Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

[Rence]

I do not understand how so many Catholics can support a man who attacks the family and the unborn. You do not need to understand why the Church holds the position it does; it opposes it. So why do you oppose the Church?

Without human beings, there is no Church, no government, no economy, no civilization - no humanity. All the jewels in the world and all the euros or dollars on Wall Street are fruitless and useless without human beings to make use of them.

As for myself, I am undecided at the moment; I need to do some research (although that Ron Paul fellow’s looking pretty good).

But I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate. Man makes the economy; economy does not make the man.

I am not in opposition of the Church. And I will ignore people who claim I am opposing the Church if I vote for a candidate they don’t approve of. Vote with your conscience and I will vote with mine. And I’m sure everyone will do the same.

 

[Rence]

For a Catholic, abortion is the top of the list of priorities among the current issues in the United States. Assuming, as in virtually all elections, that there isn’t an extraordinarily poor candidate such as someone who supports bringing totalitarianism to America, then it is hard to justify voting for a pro-choice candidate. Catholics who vote pro-choice may do so, but the hierarchy they submit themselves to has grave reservations about the idea that an economic issue can outweigh fifty-million murders and counting.

I agree that it’s at the top, and I think most do too. But it’s not the only.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Why don’t they do it with alcohol then? Do you know how many “societal problems” are cause by the availability of alcoholic beverages? WHy is one mind altering substance more “moral” than another?

Partly, no doubt, because alcohol isn’t inherently addictive. One can become addicted to all sorts of things that aren’t inherently addictive (sex for instance) but that does not mean it’s appropriate to ban everything to which outliers might possibly become addicted.

 

[addictedkoala]

I agree that it’s at the top, and I think most do too. But it’s not the only.

What are the other issues which top 50 million murders? This is not polemical, I am not a Republican or Democrat and certainly not conservative economically. I just am curious.

 

[Rence]

What are the other issues which top 50 million murders? This is not polemical, I am not a Republican or Democrat and certainly not conservative economically. I just am curious.

I just did. See my other posts (899, 901, 903, 905, 907). I realize that you don’t agree with me, and that’s okay. But I’ve already discussed a few issues that will help decide my vote.

 

[addictedkoala]

I just did. See my other posts. I realize that you don’t agree with me, and that’s okay. But I’ve already discussed a few issues that will help decide my vote.

It doesn’t matter what I think, what matters is the bishop’s statements which disagree with that. If you want to contradict them it is unfortunate, but sadly not uncommon and I’m not going to convince you to listen to the Church’s wisdom on a forum.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Partly, no doubt, because alcohol isn’t inherently addictive. One can become addicted to all sorts of things that aren’t inherently addictive (sex for instance) but that does not mean it’s appropriate to ban everything to which outliers might possibly become addicted.

Like most central nervous system depressants, ethyl alcohol is one of the most notoriously addictive substances on the planet.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Like most central nervous system depressants, ethyl alcohol is one of the most notoriously addictive substances on the planet.

Nonsense. People have consumed alcohol for millenia. Some few become addicted. Most don’t.

 

[Rence]

It doesn’t matter what I think, what matters is the bishop’s statements which disagree with that. If you want to contradict them it is unfortunate, but sadly not uncommon and I’m not going to convince you to listen to the Church’s wisdom on a forum.

Yeah, you’re probably right. Especially when I have the US Bishops guidelines and my parish priests to help me out. Likewise, I don’t expect to, nor do I wish to, change your mind. But at the very least we might come to understand each other

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Nonsense. People have consumed alcohol for millenia. Some few become addicted. Most don’t.

I agree. Addiction is tied more, I believe, to a predeliction, often genetic, towards alcoholism.

 

[Rence]

Nonsense. People have consumed alcohol for millenia. Some few become addicted. Most don’t.

You’re right. I never did understand why people wanted to make alcohol illegal.

And I suppose if it were made illegal, then churches would be exempt from that law and allowed to have and ditribute it in the form of Communion, right?

What if a doctor wrote an order allowing someone to consume it? I wonder if that would be okay, or if it would be subject to a law that makes alcohol illegal. And before I get a plethora of denials, doctors do write orders for them, especially in nursing homes, which are state regulated.

 

[ishii]

pnewton;7928611:

I actually ignored the question because I do not vote for pro-abortion Democrats. Therefore I do not understand the logic of the question.

Also, can you tell me when America operated with more than two significant parties? i.e. an election when the 3rd party actually had a chance to win? Examples please.

There was a time a 3rd party candidate had a chance to win…1912. Not to be a pain, as it is not exactly a recent election, but the question was asked and I am a history nerd…

jfmarm, the Bull Moose party in the 1912 election wasn’t so much a 3rd party as it was Teddy Roosevelt bolting from the Republican party because he didn’t get the nomination. This was all about the personality of TR - not some indication that 3rd parties can be successful. And all TR’s candidacy did was split the Republican vote and give the election to Wilson. That is one thing that 3rd parties can do - they can make life a little difficult for the two main parties, as Perot did to Bush in 1992, and Nader did to Gore (to a lesser extent) in 2000. But what did the Progressive party do in later elections without TR? Nothing noteworthy. I guess 1912 would be like if in 1984 Reagan had been denied the GOP nomination and run as a membe of the conservative party.

Ishii

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Fear? The government is supposed to free us from all of life’s fears? Does anyone really think government can deliver that?

We are born to die, and every last one of us will. Some will die peacefully, and some will die horribly, and there is no way out of that fear. We rightly fear crossing a busy street when we see someone speeding toward us. Will he stop?

Do we not fear for our children; that they will be accosted by some malefactor; that they will develop complexes, diseases, addictions or simply fail to succeed in life? The wholesale throwing of money at “education” tells us one of the metrics of our fears.

And does anyone really think middle class welfare will end fear? Ever talk to a bureaucrat about his career; how it might get sidetracked, how he might not ever achieve the GS level to which he aspires, how he has some higherup who simply doesn’t think he cuts it, and makes that clear?

And do you not think the most protected union man in the country doesn’t fear his company’s potential move to China? Do you really think this government has the ability, or even the willingness, to make that fear go away?

When we go to the doctor and our blood count is “off” what it ought to be, what do we fear? Do we fear the insurance company or the myriad of conditions, some deadly, that might turn up in the next round of tests? Do we not fear the mysterious, deep pain that awakes us at 3:00 a.m.?

Human life is fraught with fear, and it’s fear that motivates most of us to do those things that are useful, sometimes even heroic.

Those who greatly fear being left behind because of their looks, their marital status or whatever, might greatly reduce the basis for fear by being useful. The more useful one is to others, the less one has a basis for the more ordinary kinds of fear. And, of course, one who trusts in God’s Providence, fears least of all.

And, one might hazard to say that we will never build a society in which there is nothing to fear. We left that aspiration behind long ago and, after all, God placed an angel with a sword of flame at the gates of Eden lest we think somehow that, by our efforts we’ll manage to return.

This is a wonderful, inspired response!

In fact, I copied it and emailed it to myself.

I don’t wan’t to change the subject, but people need to get back to basics.

Focus on food, clothing and shelter and invoking God at every opportunity … ten times a day.

My wife enjoys a television program called: “Man, Woman, Wild” … it’s a survival program similar to Les Stroud’s program “Survivor Man”. What you do is focus on the basics and don’t take silly risks like that Bear Gryllis does.

Once the basics are taken care of, “Improve your hootch”. Basically, work to fix your house. You don’t need granite counter tops or stainless steel appliances. You don’t need a NEW car. Improve your skills. Home school.

The idea of fear is so misplaced. Life is unfair. Life is uncertain. Always was, and always will be. Government cannot fix life. Government can only take a large chunk of your work effort and prevent you from improving your situation by imposing artificial restrictions.

 

[Rence]

This is a wonderful, inspired response!

In fact, I copied it and emailed it to myself.

I don’t wan’t to change the subject, but people need to get back to basics.

Focus on food, clothing and shelter and invoking God at every opportunity … ten times a day.

My wife enjoys a television program called: “Man, Woman, Wild” … it’s a survival program similar to Les 's program “Survivor Man”. What you do is focus on the basics and don’t take silly risks like that Bear Gryllis does.

Once the basics are taken care of, “Improve your hootch”. Basically, work to fix your house. You don’t need granite counter tops or stainless steel appliances. You don’t need a NEW car.

The idea of fear is so misplaced. Life is unfair. Life is uncertain. Always was, and always will be. Government cannot fix life. Government can only take a large chunk of your work effort and prevent you from improving your situation by imposing artificial restrictions.

Many of us do focus on the basics when we vote: food, clothing, shelter…all provided by having a job, and when one doens’t have a job, other resources like the goverment for one. The basics are so very important.

Yes, life is unfair, and life is uncertain, and always was and always will be. Death is all around us and that won’t change either. But when these things are said to those who vote with the basics in mind, keep in mind, the same can be said to those who vote with abortion as their single issue. Government can’t fix it as long as there is a market for it.

 

[ishii]

I actually ignored the question because I do not vote for pro-abortion Democrats. Therefore I do not understand the logic of the question.

.

Okay, let me try it this way: You said that the Republicans “maintained the status quo of Roe V Wade.” Pretty hard to overturn Roe V Wade when you have Democrat catholics like Biden, Kennedy, et al blocking the nomination of Bork who would have been the 5th vote to overturn. Also, its pretty hard to overturn Roe V Wade when every Democrat nominated justice is a rock solid pro-Roe V Wade vote. So how are the Republicans “maintaining the status quo?”

Ishii

 

[addictedkoala]

Yes, life is unfair, and life is uncertain, and always was and always will be. Death is all around us and that won’t change either. But when these things are said to those who vote with the basics in mind, keep in mind, the same can be said to those who vote with abortion as their single issue. Government can’t fix it as long as there is a market for it.

This may be true, but remember that abortion should be illegal on the grounds that it is intrinsically evil and violates our most fundamental right (the “basics” so to speak), not because we are so naive as to believe no one will try to procure one anyway. This is not to say, as I’ve indicated earlier, that we shouldn’t try to fix the other underlying problems that cause people to turn to abortion, but that there is another priority that the successors to the apostles have given us. This is the same as any other law, people will steal regardless of it’s illegal and we need to do our best to relieve the demand for theft that drives many in poverty to commit it. But at the same time the first thing is to make it illegal in law.

 

[Rence]

This may be true, but remember that abortion should be illegal on the grounds that it is intrinsically evil and violates our most fundamental right (the “basics” so to speak), not because we are so naive as to believe no one will try to procure one anyway. This is not to say, as I’ve indicated earlier, that we shouldn’t try to fix the other underlying problems that cause people to turn to abortion, but that there is another priority that the successors to the apostles have given us. This is the same as any other law, people will steal regardless of it’s illegal and we need to do our best to relieve the demand for theft that drives many in poverty to commit it. But at the same time the first thing is to make it illegal in law.

If it were the same as any other law, such as stealing or murder, it would be. But it’s not now. But I do support your right to lobby for such a law.

 

[Sir_Knight]

abortion is not my single most important ever in the world issue.

For a Catholic in good-standing with the Church, it is one of the top five.

 

[Rence]

For a Catholic in good-standing with the Church, it is one of the top five.

And a very important issue it is, even one of the top five most important issues, but that still does not make it the only issue.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Nonsense. People have consumed alcohol for millenia. Some few become addicted. Most don’t.

People have been using cannibis for millenia and has more documented medicinal qualities than alcohol and is even less addictive. Plus, how often have you heard of a father using cannibis and then beating his kids?