Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

[Big_Ro]

We have become a country of ‘me, me, me, it’s all mine, leave me alone’.

Yes, I think you are absolutely right on this Prodigal. This sort of ideology is more akin to the teachings Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ. In her famous work, “Atlas Shrugged” Rands hero, John Galt, emeres as the ideal man. The Man of the Mind. The world and its creative capacity depend on him. Rand envisions him as the true God-Man. The God of total free will and self absorption and the vain and egotistical pursuit of self interest above all others.

We, followers of Christ, know that the real God-man came to preach the good news to the poor. Jesus was and is the real God-man, the Logos indeed. The very word of God made flesh. God’s word is Love, not selfishness. He was anything but a man of the mind. Rather, he is a loving and merciful God. A God that sent his only son to preach and embody the truth of human dependence on God. Jesus preached the virtues of forebearance, of mercy, of unconditional love, of self-abnegation.

Where is Rand’s hero compassion for the poor? Oh, yeah, he’s praying at the alter of lassez-faire capitalism. He subscribes to the juvenile ideal of objectivism. We should free the poor, the sick, and the elderly to find the magic of self-reliance rather than the rely on the compassion and goodwill of their fellow man. If they die while learning this ideal, then ideal says so be it. There is a fork in the road. Which one will you take?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

My vote will be going to either Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain or Rick Santorum.

 

[estesbob]

Another point I’d like to make, that makes me think your argument fails. Abortion, by voting, or politicizing, that issue aren’t we forcing others into the same situation as our beliefs?

.

No. We are protecting life

 

[ishii]

Among their other more personal reasons for hating him.

Such as?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No. We are protecting life

You left part of my quote out.

Whether it’s to stop the taking of innocent life, or paying more to the benefit of others, we are voting to affect others.

Everyone on this thread has expressed a value to life, the difference is that some value life for all, from birth to natural death. That includes a dignity of life for everyone, and some of us believe it to be even at the expense of others, including ourselves.

 

[estesbob]

You left part of my quote out.

Everyone on this thread has expressed a value to life, the difference is that some value life for all, from birth to natural death. That includes a dignity of life for everyone, and some of us believe it to be even at the expense of others, including ourselves.

So if I don’t agree with the social programs you suppot that means I don’t support the dignity of life

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So if I don’t agree with the social programs you suppot that means I don’t support the dignity of life

estesbob, to be perfectly honest, I’ve only seen you speak of a ‘single issue’. You’ve also taken a lot of opportunities to imply that others support abortion, which is not true. I have not seen a single person post on this thread say that they supported abortion, even those that support Obama. If I’m mistaken, show me who said they specifically voted for Obama, or plan to vote for Obama,because of his support of abortion.

Like you, everyone has tried to express their reason(s) for supporting the candidate they spoke about. It seems everyone is weighing the issues and voting according to how their faith form consciences lead them to. As for what you actually support I, like EVERYONE, on this thread cannot see in another person’s heart, and I, again like EVERYONE else, are not to judge others. There is only one that can do that.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Free will is the ultimate charity and voting to share what we have is by free will.

We? Well, come on over sometime, I’ll show you what I have and then you can decide what I can afford to give up…oh, it’s just so much easier to cast a vote without ever having to know what “we” have isn’t it? You don’t have a clue about who “we” is but your more than willing to spend our money?

Was Peter being Marxist when He dealt with Ananias and Saphira? Of course not.

So, if I don’t tell you everything I have I’m going to die on the spot? Of course not. There is a bit of difference in promoting 300 million to live as a collective in a monastery, and a dozen or so freely giving their life up to God.

I grew up poor, not realizing we were poor. The majority of my married life, I’ve been married since 1975, we have been poor. We are far from wealthy now, but feel we have been blessed.

Which is exactly where I am. Although I have no desire to promote the use of force to take what you and your wife have accumulated over the years to prop me and my wife up. I hope, by living a frugal honest life, that someday I will be where you are.

This is what using the ‘single issue’ sounds like to some. ‘Voting to stop abortion is doing God’s work! Voting to care for the poor, the hungry, the sick, or homeless is not?’

Voting to stop abortion is not the same thing. An overwhelming number of people agree that murder is wrong, you don’t have to believe in God to agree with that statement. The problem is getting the left to believe that an unborn child is still a human. Then their are those who think, “well I would never get an abortion but I wouldn’t stop a woman from doing what she want’s to her body.”

Voting to care for the poor, the hungry and the sick would be great if A) you kept it in your state. or B) we were all saints, a giant collective of nuns and priests who did no wrong.

If one is legislating morality, so is the other. We are forcing people to comply with God’s will, and that’s something God doesn’t do Himself, even though we all agree He most certainly could. The difference lies in the accusations made against those that weigh all the issues, as their faith form consciences lead them. Look at the very discussion between the two of us in the last few posts. I was accused of using a point of view to justify abortion. I was accused of being willing to pay more taxes to ‘feel good’. Both are very untrue. Read through this entire thread and see those type accusations laid against our fellow Christian brothers and sisters. I have not seen one person who stated they support Obama say they were supporting him in support of abortion.

Abortion = Murder, it’s simple. I don’t even agree that the federal government should outlaw it, but that it should be up to the states to do so. Just like most murders are not against federal law.

We both agree that God has given us free will. The difference is, I do not believe it is my place to play secondary God and determine how much of that free will you are allowed to use.

We can all agree, regardless of faith or lack thereof, that certain things are just wrong. And should be against the law. You have determined that using politicians to distribute money is a charitable thing, and forcing me into that belief. I think that in and of itself is wrong.

 

[estesbob]

estesbob, to be perfectly honest, I’ve only seen you speak of a ‘single issue’. You’ve also taken a lot of opportunities to imply that others support abortion, which is not true. I have not seen a single person post on this thread say that they supported abortion, even those that support Obama. If I’m mistaken, show me who said they specifically voted for Obama, or plan to vote for Obama,because of his support of abortion.

Like you, everyone has tried to express their reason(s) for supporting the candidate they spoke about. It seems everyone is weighing the issues and voting according to how their faith form consciences lead them to. As for what you actually support I, like EVERYONE, on this thread cannot see in another person’s heart, and I, again like EVERYONE else, are not to judge others. There is only one that can do that.

We are in a Catholic forum and I am expressing the teachings of the Church. You can not vote for a pro- abortion canidate under the guise you didnt vote for him because he supported abortin and you can’t vote for him because you believe he is just marvelous on social issues, economic issues, military issues or any combination of them

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

What would you call everyone selling all their things and dispensing to each, according to their needs?

Marxism

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We? Well, come on over sometime, I’ll show you what I have and then you can decide what I can afford to give up…oh, it’s just so much easier to cast a vote without ever having to know what “we” have isn’t it? You don’t have a clue about who “we” is but your more than willing to spend our money?

So, if I don’t tell you everything I have I’m going to die on the spot? Of course not. There is a bit of difference in promoting 300 million to live as a collective in a monastery, and a dozen or so freely giving their life up to God.

Which is exactly where I am. Although I have no desire to promote the use of force to take what you and your wife have accumulated over the years to prop me and my wife up. I hope, by living a frugal honest life, that someday I will be where you are.

I guess you missed where I said ‘of course not’ when using the example of Peter and Ananias and Saphira.

When I say my wife and I feel blessed, you seem to think it more than what it is. We live very modestly, yet we recognize how much more we have than many, many people.

Voting to stop abortion is not the same thing. An overwhelming number of people agree that murder is wrong, you don’t have to believe in God to agree with that statement. The problem is getting the left to believe that an unborn child is still a human. Then their are those who think, “well I would never get an abortion but I wouldn’t stop a woman from doing what she want’s to her body.”

Voting to care for the poor, the hungry and the sick would be great if A) you kept it in your state. or B) we were all saints, a giant collective of nuns and priests who did no wrong.

Abortion = Murder, it’s simple. I don’t even agree that the federal government should outlaw it, but that it should be up to the states to do so. Just like most murders are not against federal law.

We both agree that God has given us free will. The difference is, I do not believe it is my place to play secondary God and determine how much of that free will you are allowed to use.

We can all agree, regardless of faith or lack thereof, that certain things are just wrong. And should be against the law. You have determined that using politicians to distribute money is a charitable thing, and forcing me into that belief. I think that in and of itself is wrong.

Abortion is wrong. I, and a great number of other people, also believe it is wrong to watch the hungry go without food, homeless to go without shelter, sick go without healthcare, etc.etc. etc.

You keep saying that the ‘social programs’ are forcing you, through taxation. Aren’t we forcing those, who also have free will, to stop sinning by abortions? You said:

The difference is, I do not believe it is my place to play secondary God and determine how much of that free will you are allowed to use.

I’m sure there are people who would say we are using politicians to distribute our morality. The difference seems to be, forcing social programs will take away from ‘me’.

You speak of sharing through our democratic government as if it’s wrong. Believe me when I say I live modestly and on a budget. I should give money, through politicians, to the rich so that money can ‘trickle’ down to everyone else? I should say it’s okay for the sick to go without healthcare, the hungry to go without food, or the homeless to go without shelter? Everyone should take care of themselves! I’m sorry, I cannot see where that is taught as a part of Christian living. Yes abortion is wrong. It’s also wrong to live in a great country and watch people suffer; because of hunger, homelessness, lack of healthcare, etc. etc.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Yes, I think you are absolutely right on this Prodigal. This sort of ideology is more akin to the teachings Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ. In her famous work, “Atlas Shrugged” Rands hero, John Galt, emeres as the ideal man. The Man of the Mind. The world and its creative capacity depend on him. Rand envisions him as the true God-Man. The God of total free will and self absorption and the vain and egotistical pursuit of self interest above all others.

We, followers of Christ, know that the real God-man came to preach the good news to the poor. Jesus was and is the real God-man, the Logos indeed. The very word of God made flesh. God’s word is Love, not selfishness. He was anything but a man of the mind. Rather, he is a loving and merciful God. A God that sent his only son to preach and embody the truth of human dependence on God. Jesus preached the virtues of forebearance, of mercy, of unconditional love, of self-abnegation.

Where is Rand’s hero compassion for the poor? Oh, yeah, he’s praying at the alter of lassez-faire capitalism. He subscribes to the juvenile ideal of objectivism. We should free the poor, the sick, and the elderly to find the magic of self-reliance rather than the rely on the compassion and goodwill of their fellow man. If they die while learning this ideal, then ideal says so be it. There is a fork in the road. Which one will you take?

We have not become a country of me, me, me. We started out as a country of me, me, me and have become a country of yours, yours, yours.

When it’s just me, me, me and I’m feeling blessed by what I have. I tend to give a lot more. But unfortunately, when things are tough, I have to pull back wherever I can.

I think we are all better off, when we tend to our own flock and assist others when we can. Most of my immediate family lives within walking distance of each other, we have a garden that we have all worked on and we go and take from it as we need.

When there is more food on the vine than we can use, we take it to other relatives if we can get to it before it goes bad.

Comparing Atlas Shrugged to the Bible is a bit ridiculous.

We should all strive to be as Christ like as we can, this does not mean we should all strive to force others to be as Christ like as they can.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We are in a Catholic forum and I am expressing the teachings of the Church. You can not vote for a pro- abortion canidate under the guise you didnt vote for him because he supported abortin and you can’t vote for him because you believe he is just marvelous on social issues, economic issues, military issues or any combination of them

That’s not exactly what Cardinal Ratzinger said. And why doesn’t the Pope speak out since Obama was elected? What importance does anything else play in preventing him from speaking clearly as you put it, if it was as you put it? Do you believe the Pope is idly standing by and letting people endanger their salvation without speaking out against the wrong they’ve done?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Marxism

It started long before Marx…

Act 4:32 And the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul. Neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed was his own: but all things were common unto them.
Act 4:33 And with great power did the Apostles give testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord: and great grace was in them all.
Act 4:34 For neither was there any one needy among them. For as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the price of the things they sold,
Act 4:35 And laid it down before the feet of the apostles. And distribution was made to every one, according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joseph, who, by the apostles, was surnamed Barnabas (which is, by interpretation, The son of consolation), a Levite, a Cyprian born,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it and brought the price and laid it at the feet of the Apostles.

 

[estesbob]

That’s not exactly what Cardinal Ratzinger said. And why doesn’t the Pope speak out since Obama was elected? What importance does anything else play in preventing him from speaking clearly as you put it, if it was as you put it? Do you believe the Pope is idly standing by and letting people endanger their salvation without speaking out against the wrong they’ve done?

Actually that is exactly what the Pope , the Vatican snd a whole Plethora of Bishops said sine the Pope NEVER comments onelections the idea that it was zoKnfor a Cayholic to vote for Obama because the Pope didn’t condemn his election is ludicrous

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

It started long before Marx…

Please don’t confuse Christian voluntary communalism with secular communism. If there were a Catholic commune that I could join with my family, sell everything that I have, and relocate my family there, I would. Do you know of one? Wealth redistribution is marxism and it is done to make some people more powerful at the expense of everyone else, and it isn’t done in the name of the Almighty.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Abortion is wrong. I, and a great number of other people, also believe it is wrong to watch the hungry go without food, homeless to go without shelter, sick go without healthcare, etc.etc. etc.

You’ve got a few years on me, well quite a few. Have you seen this get any better since the government’s gotten involved? I’ve spoken with men your age who have seen prosperous communities go down the drain and become almost entirely dependent upon government assistance. Communities that were flourishing with small business owners, where those business’s now are dope houses.

You keep saying that the ‘social programs’ are forcing you, through taxation. Aren’t we forcing those, who also have free will, to stop sinning by abortions? You said:

Nope. I’m sorry if you can differentiate between the two. Murder is illegal in the state of Oklahoma, but abortion, thanks to people who feel we should use the federal government to control the states is not.

I’m sure there are people who would say we are using politicians to distribute our morality. The difference seems to be, forcing social programs will take away from ‘me’.

They can say whatever they want. Does not mean murder should be legal. This is a horrible argument for your collective views.

You speak of sharing through our democratic government as if it’s wrong. Believe me when I say I live modestly and on a budget. I should give money, through politicians, to the rich so that money can ‘trickle’ down to everyone else? I should say it’s okay for the sick to go without healthcare, the hungry to go without food, or the homeless to go without shelter? Everyone should take care of themselves! I’m sorry, I cannot see where that is taught as a part of Christian living. Yes abortion is wrong. It’s also wrong to live in a great country and watch people suffer; because of hunger, homelessness, lack of healthcare, etc. etc.

I agree with you for the most part. The difference is, you think Oklahomans should live in the same sinking ship as Californian’s and New Yorkers. We have 50 states for a reason, I have no problem with telling people in other states they need to work on ways to feed, cloth and cure the poor. Hopefully one of the 50 will find the best way to do it and we can all follow along by their example.

Forcing us all to do it your way stifles innovation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You’ve got a few years on me, well quite a few. Have you seen this get any better since the government’s gotten involved? I’ve spoken with men your age who have seen prosperous communities go down the drain and become almost entirely dependent upon government assistance. Communities that were flourishing with small business owners, where those business’s now are dope houses.

I’ve seen the decline, through both political parties in control. It’s not one over the other. We have two parties and they always blame the other side for blocking their efforts and nothing positive gets done.

Nope. I’m sorry if you can differentiate between the two. Murder is illegal in the state of Oklahoma, but abortion, thanks to people who feel we should use the federal government to control the states is not.

They can say whatever they want. Does not mean murder should be legal. This is a horrible argument for your collective views.

Murder should be illegal, just as it should be illegal that a country as great as ours stands by and watches people go without healthcare, food, homes, clothing, jobs, etc.

Again, it doesn’t matter which party is in power, this continues. Tax breaks are given to the rich, who give minimum wage jobs without benefits, or move jobs to another country for greater profits. In return they promise to ‘trickle down’ the money. By the time it gets to our level, how much are they really talking about?

I agree with you for the most part. The difference is, you think Oklahomans should live in the same sinking ship as Californian’s and New Yorkers. We have 50 states for a reason, I have no problem with telling people in other states they need to work on ways to feed, cloth and cure the poor. Hopefully one of the 50 will find the best way to do it and we can all follow along by their example.

Forcing us all to do it your way stifles innovation.

Show me where Christ qualified who was to receive help? Loving one another, as He loves us, is giving without question. Qualification is a secular business.

I live in Florida, where many jobs are being lost. I have a partner (we work on an ambulance) who also works for the state, in a federally funded position established as a part of 911. His position is in jeopardy, not because of a lack of federal funds, but because it will give our new governor bragging rites about how much money he saved, without having to affect the state budget. He was elected by the state, but instead of really cutting state expenditures, he is using a federal amount to brag about how much he saved. So much for trusting state politicians, in my opinion.

You may have missed it, but I’ve said several times, we have to quit looking at partisans and start holding individuals accountable.

Innovation won’t be ‘stifled’. People are always going to work to improve their condition, no matter how much taxes they have to pay to do it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Please don’t confuse Christian voluntary communalism with secular communism. If there were a Catholic commune that I could join with my family, sell everything that I have, and relocate my family there, I would. Do you know of one? Wealth redistribution is marxism and it is done to make some people more powerful at the expense of everyone else, and it isn’t done in the name of the Almighty.

hmmm…seems to me, the solution would be to model our community, locally and nationally, after Christian voluntary communes as depicted in scriptures. How else can we evangelize? By the example of how we live.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

hmmm…seems to me, the solution would be to model our community, locally and nationally, after Christian voluntary communes as depicted in scriptures. How else can we evangelize? By the example of how we live.

Sounds good. You start. WHen you have a plan, let me know and I’ll join you.