so if there was a before Adam did no one die? that alone should put and end to the debate.
That is one possible interpretation of scripture. The Church does not teach that interpretation, but you are free to believe it if you wish.
 
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How is it that death entered into the world retroactively after the fall? You’ve yet to fully explain your position in a way I can understand.
Fair enough.

First off, the claim isn’t that it’s a “retroactive” entry of death into the world. Rather, it’s that Paul identifies that the ‘death’ that came into the world is human death, because of sin, for those who sin. In other words, this is a kind of ‘death’ was not in the world at its creation. What kind of ‘death’ is this, then?

We know that physical death was part of human nature from the very beginning, but that God gave Adam and Eve special ‘preternatural’ gifts – among which were immortality. I think we could make a case, then, that if physical death was part of human nature, albeit suspended through preternatual gifts, then it was part of animal and plant nature as well – and there’s no teaching of the Church that says that animals and plants received preternatural gifts!

So, if Paul is talking about a type of ‘death’ through sin in Romans 5, I don’t think we are forced to conclude that animals and plants did not die until that time. In fact, in the citation you make (and show that Fitzmeyer references), we don’t see Paul asserting death (vis-a-vis animals and plants) per se, but rather, an “out-of-joint-ness” (Fitzmeyer’s words) and a slavery to corruption.

So, my case is that, although there are definite effects to both humans and the world, due to the Fall of Adam, a close reading of the Bible doesn’t necessarily assert that all physical death is one of those effects.
 
Pope Pius XII did say what he said in 37, but where it gets interesting is immediately following what you bolded.
Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled…
Pius XII answered it this way

Excerpt from Humani Generis (August 12, 1950) | PIUS XII paragraph 37

“When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.

Science theorizes about Lucy vs Eve.
 
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If that were the case, the Vatican would have censured theologians giving statements regarding polygenism. (Albeit not by that name as mono/polygenism isn’t really being used since HG.)

There’s quite an interesting discussion about it in
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What make you think That Adam and Eve are real despite the evolutionary change or chance and widespread of the Neanderthals and Homosapians Sacred Scripture
With the scriptures tell a much different history of the migration spread, what evidence or arguments could you say would convince me that Adam and Eve are real?
I’m finding opop’s posts quite interesting in it.
 
We know that physical death was part of human nature from the very beginning , but that God gave Adam and Eve special ‘preternatural’ gifts – among which were immortality. I think we could make a case, then, that if physical death was part of human nature, albeit suspended through preternatual gifts, then it was part of animal and plant nature as well – and there’s no teaching of the Church that says that animals and plants received preternatural gifts!

So, if Paul is talking about a type of ‘death’ through sin in Romans 5, I don’t think we are forced to conclude that animals and plants did not die until that time. In fact, in the citation you make (and show that Fitzmeyer references), we don’t see Paul asserting death (vis-a-vis animals and plants) per se, but rather, an “out-of-joint-ness” (Fitzmeyer’s words) and a slavery to corruption.

So, my case is that, although there are definite effects to both humans and the world, due to the Fall of Adam, a close reading of the Bible doesn’t necessarily assert that all physical death is one of those effects.
A quick correction on your part… the “out-of-jointness” statement came from Dunn not Fitzmeyer. A minor quibble, but one that must be pointed out. CAF rules do not permit me to post the six pages of notes that Fitzmeyer wrote that disprove your exegesis of St. Paul (even more if you include the section on Romans 5:12-21. With that said, I once more have to encourage you to go read the actual source cited, because the scope of this internet forum is limited.

As for Paul’s letters, it is important that we keep in mind the “Literary Occasion” of each letter, because they were written for a specific reason. We also don’t have all of Paul’s theology in writing, because letters in the ancient world were delivered orally. The physical letter existed to aid the messengers memory. If only we could have been there to actually hear the words that were spoken. Alas, we are only stuck with the messenger’s notes. This is why St. Paul is the hardest apostle to interpret, and why we don’t assume (as Luther did) that Paul’s letter to the Romans contain the whole of Christian theology. This is the reason we consult Paul’s other letters and the other books of the Bible, tradition, and the Church Father’s when studying Paul.

As you remember, I said I would go through the Patristic writings and post them here. Here are my findings, which illustrate something very different from your own personal exegesis:
 
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Part 1 of 2 from St. John of Chrysostom - Homily 14
Ver. 19, 20. “For the earnest expectation of the creation waits,” he says, “for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope.”
And the meaning is something of this kind. The creation itself is in the midst of its pangs, waiting for and expecting these good things whereof we have just now spoken. For “earnest expectation” (ἀ ποκαραδοκία, looking out) implies expecting intensely. And so his discourse becomes more emphatic, and he personifies this whole world as the prophets also do, when they introduce the floods clapping their hands, and little hills leaping, and mountains skipping, not that we are to fancy them alive, or ascribe any reasoning power to them, but that we may learn the greatness of the blessings, so great as to reach even to things without sense also. The very same thing they do many times also in the case of afflicting things, since they bring in the vine lamenting, and the wine too, and the mountains, and the boardings of the Temple howling, and in this case too it is that we may understand the extremity of the evils. It is then in imitation of these that the Apostle makes a living person of the creature here, and says that it groans and travails: not that he heard any groan conveyed from the earth and heaven to him, but that he might show the exceeding greatness of the good things to come; and the desire of freedom from the ills which now pervaded them.
Source: St. John Chrysostom - Homily 14

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210214.htm
 
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Part 2 of 2 from St. John of Chrysostom - Homily 14
“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same.” What is the meaning of, “the creation was made subject to vanity?” Why that it became corruptible. For what cause, and on what account? On account of you, O man. For since you have taken a body mortal and liable to suffering, the earth too has received a curse, and brought forth thorns and thistles. But that the heaven, when it is waxen old along with the earth, is to change afterwards to a better portion (λἥξιν v. p. 384) hear from the Prophet in his words; “You, O Lord, from the beginning hast founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but you shall endure; and they all shall grow old like a garment, and You shall fold them up like a cloak, and they shall be changed.” Psalm 102:25-26 Isaiah too declares the same, when he says, “Look to the heaven above, and upon the earth beneath, for the heavens are as a firmament of smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall perish in like manner.” Isaiah 51:6. Now you see in what sense the creation is “in bondage to vanity,” and how it is to be freed from the ruined state. For the one says, “You shall fold them up as a garment, and they shall be changed;” and Isaiah says, “and they that dwell therein shall perish in like manner,” not of course meaning an utter perishing. For neither do they that dwell therein, mankind, that is, undergo such an one, but a temporary one, and through it they are changed into an incorruptible 1 Corinthians 15:53 state, and so therefore will the creature be. And all this he showed by the way, by his saying “in like manner” 2 Peter 3:13, which Paul also says farther on. At present, however, he speaks about the bondage itself, and shows for what reason it became such, and gives ourselves as the cause of it. What then? Was it harshly treated on another’s account? By no means, for it was on my account that it was made. What wrong then is done it, which was made for my sake, when it suffers these things for my correction? Or, indeed, one has no need to moot the question of right and wrong at all in the case of things void of soul and feeling. But Paul, since he had made it a living person, makes use of none of these topics I have mentioned, but another kind of language, as desiring to comfort the hearer with the utmost advantage. And of what kind is this? What have you to say? He means. It was evil intreated for your sake, and became corruptible; yet it has had no wrong done it. For incorruptible will it be for your sake again. This then is the meaning of “in hope.” But when he says, it was “not willingly” that it was made subject, it is not to show that it is possessed of judgment that he says so, but that you may learn that the whole is brought about by Christ’s care, and this is no achievement of its own. And now say in what hope?
Source: St. John Chrysostom - Homily 14

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210214.htm
 
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St. Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book V, Chapter 33.4
  1. And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him. And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, "when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord.’ the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’ " When prophesying of these times, therefore, Esaias says: “The wolf also shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall take his rest with the kid; the calf also, and the bull, and the lion shall eat together; and a little boy shall lead them. The ox and the bear shall feed together, and their young ones shall agree together; and the lion shall eat straw as well as the ox. And the infant boy shall thrust his hand into the asp’s den, into the nest also of the adder’s brood; and they shall do no harm, nor have power to hurt anything in my holy mountain.” And again he says, in recapitulation, “Wolves and lambs shall then browse together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and the serpent earth as if it were bread; and they shall neither hurt nor annoy anything in my holy mountain, says the Lord.” Isaiah 40:6, etc. I am quite aware that some persons endeavour to refer these words to the case of savage men, both of different nations and various habits, who come to believe, and when they have believed, act in harmony with the righteous. But although this is [true] now with regard to some men coming from various nations to the harmony of the faith, nevertheless in the resurrection of the just [the words shall also apply] to those animals mentioned. For God is rich in all things. And it is right that when the creation is restored, all the animals should obey and be in subjection to man, and revert to the food originally given by God (for they had been originally subjected in obedience to Adam), that is, the productions of the earth. But some other occasion, and not the present, is [to be sought] for showing that the lion shall [then] feed on straw. And this indicates the large size and rich quality of the fruits. For if that animal, the lion, feeds upon straw [at that period], of what a quality must the wheat itself be whose straw shall serve as suitable food for lions?
St. Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book V, Chapter 33.4
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103533.htm
 
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St. Theophilus of Antioch - Book 2 Chapter 17
Chapter 17. Of the Sixth Day.
And on the sixth day, God having made the quadrupeds, and wild beasts, and the land reptiles, pronounced no blessing upon them, reserving His blessing for man, whom He was about to create on the sixth day. The quadrupeds, too, and wild beasts, were made for a type of some men, who neither know nor worship God, but mind earthly things, and repent not. For those who turn from their iniquities and live righteously, in spirit fly upwards like birds, and mind the things that are above, and are well-pleasing to the will of God. But those who do not know nor worship God, are like birds which have wings, but cannot fly nor soar to the high things of God. Thus, too, though such persons are called men, yet being pressed down with sins, they mind grovelling and earthly things. And the animals are named wild beasts [θηρία], from their being hunted [θηρεύεσθαι], not as if they had been made evil or venomous from the first — for nothing was made evil by God, but all things good, yea, very good — but the sin in which man was concerned brought evil upon them. For when man transgressed, they also transgressed with him. For as, if the master of the house himself acts rightly, the domestics also of necessity conduct themselves well; but if the master sins, the servants also sin with him; so in like manner it came to pass, that in the case of man’s sin, he being master, all that was subject to him sinned with him. When, therefore, man again shall have made his way back to his natural condition, and no longer does evil, those also shall be restored to their original gentleness.
Source: St. Theophilus of Antioch - Book 2 Chapter 17
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02042.htm
 
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CAF rules do not permit me to post the six pages of notes that Fitzmeyer wrote that disprove your exegesis of St. Paul (even more if you include the section on Romans 5:12-21. With that said, I once more have to encourage you to go read the actual source cited, because the scope of this internet forum is limited.
I have to go find my copy of the Fitzmeyer; a quick look around my bookcases didn’t turn it up. 👍
 
There is a lot of confusion about what the church teaches on evolution the fact is it does not teach anything other than it is good for man to follow science BUT when that science contradicts the bible we need to pause and re look at things here is what is missing from your argument
Matthew 19.4 In the beginning God created Man and Woman, In the beginning
Through One man sin entered the world
Through One man Death entered the world
and believe me for the past 2000 years the church has always taught origins to be in the beginning God created man and woman in his own image he created them.
It was not until the last century that men who some clearly hated God and his church gave us a naturalistic genesis and through the means of schools etc propagated that theory and lead many astray from the truth even intellectuals but we know what Jesus said don’t we I thank you father for hiding these things from the learned and revealing it to small children.
I fully believe evolution is a concept of the Devil and his followers spread the gospel of lies around the world to sow confusion and to take souls away from God.
To sum this up, There is no proof for evolution and every day more holes appear in it and you have to deny centuries of Catholic teaching.
I recommend taking your truth from Scripture not men who hate God and are at war with heaven.
God bless
 
We know that physical death was part of human nature from the very beginning , but that God gave Adam and Eve special ‘preternatural’ gifts – among which were immortality.
Your own explanation of original sin fits better with the traditional belief in the creation of Adam and Eve, that is, Adam formed directly from the dust of the earth by God, immediately, body and soul, with preternatural gifts, and Eve later from his side. Otherwise your position argues that “Adam and Eve” were just a hominin male and female, subject to the elements of nature and decay of aging, who became immortal and endowed with preternatural gifts only after receiving souls. Nothing in Scripture or in the writings of the Church Fathers supports this view. If Adam and Eve were not immortal until they received souls, then they did not have special preternatural gifts “from the beginning” as you state - unless your position is that they were not “Adam and Eve” until they received souls

The direct creation of Adam also parallels our belief in the Resurrection, since just as Adam was created from dust, In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection [CCC 997].
 
If Adam and Eve were not immortal until they received souls, then they did not have special preternatural gifts “from the beginning” as you state - unless your position is that they were not “Adam and Eve” until they received souls
Now you’re starting to get it! They were not fully human until they received souls. 👍
 
Yes, I understand your position. But I do not agree with it. So in your view, the first male and female were indeed subject to decay and aging, but those effects were reversed when they received souls?
 
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