Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

[addictedkoala]

If it were the same as any other law, such as stealing or murder, it would be. But it’s not now.

I’m afraid I don’t understand this. Do you mean insofar as it’s controversial?

 

[Ridgerunner]

People have been using cannibis for millenia and has more documented medicinal qualities than alcohol and is even less addictive. Plus, how often have you heard of a father using cannibis and then beating his kids?

We’re veering well off topic here, but let me say I have known a goodly number of cannabis “stoners” in my time, and if it isn’t addictive, it’s surely the next thing to it, and a father who uses it regularly harms his children in many, many ways.

 

[ishii]

Also, can you tell me when America operated with more than two significant parties? i.e. an election when the 3rd party actually had a chance to win? Examples please.

Ishii

pnewton wrote: " Abraham Lincoln’s first victory was in a field of four (as did Jackson). While the Democratic Party has been around from the beginning, the Republican Party has not. However, I would like to add that I do not see 2012 as being the final election in the United States. Therefore, I try to maintain historical perspective. "

The 1860 election, with the country on the brink of civil war and the political situation fractured into bits is hardly the example to apply generally. The Republican party grew out of the ashes of the Whig party. The Republican party wasn’t a 3rd party but a replacement of the Whig party. For a while there were other parties - the No Nothing party (!) that also competed for remnants of the old Whig party. But soon things settled down into the two party system we’ve had since the beginning and continue to have to this day.

As for Jackson’s victory being in a field of four - the election of 1828 was between him and John Quincy Adams alone. The 1832 election was between Jackson and Clay. A guy named Wirt - on the Anti-Mason ticket won a whopping 7.8 percent of the vote. The fourth guy, John Floyd, wasn’t even a candidate but he somehow got the votes of South Carolina in a fluke of history. Winning in a large field means nothing if only two candidate have a chance of winning. Obama won in a field of six, but it was between McCain and Obama.

Ishii

 

[Gift_from_God]

Waterboarding did not occur at Guantanamo

Yes it did

And people didn’t die from waterboarding.

Yes, people did

When we are talking about abortions we are talking about the deliberate mass murder of thousands of babies. Many by being torn literally limb from limb. There is absolutely no comparison.

Of course there is. It’s murder. Murder is murder

 

[Gift_from_God]

Senator Ted Kennedy led the fight, successfully, to prevent the worker from owning his or her own medical insurance policy. HSAs are SEVERELY restricted because of him … he did it personally. [HSA + catastrophic + high risk pool + full tax deductions + full tax credits … all forbidden by the Feds and some states.]

Abortion for Republicans is a REAL issue, not a campaignissueonly:

PRO-LIFE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

1. Appointed Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. The appointments resulted in the upholding of the federal partial-birth abortion ban by a 5-4 decision.
2. Reinstituted the Mexico City Policy, begun by the Reagan Administration and reversed by the Clinton Administration (when Congress tried to reinstitute the policy, Clinton vetoed the bill), that bars foreign aid funding to groups that perform or advocate for abortions. In 2003, the Bush Administration expanded the Mexico City Policy to include not just funds dispensed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), but also the State Department.
3. Discouraged advancement of pro-abortion legislation by announcing early in his administration that he would veto legislation that threatened pro-life policy.
4. Signed the Born-Alive Infant Protection Act, which made it a federal crime not to treat babies who survive abortion.
5. Signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban of 2003.
6. Signed Unborn Victims of Violence Act, recognizing the unborn child as a separate crime victim if injured or killed during an assault.
7. Cut off all federal funds to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) for its involvement in China’s one-child policy which includes forced abortion and sterilization. President Bush sent a fact-finding mission to China which found that the nation’s one-child policy was indeed coercive in nature and that the UNFPA was an integral part of implementing that policy, placing the UNFPA in clear violation of the Kemp-Kasten Amendment that prohibits any aid to any program that involves forced abortion or forced sterilization. Tens of millions of dollars that otherwise would have gone to the UNFPA were redirected to maternal and child health programs.
8. Thwarted efforts at the United Nations to promote abortion by instructing U.S. delegates to state at every appropriate opportunity that America does not regard anything in any document before the U.N. to establish any international right to abortion.
9. Issued Executive Order banning the use of new lines of embryonic stem cells in federally funded experiments. Later vetoed legislation passed by Congress to permit federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
10. Signed the Stem Cell Therapeutic and Research Act of 2005, which will fund research using umbilical cord and adult stem cells. The measure provides funding to increase the inventory of cord blood units available to match and treat patients and to link cord blood banks so that doctors have a single source to search for cord blood and bone marrow matches. It also reauthorizes the National Bone Marrow Registry.
11. Launched public awareness of adoption campaign, working with the National Council for Adoption and pregnancy help centers across the country. The campaign sponsored conferences encouraging faith based communities to promote adoption and produced public service announcements featuring the First Lady urging the adoption of foster children.
12. Established the first federal government and national website listing and showing children available for adoption across the country (www.AdoptUSKids.org).
13. Increased the tax credit for adoption related expenses from $5,000 to $10,000; for special needs children, the credit was raised from $5,000 for qualified adoption related expenses to $10,000 for any adoption related expenses. This was done as part of the President’s tax relief bill.
14. Annually declared Sanctity of Human Life Day.
15. Issued a federal regulation allowing states to include unborn children in the federal/state S-CHIP program, which provides health insurance for children in poor families. This allowed states to include pre-natal care in the health insurance they offer to poor children under the program.
16. The Bush Administration did what it could to stop assisted suicide from taking further hold in Oregon. The state of Oregon passed an assisted suicide law that allows doctors to prescribe federally controlled drugs in lethal amounts to certain of their patients who say they want to die. Federal law holds that federally controlled drugs may only be prescribed for legitimate medical purposes. During the Clinton Administration, Attorney General Janet Reno decreed that assisted suicide was a legitimate medical purpose in those states that permit it.

During the Bush Administration, Attorney General John Ashcroft changed that ruling, saying that assisted suicide was not a legitimate medical purpose, thereby barring doctors from prescribing lethal drugs. A lawsuit was filed and ultimately, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of allowing the drugs to be used for assisted suicide.

1. Signed legislation making it possible for a federal court to hear whether Terri Schiavo’s constitutional rights had been violated by being denied hydration and nutrition.
2. Dramatically increased funding for abstinence education through the Department of Health and Human Services, although Congress did not approve the full amount the Bush Administration requested.

George Bush was the worst President since Buchanan. We really shouldn’t be praising him

 

[Gift_from_God]

Bush had a torture policy?

I never heard of them using the iron maiden like Hussein did.

Where have you been since 9/11? The George Bush admitted he authorized torture and Dick Cheney is claiming that torture caught Bin Laden. They admitted to it

 

[pnewton]

jfmarm81;7929935:

jfmarm, the Bull Moose party in the 1912 election wasn’t so much a 3rd party as it was Teddy Roosevelt bolting from the Republican party because he didn’t get the nomination. This was all about the personality of TR - not some indication that 3rd parties can be successful. And all TR’s candidacy did was split the Republican vote and give the election to Wilson. That is one thing that 3rd parties can do - they can make life a little difficult for the two main parties, as Perot did to Bush in 1992, and Nader did to Gore (to a lesser extent) in 2000. But what did the Progressive party do in later elections without TR? Nothing noteworthy. I guess 1912 would be like if in 1984 Reagan had been denied the GOP nomination and run as a membe of the conservative party.

Ishii

So which party was the third party in 1912? The Republicans. Taft finished a distant third in the voting. Were all the Republicans who voted for Taft wrong because they split the voter from Roosevelt, or is is just Roosevelt who was wrong for splitting the vote from Taft, even though he was a much more viable candidate?

I think there is no good moral answer because I think the initial premise is flawed. At the very least, it is not Catholic teaching.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Most people I know on food stamps are in no danger of starving.

But have you seen 100% of people on food stamps? No. Hence, you wouldn’t know if they are in danger of starving

 

[pnewton]

Okay, let me try it this way: You said that the Republicans “maintained the status quo of Roe V Wade.” Pretty hard to overturn Roe V Wade when you have Democrat catholics like Biden, Kennedy, et al blocking the nomination of Bork who would have been the 5th vote to overturn. Also, its pretty hard to overturn Roe V Wade when every Democrat nominated justice is a rock solid pro-Roe V Wade vote. So how are the Republicans “maintaining the status quo?”

Ishii

I remember how Bush made it clear that he was not going to use a Roe v. Wade litmus test on his nominations. I also remember that it was Kennedy (Reagan’s appointment) that voted to maintain Roe v. Wade. One of the definitions of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. Abortion will always be my highest factor in voting. I am not convinced that it is for the Republican Party, or more to the point, for all Republican candidates.

 

[Gift_from_God]

I want liberals to leave my state alone, but I reckon a tyrant can be a tyrant and not realize it, he’s just trying to help, right? Problem is, this country is full of tyrants who can not leave other people be.

It’s insulting to call liberals tyrants

Martin Luther King Jr. really wanted state intervention regarding segregation. Is he a tyrant to you?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I remember how Bush made it clear that he was not going to use a Roe v. Wade litmus test on his nominations. I also remember that it was Kennedy (Reagan’s appointment) that voted to maintain Roe v. Wade. One of the definitions of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. Abortion will always be my highest factor in voting. I am not convinced that it is for the Republican Party, or more to the point, for all Republican candidates.

Nevertheless, Bush appointed two justices who are reasonably regarded as prolife. Obama appointed two who are reasonably regarded as pro-abortion. Kennedy notwithstanding, it has to be admitted that EVERY prolife justice is a Repub appointee, while EVERY Dem appointee is pro-abortion.

 

[ishii]

ishii;7930700:

So which party was the third party in 1912? The Republicans. Taft finished a distant third in the voting. Were all the Republicans who voted for Taft wrong because they split the voter from Roosevelt, or is is just Roosevelt who was wrong for splitting the vote from Taft, even though he was a much more viable candidate?

I think there is no good moral answer because I think the initial premise is flawed. At the very least, it is not Catholic teaching.

Of course our two party system can be temporarily disrupted by a personality such as TR as it was in 1912. But who ran as a 3rd party candidate in 1916? In 1920? We went back to Democrat vs Republican.

I wouldn’t pass judgement on the voters of 1912. But I would say that TR bolting from the GOP and running on his own virtually guarenteed the victory of Wilson. For anyone wishing to defeat Wilson, the division of the GOP between Taft and TR was certainly a bad thing. In 1976, Reagan came close to grabbing the nomination away from Ford but even in defeat he ended up supporting Ford because he knew that defeating Carter was more important that making a political point. I doubt TR, a former president would have entertained the idea of a compromise with Taft.

I believe that McCain, while he was flawed, was clearly the right choice for Catholics given Obama’s stand on abortion, stem cell research, etc.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I remember how Bush made it clear that he was not going to use a Roe v. Wade litmus test on his nominations. I also remember that it was Kennedy (Reagan’s appointment) that voted to maintain Roe v. Wade. One of the definitions of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. Abortion will always be my highest factor in voting. I am not convinced that it is for the Republican Party, or more to the point, for all Republican candidates.

pnewton, Reagan tried to get Bork on the bench, then Douglas Ginsburg, and finally had to settle with Anthony Kennedy. He knew his options with a senate controlled by guys like Teddy Kennedy smearing Bork:

“Robert Bork’s America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens’ doors in midnight raids, schoolchildren could not be taught about evolution, writers and artists could be censored at the whim of the Government, and the doors of the Federal courts would be shut on the fingers of millions of citizens”

The Democrat catholics in the Senate gave us Kennedy, pnewton, not Reagan. But you are right, there is no guarentee that a Republican nominated justice will vote to overturn Roe V Wade. But there is also a 100% chance that the Democrat nominated justice will uphold the decision. Clarence Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Roberts are all solid justices and I wouldn’t be surprised if the decision was overturned by all of them and a new justice nominated by a Republican who won in 2012. Never give up.

Ishii

 

[Holly3278]

I will vote for Sarah Palin if she runs.

 

[ishii]

I will vote for Sarah Palin if she runs.

I don’t think she’d be the strongest candidate but if she runs I’d support her in a heartbeat over Obama.

Ishii

 

[imbroglio]

The fact that 26 states are challenging the constitutionality of the so called “Health Insurance Reform” law means that it isn’t some “silly little contribution”.

They are trying to challenge it at a constitutional level. I doubt they will be successful. The Republicans have worked hard to get their base to say they don’t like it and want it repealed. If people actually knew how they benefited from the reform the Republicans would be shown the door and their blind allegiance to big corporations like the insurance industry would be exposed. Don’t worry though, it probably won’t happen.

 

[Sir_Knight]

And a very important issue it is, even one of the top five most important issues, but that still does not make it the only issue.

But it is a NON-NEGOTIABLE issue along with Euthanasia, Fetal Stem Cell Research, Human Cloning & Homosexual “Marriage”. These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and it is a serious sin to endorse or promote any of these actions.

 

[addictedkoala]

But it is a NON-NEGOTIABLE issue along with Euthanasia, Fetal Stem Cell Research, Human Cloning & Homosexual “Marriage”. These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and it is a serious sin to endorse or promote any of these actions.

Not that I disagree with you over the moral seriousness of those issues, but that is not entirely correct as there could theoretically be a candidate who is pro-life but unsuitable compared to someone pro-choice. Official documents make this clear. No matter how rare it may happen in reality, it could at least in theory be negotiable.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Not that I disagree with you over the moral seriousness of those issues, but that is not entirely correct as there could theoretically be a candidate who is pro-life but unsuitable compared to someone pro-choice. Official documents make this clear. No matter how rare it may happen in reality, it could at least in theory be negotiable.

Supporting Church references for your conclusion, please.

 

[Ridgerunner]

They are trying to challenge it at a constitutional level. I doubt they will be successful. The Republicans have worked hard to get their base to say they don’t like it and want it repealed. If people actually knew how they benefited from the reform the Republicans would be shown the door and their blind allegiance to big corporations like the insurance industry would be exposed. Don’t worry though, it probably won’t happen.

Do you not wonder why the insurance companies got “on board” with Obamacare? Do you think the inclusion of government subsidies for insurance premiums that are absolutely guaranteed to go up had anything to do with it?

And how big do you think the “Republican base” really is? It’s far short of the percentage of people who disapprove of Obamacare.