Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

[Rich_Olszewski]

Both your premises are wrong, BTW-Obama in not certain to win and there is nothing evil about the GOP agenda

LOL! Spoken like a stalwart and true believer in the GOP!

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Obama cut $500 billion from medicare benefits but the Republicans are targeting seniors? Obama is no sure win unless the economy and unemployment rate vastly improve. I don’t think is the top importance, doesn’t it tend to be the economy first, and i the Bin Laden issue is brought up in debates I et he Republican nominee will give credit to Obama, but also making clear Obama continued George Bush’ policies to make the capture.

I do agree that Republicans will make the case that Obama is capitalizing on actions started by Bush----particulalry the “torture” issue----personally I don’t think that it really was that much of a contributing factor in Osama’s death, but I DO agree that the GOP wil use this to its advantage.

Ultimately, the election will be decided by the state of the economy. It IS ultimately “the economy, stupid.”

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

No, and that is a flat out, blatant, straw man caricature of this thread. To be a Catholic, one needs to vote in favor of the sanctity of life. The Democrat party, overwhelmingly is in favor of abortion rights. The Republican party is overwhelmingly the party in support of the sanctity of life - as evidenced by their platform on abortion, the views of their candidates, and the actions of their leaders in power. We most vote for the candidate who promotes the sanctity of life - if that candidate is Republican, then so be it. If you have a problem voting for Republicans, perhaps you should ask the Democrats why they support abortion rights.

Ishii

I’m not American, but I’ll ask one simple question: If the Republicans are so anti-abortion, why didn’t they just outlaw it during their tenure as the political party in power? What’s taking them so long/has took them so long?

The claim that “to be a Catholic, one needs to vote in favour of the sanctity of life”, is erroneous. To be a Catholic, you need to essentially believe in what is laid out in the Nicene Creed. You are entitled to your own opinions, but certainly not your own facts. Fortunately, no one here has the authority to claim who is Catholic and who isn’t on an issue as trivial as a topic someone is voting for. And I certainly wouldn’t even want to enter that territory when I know I have my own sins/doubts I’m struggling with. And I’m sure you have that too.

To assert that Catholic Democrats support abortion is an assertion that is based in a non-existent two-dimensional world. Some Catholics may vote for Democrats because of government social programs; others may vote for Democrats simply because Obama enthuses charisma wherever he goes. That’s the reality. I have not seen a Catholic who actually votes for the Democrats because they want abortion, and if they did, they would have excommunicated themselves implicitly because they disagree with fundamental Church teaching. But such isn’t the case; Catholics vote for parties for all different kinds of reasons. The economy is the major issue across America, and no doubt some Catholics will be affected by the burgeoning recession. Some may vote for a politician with a good economic plan who just happens to support abortion (although may support it quietly). Why should XYZ Catholics be insulted by playground whines of “you’re not a real Catholic”?

If voters are to blame for abortion, then no doubt the Pope is as well. He could easily (and I mean that in the strongest sense of the word) excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion, and force them to apologize publicly when they repent. But no, no one here wants to talk about the Pope. It is us, Joe Public, who are at fault; never the Pope. The argument that Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion must necessarily lead to the claim that the Pope is as well. And if you disagree that the Pope is not blameworthy, then you must also disagree that a significant number of Catholic voters aren’t as well. Because I disagree that not all Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion, I also disagree that the Pope isn’t as well. Pick your stance.

P.S: If I were American, I wouldn’t be a Democrat. Most likely a Republican (depending on the candidate) because I’m considered to be more “right-wing” on the spectrum. But I won’t look down on Catholics who just happen to be Democrat.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

The worst thing that the nation could do to the poor and vulnerable is to fail to fix the debt crisis. In a depression or a hyperinflation, it is the poor who will suffer most.

A little bit incorrect. Inflation benefits debtors and punishes savers. Interest rates are kept artificially low by the Federal Reserve to benefit spendthrifts and those who live beyond their means, and expropriate from the more productive and thrifty savers.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Interesting and substantive take, I must say. So what people are saying here, in support of Republicans, is that it’s imperative to vote against Obama even if he’s a shoe-in and even if it’s against the personal grain, because the abortion issue trumps everything else? It’s true the Dems haven’t done squat for the poor that I can think of; but they haven’t taken away from them as the Repubs are proposing.

With the economy the way it is, I hardly think that Obama is a shoe in. Plus, he has done a pretty good job of alienating his hard left base and most of the independents. As a parallel, Jimmy Carter, in the 3rd year of his Administration, was enjoying populatity ratings in the mid-50s, end 1979 at 54%, higher than the current President. He had a big bump from the Camp David accords. Then he declared that the US dependence on foreign oil would never rise above the current levels of the time. Then there was the peak oil scare, and then interest rates hit 18% and unemployment was at 9%. Jimmy Carter’s legacy crashed in the first 6 months of 1980, and then a charismatic conservative Democrat turned Republican showed up and told America how awesome they were, and how thankful he was and proud he was of this country and blew Jimmy Carter away. I think there are alot of parallels between 1979 and 2011.

 

[RosalieM]

I’m not American, but I’ll ask one simple question: If the Republicans are so anti-abortion, why didn’t they just outlaw it during their tenure as the political party in power? What’s taking them so long/has took them so long?

It was illegal at one time.

The claim that “to be a Catholic, one needs to vote in favour of the sanctity of life”, is erroneous. To be a Catholic, you need to essentially believe in what is laid out in the Nicene Creed. You are entitled to your own opinions, but certainly not your own facts. Fortunately, no one here has the authority to claim who is Catholic and who isn’t on an issue as trivial as a topic someone is voting for. And I certainly wouldn’t even want to enter that territory when I know I have my own sins/doubts I’m struggling with. And I’m sure you have that too.

If a Catholic votes in support of someone who supports abortion, they are essentially condoning it.

To assert that Catholic Democrats support abortion is an assertion that is based in a non-existent two-dimensional world. Some Catholics may vote for Democrats because of government social programs; others may vote for Democrats simply because Obama enthuses charisma wherever he goes. That’s the reality. I have not seen a Catholic who actually votes for the Democrats because they want abortion, and if they did, they would have excommunicated themselves implicitly because they disagree with fundamental Church teaching. But such isn’t the case; Catholics vote for parties for all different kinds of reasons. The economy is the major issue across America, and no doubt some Catholics will be affected by the burgeoning recession. Some may vote for a politician with a good economic plan who just happens to support abortion (although may support it quietly). Why should XYZ Catholics be insulted by playground whines of “you’re not a real Catholic”?

As stated, support the supporter of abortion and you are supporting abortion

If voters are to blame for abortion, then no doubt the Pope is as well. He could easily (and I mean that in the strongest sense of the word) excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion, and force them to apologize publicly when they repent. But no, no one here wants to talk about the Pope. It is us, Joe Public, who are at fault; never the Pope. The argument that Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion must necessarily lead to the claim that the Pope is as well. And if you disagree that the Pope is not blameworthy, then you must also disagree that a significant number of Catholic voters aren’t as well. Because I disagree that not all Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion, I also disagree that the Pope isn’t as well. Pick your stance.

Pro-abortion politicians are refused communion. And please, don’t cast aspersions on the Pope. He’s doing everything in his power and beyond and considering all things involved. He is much more brilliant a theologian than you or I or most people.

P.S: If I were American, I wouldn’t be a Democrat. Most likely a Republican (depending on the candidate) because I’m considered to be more “right-wing” on the spectrum. But I won’t look down on Catholics who just happen to be Democrat.

Again, if you support the abortionist platform, you are supporting abortion.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[JimG]

A little bit incorrect. Inflation benefits debtors and punishes savers. Interest rates are kept artificially low by the Federal Reserve to benefit spendthrifts and those who live beyond their means, and expropriate from the more productive and thrifty savers.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Well, yes. The Fed’s current policy of free money does punish savers, chief among them those who buy U.S. government bonds, especially those foreign countries who buy it. Those nations are already worrying about how close the U.S. is to becoming insolvent.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

With the economy the way it is, I hardly think that Obama is a shoe in.

On one hand, depending on whom the GOP picks to run against him, he could be a shoo-in.

On the other hand, I’m with you. With the economy the way it is and with the right GOP candidate, he might not be the shoo-in the Dems figured on.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I’m not American, but I’ll ask one simple question: If the Republicans are so anti-abortion, why didn’t they just outlaw it during their tenure as the political party in power? What’s taking them so long/has took them so long?

The claim that “to be a Catholic, one needs to vote in favour of the sanctity of life”, is erroneous. To be a Catholic, you need to essentially believe in what is laid out in the Nicene Creed. You are entitled to your own opinions, but certainly not your own facts. Fortunately, no one here has the authority to claim who is Catholic and who isn’t on an issue as trivial as a topic someone is voting for. And I certainly wouldn’t even want to enter that territory when I know I have my own sins/doubts I’m struggling with. And I’m sure you have that too.

To assert that Catholic Democrats support abortion is an assertion that is based in a non-existent two-dimensional world. Some Catholics may vote for Democrats because of government social programs; others may vote for Democrats simply because Obama enthuses charisma wherever he goes. That’s the reality. I have not seen a Catholic who actually votes for the Democrats because they want abortion, and if they did, they would have excommunicated themselves implicitly because they disagree with fundamental Church teaching. But such isn’t the case; Catholics vote for parties for all different kinds of reasons. The economy is the major issue across America, and no doubt some Catholics will be affected by the burgeoning recession. Some may vote for a politician with a good economic plan who just happens to support abortion (although may support it quietly). Why should XYZ Catholics be insulted by playground whines of “you’re not a real Catholic”?

If voters are to blame for abortion, then no doubt the Pope is as well. He could easily (and I mean that in the strongest sense of the word) excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion, and force them to apologize publicly when they repent. But no, no one here wants to talk about the Pope. It is us, Joe Public, who are at fault; never the Pope. The argument that Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion must necessarily lead to the claim that the Pope is as well. And if you disagree that the Pope is not blameworthy, then you must also disagree that a significant number of Catholic voters aren’t as well. Because I disagree that not all Catholic voters are blameworthy of abortion, I also disagree that the Pope isn’t as well. Pick your stance.

P.S: If I were American, I wouldn’t be a Democrat. Most likely a Republican (depending on the candidate) because I’m considered to be more “right-wing” on the spectrum. But I won’t look down on Catholics who just happen to be Democrat.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Voting guidelines have been issued by the Bishops, by the Pope and they say it is ‘never licit’ and ‘gravely immoral’ to vote for a candidate or law that permits abortion of same sex marriage. I don’t ‘‘look down’’ on Catholic Democrats, I just think they are incredibly misguided, I think most are not regular mass goers, and I think they are attached to a Democrat party that does not exist anymore. The Democrat Party went from blue collar, pro life, and abandoned it, now secular, ideological and funded by the abortion lobby, and Hollywood. On issues of human life, faith, marriage the modern Democrat Party is the enemy of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

RosalieM:
Apologies I deleted my post Rosalie. I didn’t want to chance my account being suspended (I’ve seen many accounts get suspended because for willy-nilly things).

I won’t be posting on this thread again.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, I disagree that abortion must be banned by the laws of men. Women do not need the laws of men to tell then not to have abortions - no women WANTS to have an abortion. It is a violation of natural law. Women have abortions out of ignorance, fear and coercion. If laws are needed, it is to protect women from these things, not to strip us of our dignity, and take away the trust God has given to us and put it into the hands of government.

God gave to women the responsibility to protect the most vulnerable of humans - FOR A REASON. We are best suited for it. He trusts us - maybe you should too. Help us to do our job and we will do what we have always done - protect our babies.

You may not like the New Feminism - but here it is.

It makes no difference what I like ot dislike…abortion is the taking of innocent life and it should NT be legal. You would, of course, advocate that murder should be legalized, correct?

 

[RosalieM]

Voting guidelines have been issued by the Bishops, by the Pope and they say it is ‘never licit’ and ‘gravely immoral’ to vote for a candidate or law that permits abortion of same sex marriage. I don’t ‘‘look down’’ on Catholic Democrats, I just think they are incredibly misguided, I think most are not regular mass goers, and I think they are attached to a Democrat party that does not exist anymore. The Democrat Party went from blue collar, pro life, and abandoned it, now secular, ideological and funded by the abortion lobby, and Hollywood. On issues of human life, faith, marriage the modern Democrat Party is the enemy of the Catholic Church.

This is a very much on target statement.
To add to the Bishops’ and Pope’s statement, the humble Fr. Benedict Groeschel stated that those who vote for the candidate condoning abortion are sinning as long as that candidate is in office. You are so right about them being just incredibly misguided. The secular way is powerfully seductive.

 

[irishpatrick]

Seriously, have you read my posts? I have never said that any one issue was “greater than abortion”. I have said that Catholics should consider candidates’ positions on all the issues. Catholics should also weigh such factors as whether a candidate will be able (or willing in some cases) to actually carry out the policy positions he or she puts forth. After doing that, a Catholic may determine that it is proper to vote for the candidate with a worse position on abortion despite (but not because of) that position. That is what I have consistently said, and I believe that is perfectly consistent with what the Church teaches.

It seems like lots of people here agree. I would point out, for example, that the current leader of the poll on this thread is the most pro-choice candidate in the poll. The second most pro-choice candidate (Ron Paul) is currently in second place. The third place person (Cain) says he is pro-life, but has not said how that would effect his policies and he has said little to suggest it is a focus for his campaign. If all Catholics believed that the only discriminator is abortion, I would expect Paul and Cain to both be near the bottom and Santorum to be winning easily as I believe he is the only candidate whose position on abortion matches the Church’s position. But it appears that nearly all the Catholics voting here have found that issues other than abortion have influenced the way they rank these candidates.

The poll is close to meaningless…many Catholics choose to ignore the faith. If you vote a pro-abortion candidate, you are voting to keep abortion legal even if that is not your direct intent.

 

[RosalieM]

Apologies I deleted my post Rosalie. I didn’t want to chance my account being suspended (I’ve seen many accounts get suspended because for willy-nilly things).

I won’t be posting on this thread again.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Hope you think further about this, Bohm. God bless you!

 

[irishpatrick]

So, let’s just put this thread into perspective.

To be a Catholic, you need to vote Republican (according to yourself and a few others)? That, in essence, is what many here are trying to say.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

No, that is not even close to what I am saying, and I do not think anyone else is saying.

One cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate and still be a faithful Catholic! Parties are beside the point.

 

[RosalieM]

It makes no difference what I like ot dislike…abortion is the taking of innocent life and it should NT be legal. You would, of course, advocate that murder should be legalized, correct?

To add to your statement: If people were more aware of the way abortions were performed at different stages; perhaps they’d think again and reconsider their condoning it. How many women have chosen to give birth at the peril of their own lives?

 

[irishpatrick]

I decided that since I will not vote for anyone pro-abortion, and I can not stand the Republicans’ seeming disdain for the poor and vulnerable in society; well, I decided I ain’t gonna vote no more.
Yes, I realize I will be an “irresponsible citizen” by not voting; but I’ve decided it’s the lesser transgression.

And, that is your right to do so.

But, I must ask, why do you accept the left’s complete trashing of the GOP as some poor hating party? It is utter nonsense.

 

[RosalieM]

And, that is your right to do so.

But, I must ask, why do you accept the left’s complete trashing of the GOP as some poor hating party? It is utter nonsense.

Perhaps it is utter nonsense, granted. But neither party has holiness as its priority.

 

[irishpatrick]

Perhaps it is utter nonsense, granted. But neither party has holiness as its priority.

I agree…never said the GOP was holy, yet the picture painted by the left is like a cartoon…the GOP cares about the poor every bit as much (perhaps more) then does the left…they just have a different idea as to how to help them.

 

[RosalieM]

I’m finished with politics.