Who were Adam's womb based parents?

[Sonic]

Paul explains that death entered the world for those who sin . I’ve never seen my apple tree – or my dogs, for that matter – commit sin.

From the CCC:

289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. the inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the “beginning”: creation, fall, and promise of salvation.

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

Footnotes for 400:
282 Cf. Gen 3:7-16.
283 Cf. Gen 3:17,19.
284 Rom 8:21.
285 Gen 3:19; cf. 2:17.
286 Cf. Rom 5:12.

 

[Benadam]

Why would the garden require ‘tending’ – or stewardship of any kind – if there were no ‘decay’?

Good point. Creation was subjected to decay for man’s sake it seems. Maybe God decided a process of decay would do well to form the human body. Delayed Hominisation on a big scale…

 

[Sonic]

@Benadam

I’ve been looking further into you exegesis on Romans 8:19. I cannot find anyone who agrees with your interpretation.

The following is from pg. 505-506 of Romans: A New translation with Introduction and Commentary by Joseph A. Fitzmeyer. I have included a scan of the citation:

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Joseph A. Dunn is also in agreement with Fitmeyer. The following is from pg 100-101 of his book entitled: The Theology of Paul the Apostle.

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I will consult the Church Fathers to see if there is any precedence to your interpretation of scripture.

 

[AlNg]

God clearly says in Genesis, Adam came from the dirt .

“Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Is everything in the Bible something said by God or is it something written by a human person? In the quoted passage the author says that God formed a man from dust. It doesn’t say that God said Adam came from dust.

 

[Benadam]

The word ‘dust’ always a population of people.

Genesis 13:16
I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth;

Numbers 23:10
Who can count the dust of Jacob, or number the dust-cloud of Israel?

1 Kings 16:2
“Since I exalted you out of the dust and made you leader over my people Israel,

Judith 2:20
Along with them went a mixed crowd like a swarm of locusts, like the dust of the earth—a multitude that could not be counted.

1 Kings 20:10
Ben-hadad sent to him and said, “The gods do so to me, and more also, if the dust of Samaria will provide a handful for each of the people who follow me.”

2 Chronicles 1:9
O Lord God, let your promise to my father David now be fulfilled, for you have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth.

Sirach 44:21
Therefore the Lord assured him with an oath that the nations would be blessed through his offspring; that he would make him as numerous as the dust of the earth, and exalt his offspring like the stars, and give them an inheritance from sea to sea and from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.

Genesis 2:7
then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground,

 

[Sonic]

The word ‘dust’ always a population of people.

Always? No not always. Remember that the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and then later translated into Greek for the Septuagint version. This is why Biblical scholars look at the original language to help them to interpret the Bible.

Genesis 2:7 “then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

In Hebrew: “way-yî-ṣer (and formed) Yah-weh (the Lord) ’ĕ-lō-hîm (God) ’eṯ- hā-’ā-ḏām (man), ‘ā-p̄ār (of the dust) min- hā-’ă-ḏā-māh (of the ground)…”

Genesis 13:16 is different…

“I will make your descendants like the dust of the earth; if anyone could count the dust of the earth, your descendants too might be counted.”

In Hebrew: “wə-śam-tî (and I will make) ’eṯ- zar-‘ă-ḵā (your offspring) ka-‘ă-p̄ar (as the dust) hā-’ā-reṣ; (of the earth) …”

 

[sevenswords]

It is also written that Adam was put into a sleep and Eve was created from Adams side ie his rib?
so we know adam gave birth to Eve this does not sound like an evolved couple from separate parents or the same parents for that matter.
I think Evolution is a lie from the enlightenment movement and there is no proof for it and it has some Christians willing to change scripture to allow for that lie.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Is everything in the Bible something said by God or is it something written by a human person?

Second Vatican Council, Dei Verbum 11:
“everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit”

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Do you understand what Sacred Scripture is?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Science is concerned with the how, religion with the why, but in the account of creation, there is common ground, as in the end .

i believe the first 10 words. It is not necessary for a Catholic to believe that Adam was made directly from dirt. Genesis does not say “directly,” but you are requiring it.

 

[Wesrock]

This is my final question on Evolution.

who was Adam’s parents? if so they be from animals, would Adam be fathered by animals?

In a previous topic, I provided some ideas on how to reconcile our theological monogenism with evolutionary polygenism. I’m a bit uncomfortable with addressing this topic separate from that context because, ultimately, the other ideas were just proposals on one way the science could be with Church teaching, not fact or Church teaching in itself. [The specific proposal I refer to is the Kenneth Kemp proposal.]

The short answer is we don’t know.

Within the proposal I presented in another topic, there are some options. They could have been the same biological species as Adam, but lack that intellectual quality that made Adam a rational animal: that ability to have a true language, to truly be able to grasp universals from the particulars of every day experience, and so on, though they would have still have been highly complex as far as animals go behaviorally and socially. Another alternative is that Adam was literally made separately, even formed of red clay, biologically identical to the other human-like animals, but rationally different and, after the fall, was released into the rest of the world alongside these others, and Adam’s children would have been reproductive compatible with them.

But let me reiterate again. These specifics are not something you’ll find in Church doctrine, and these specifics aren’t really falsifiable at this point. This is only based on a proposal on how it might be possible to reconcile the current science with Church teaching.

 

[mVitus]

I was mulling over those CCC quotes for a while. And what occurred to me is that the CCC does very much defend the making, use, and display of icons, something I’d not disagree with. And where it says that they communicate the gospels in words, it seems in context as saying they help us understand scripture by seeing it, not that they are a source to draw theological knowledge from. And that would also make rational sense given just how many icons there are.

And in addition to that, icons are artistic renditions. Art is not focused on 100% fact all the time. And it reflects attitudes of the time. There are famous icons of St. Nicholas slapping Arius even though it’s near certain that never happened. (Much more likely the incident involved a follower of Arius.) And in depictions of Christ’s passion, we often see Him carrying a whole cross, though historians of Roman history pretty much agree that crucifixion victims only carried the crossbeam. Or we have Him nailed through the hands, though it’s quite likely that it would’ve been through the wrists. (And to make clear, none of those discrepancies impact the purpose of the icon.)

I was also thinking about things and Pope Pius XII wasn’t stupid when he wrote Humani Generis. The issue of death amongst animals before The Fall had to have occurred to him befire writing the encyclical that made clear Catholics could accept the science of evolution as a way to understand our biological origins. In other words, we can know it doesn’t contradict our faith.

 

[Greenfields]

God clearly says in Genesis, Adam came from the dirt .

“Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

This …

 

[Gorgias]

So this would be a miraculous creation of our first parents, by ensouling “hominins” who up until their ensoulment were subject to bodily disease and death, but upon receiving souls were made immortal? So once they were infused with souls, their bodies stopped aging, and presumably the effects reversed?

I’m surprised you’re arguing against God’s ability to do miracles.

Plants grow and produce fruit, vegetables, etc., so they would need to be harvested.

Hmm… I seem to recall someone once saying, “unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.” If, in order to produce fruit, there must be death and decay… are you now suggesting that the very nature of every living thing fundamentally changed at the fall? C’mon… the contortions are starting to twist you into a pretzel…

Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”

As I recall, creation was subject to the consequences of sin – toil in the garden would now be more difficult. That’s not the “bondage to decay” that’s being referenced here?

It is also written that Adam was put into a sleep and Eve was created from Adams side ie his rib?
so we know adam gave birth to Eve this does not sound like an evolved couple from separate parents or the same parents for that matter.

If you take a literalistic approach to interpretation, it does. The Church doesn’t force that interpretation on us, however.

I think Evolution is a lie from the enlightenment movement and there is no proof for it and it has some Christians willing to change scripture to allow for that lie.

And if the Church taught this approach, I’d be good with it. She doesn’t, though – in fact, she allows us to investigate the theory of evolution. So, while I can acknowledge your belief, I cannot say that it’s either binding or even recommended by the Church.

 

[goout]

Adam was created by God. God was his parents. No womb

Ummm, no.
God is not the parent of Adam. Not supported anywhere in Catholic theology. God is responsible for the whole of creation, and is directly responsible for Adam and all the rest of us, but God is not Adam’s parent(s).

 

[goout]

Roseeurekacross:

God clearly says in Genesis, Adam came from the dirt .

“Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

This …

Please note that the Catholic Church does not read Genesis as literalist factualist history, nor as a material science book.
End of story, settled matter.

 

[goout]

Pathway2:

This is my final question on Evolution.

who was Adam’s parents? if so they be from animals, would Adam be fathered by animals?

The short answer is we don’t know.

BINGO. Wisest words on the whole thread. Wise because they are true, and they are simple, and they are humble. They don’t pretend to have knowledge that is not available, and they don’t fit theology into one’s own personal bubble.

 

[goout]

Sonic:

I cannot see Adam being born from animal parents or from some proto-human or pre-human parents.

Our Lady says she is the Immaculate Conception. She did not say she was an Immaculate Conception or the third Immaculate Conception.

You’re assuming that a living Adam would have had to have been given a soul at conception, right? What’s the basis for that assumption?

Adam was created by God and was without sin. Eve was created from Adam by God and she was without sin. Neither Adam or Eve were conceived without sin. They were created and then later sinned.

What if they were created (i.e., ‘conceived’) and later received a soul, and even later than that, sinned?

Good questions that do not have answers. Here are a few that take off from yours.
What if God’s ways are outside time and outside the realm of scientific understanding, and we just aren’t going to fully comprehend the mystery of original sin?
What if Scripture opens the door to a deeper mystery than we are able to fully comprehend?
What if limiting Scripture to materialist modernist readings plays right into the hand of atheists?

 

[edwest211]

I’m saying there were no hominids. Or pre-humans. If there were, they were animals.

 

[edwest211]

Adam did not give birth to Eve, she was fashioned from a part of his own flesh by God while locked in sleep.