Who will choose God?

[tabcom]

**Q: Who will choose God?

Romans 3:10, 11 There is none righteous, no, not one…there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

Psalms 39:5 – every man at his best state is altogether vanity

Isaiah 64:7 – there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth (uwr – wake up from the dead) up himself to take hold of thee

Man has no ability or good in himself to be willing to come alive in Christ. Job said that all men drink iniquity like water ( Job 15:16). It is by the will of God and not man that he is caused to come alive in Christ.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of unclean? Not one.

Proverbs 20:9,12 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?.. The hearing (shama- obedient) ear and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Philippians 1:6 He that hath “begun” (God the Father) a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2:13 It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

James says concerning the new birth:

James 1:18 – of his own will begat he us with the word of truth

The word “will” in this verse is the word boulema, meaning purpose. When man is dead in sin he has no righteous purpose in himself.

John tells us by whose will we receive new birth.

John 1:13 Which were born (spiritually) not of blood, Nor of the “will” of the flesh, nor of the “will” of man, But of God

Man does not determine whether he will be “born again” and become a son of God.

To those who believe they can “accept Christ” by their own, so-called, “free will”, this is one verse that I cannot see how they justify in their minds. The word “will” in this verse is the word Thelema and it means determination. Man does not “determine” his salvation (which is the new birth) by his own will.

Paul says that the physical man is sensual and he cannot “accept Christ”.

I Corinthians 2:14 – the natural (psuchikos – physical, sensual man) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The word “receiveth” in this verse (I Cor. 2:14) is the Greek word dechomai. The word dech is the word ten, from which we get the word decade (ten years) and the word decalogue (ten words/ ten commandments). This word receiveth means to reach out willingly with the ten fingers (a figurative word of speech) and “accept” an offer that has been made. If a man could make the decision to “accept” Christ by some righteous ability that was in him, then he could take credit for the beginning of his salvation.

A: No one.**

 

[LilyM]

None of us can choose God? We’re all irredeemably damned if that’s the case.

God WILL NOT save us in spite of ourselves, you know. We have to at least take a step or two towards him ourselves.

 

[tabcom]

We have to at least take a step or two towards him ourselves.

LilyM . . . if you would be so kind as to state where in the Bible that this idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ is demonstrated, I would like to discuss it. Otherwise, I’m assuming you are merely expressing an opinion.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM . . . if you would be so kind as to state where in the Bible that this idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ is demonstrated, I would like to discuss it. Otherwise, I’m assuming you are merely expressing an opinion.

How about ‘do not LET sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts’ (Romans 6:12)

• clearly sinfulness or sinlessness is dependent at least in part on our own DECISION and WILL which we must ourselves exercise in a choice not to sin, or not to OBEY the promptings of the evil one.

So we certainly must actively turn away from and resist sin for one thing. This part (although a small one) that we play in our own salvation is something God will not do for us. We must do it for ourselves.

 

[zemi]

LilyM . . . if you would be so kind as to state where in the Bible that this idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ is demonstrated, I would like to discuss it. Otherwise, I’m assuming you are merely expressing an opinion.

Where in the Bible do you have, tabcom, that you can discuss the idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ only if it is found in the Bible?

 

[zemi]

I read only the first quote - Rom 3,10 and well… :

tabcom, I hope you know that you cannot take it like this out of the context and say there are no righteous people…

 

[tabcom]

**Romans 6:12

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts.

‘Do not let sin reign’ is translated from the orginal Greek word, Basileuo (bas-il-yoo’-o). It is a verb, present active, imperative, singular.

What that means is, Paul is commanding a gentile church, ‘do not let sin reign’. Why is he doing so? Because he is instucting baby believers that, not unlike today, think that because they got saved one night, its ok to follow sin.

**

 

[tabcom]

Where in the Bible do you have, tabcom, that you can discuss the idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ only if it is found in the Bible?

**I’m sorry, I’ve read your post several times and I’m still not sure what you are asking. Could you please rephase your question?
**

 

[zemi]

Sure

LilyM . . . if you would be so kind as to state where in the Bible that this idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ is demonstrated, I would like to discuss it. Otherwise, I’m assuming you are merely expressing an opinion.

Here you said you want the idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ demontrated from the Bible and that only then you would discuss it.

But there’s no place in the Bible that prohibits discussing it if it’s not found in the Bible

There’s not a verse in the Bible supporting Sola Scriptura, that’s the point.

 

[thistle]

None of us can choose God? We’re all irredeemably damned if that’s the case.

God WILL NOT save us in spite of ourselves, you know. We have to at least take a step or two towards him ourselves.

Maybe you haven’t read Tabcom’s threads before. He maintains nobody can choose God because Tabcom belongs to the Church of Pre-destination and he believes his 70 year old pastor can interpret scripture better than all the best theological minds of the past 2000 years.

 

[Greg27]

Will all due respect, the search for God has been carried out vigorously by human beings since the dawn of time. While our sins and errors have often blinded humans everywhere to the Absolute, many religions and philosophies have searched out for a final truth and answer for all things.

A detailed study of the world’s religions and philosophical systems show that religiosity and the search for God are very universal, and were not confined to the historical area bounded by early Christianity alone. Of course there are several theological responses and questions which arise from this problem, that Christianity is a historical and revealed religion which only occured in one part of the world yet Jesus’s work on the cross represents God’s most perfect and final revealing of his salvific will for all of humanity. God wills all to be saved and come to the truth, and many humans across all parts of the world have searched for the truth and found it in varying forms, and the richness and depth of the human quest for goodness, truth and beauty in all forms is not in my view to be dismissed simply as paganism.

Different religions of course have developed different ideas about what the vision of God or the Absolute (or union with it) consists of. Even within Christianity itself, the ideas of the vision of God take many different forms. The richness and variety of these forms don’t suggest to me the complete depravity of man but rather the infinite depth and riches and graces of God, which he gives without partiality to all.

There is nothing worse and more pernicious in my view to the true Christian faith than puffed up self-righteousness because we are in Christ, especially in relations to people of other religions. If anything, Christ will demand more from us because we are in Christ than those who aren’t when the time of judgement comes.

Clearly Christianity is a missionary religion, but mission requires a decent intellectual justification in terms of charity, non-violence and love towards all with welcome and impartiality, rather than shrill and self-righteous condemnation of those different from us.

 

[stephanut]

Erm…sorry tabcom (and the others too) so since you believe in pre-destination, how did YOU end up in church, and how different was your path from the rest of us “non-predestined” folks? And that makes me forever condemned from the day I was born?

Pardon me if question sounds silly, cuz I’ve been hearing this term being bounced around, and I’ve never quite understood it. Thanks.

 

[japhy]

Q: Who will choose God?
A: No one.

I’ll address the issue of “choosing” God later, but first, let me ask this:

If no one chooses God, and God chooses some and not all of us, then what do we make of 1 Timothy 2:4: ος παντας ανθρωπους θελει σωθηναι και εις επιγνωσιν αληθειας ελθειν, that is [God] will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth? What does “παντας” (pantas) mean in this case?

Does God want all of us to be saved or not? And if He does want all of us to be saved, but some die unsaved, why is that? Because God didn’t “choose them” soon enough?

 

[Tom]

** Paul is commanding a gentile church, ‘do not let sin reign’. Why is he doing so? Because he is instucting baby believers that, not unlike today, think that because they got saved one night, its ok to follow sin. **

And exactly why is it, if it is nothing we “do”, Paul is “instructing” at all? He’s doing something, he’s acting as an agent for God. Why? isn’t God capable of communing to each individual without our human help? How is it we can “follow sin”, if we are predestined for glory. Conversely, how is it we can be “saved” if we have been predestined? We are either predestined for heaven or hell right? So, nothing we do can change the will of God. We’re never “saved”, since we were never lost, we were always predestined. So the death and resurrection of Jesus is meaningless, we never needed saving at all, God predestined us to eternal glory, we have no way to be saved. God decided for us didn’t He? We have no way to lose this salvation either. We may as well enjoy life, surely God won’t judge us, after all it was His will that I live my life the way He predestined, it isn’t my fault. Great theology, I love it, what church is that I want to join!

 

[antimon]

1. God created everyone
2. God gave everyone free will
3. God loves everyone
4. God wishes everyone to be saved
5. God chooses only some, others are damned. Their free will is irrelevant.

You don’t need a Bible to see that 5) is conflicting with 1) 2) 3) 4). Please explain that.

 

[tabcom]

There’s not a verse in the Bible supporting Sola Scriptura, that’s the point.

**OK… thanks for making your point more clear to me.

What I now fail to understand is why you feel compelled to make this point, sola scripture, at all? Is this your attempt to disprove the dozens of verses throughout the Bible that states that God chooses His People?

Did not Paul write:

2Ti 3:16 -
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

**

 

[Fidelis]

Where in the Bible do you have, tabcom, that you can discuss the idea of ‘taking a step or two towards God’ only if it is found in the Bible?

Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God’s image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven’t formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

(continued)

 

[Fidelis]

(continued from previous post)

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God’s grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn’t wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the “elect” might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).

Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

 

[tabcom]

he believes his 70 year old pastor can interpret scripture better than all the best theological minds of the past 2000 years.

Thistle . . . it is good to hear from you again. The quoted statement is one that has puzzled me in the past. I find it odd that you still use it as some sort of defense mechanism against me. Everytime you refer to it, it leaves me scraching my head in wonderment as to you intent. Could you please explain yourself?

 

[tabcom]

Pardon me if question sounds silly, cuz I’ve been hearing this term (predestination) being bounced around, and I’ve never quite understood it. Thanks.

**A definition is in order . . .

Predestinate is the Greek word Pro’orizo. Pro’orizo means to prebound or predetermine boundary lines in advance. Pro’orizo is a construction of the prefix pro (our prefix “pre”, meaning before) and the Greek word ‘Orizo – to bound or to mark out a boundary, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain

The small mark ‘ before the word ‘Orizo is called a diacritical mark. It has an “h” sound. The word ‘orizo is written “Horizo” and pronounced, “Horidzo”( the “z” is pronounced “dz” in the Greek). This word looks similar to our word “Horizon”. That is because it is exactly our word horizon.

The horizon was a very familiar boundary line to Jewish mind. It was the division or the boundary of light (day) and darkness (night).

Jesus said, “Ye are the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14). Light is equated with Truth throughout scripture.

Paul said, “Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light. – have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness” (Eph. 5:8,11).

Again, Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers – what communion hath light with darkness?” (II Cor. 6:14).

Unbelievers are equated as living in darkness, therefore believers are equated with light – light is always equivalent to Truth.

We are commanded to walk in the light.**