Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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Everyone on this thread has expressed a value to life, the difference is that some value life for all, from birth to natural death. That includes a dignity of life for everyone, and some of us believe it to be even at the expense of others, including ourselves.
Valuing life from conception to natural death is what we as Catholics are called to do. When you say that "some value life for all, from birth to natural death" do you mean to imply that those of us who focus on abortion don’t care about what happens to those who are already born? Could perhaps explain better what you mean there?

Ishii
 
Continued from the previous thread on the topic.

I have refreshed the candidates in the poll to reflect current candidates.

I would ask that only registered US voters vote in the poll. Comments in the thread of non-US voters are welcome.

Some related news articles and op-eds on the topic:

Cultural and economic conservatives team up hoping for 2012 success

Mitt Romney declares bid for 2012 presidential election

Shades of the Civil War: Why 2012’s election looks like 1860
Pretty darn early for this stuff. Out of this field of people…on this day in the spring of 2011, with a weird field of votes, and an unfortunately withdrawn Huckabee and determined NOT to run Christie, I will say Tim Pawlenty. All I’m completely sure of at this stage of the game is not voting for President Obama. I didn’t vote for him last time because of worries about his attitudes on human life, and now I’ve seen his actual accomplishments. It’s truly stomache souring. I’m not a hugely economic conservative. My concerns are more on the morality and ethics side of things. (social conservative?), but those I know who concern themselves with the economic side of things are pretty displeased with him as well, including people I know who actually voted for him in 2008. Why he’s running away with your poll is hard to say. My guess is the earliness of the polling, and lack of name recognition yet over on the Republican candidates. In 2008, I was unable to bring myself to vote for McCain/Palin…or Obama/Biden. I voted independent. If I knew then what I know now, I may have held my nose and voted for McCain, though I am truly neither a Democrat nor a Republican. Nor am I a libertarian apparently when I look at their full agenda. The closest I can find is the Constitution Party, out of existing groups. What I really like is what I’ve read of Chesterton and Belloc (Distributism), but there is no such party, nor is there any groundswell of effort towards anything like it.

Tim Pawlenty is the strongest pro-lifer in this list, and has a good record of pro-life action. Rick Santorum is close.

Blessings,

Steven
 
Pretty darn early for this stuff. Out of this field of people…on this day in the spring of 2011, with a weird field of votes, and an unfortunately withdrawn Huckabee and determined NOT to run Christie, I will say Tim Pawlenty. All I’m completely sure of at this stage of the game is not voting for President Obama. I didn’t vote for him last time because of worries about his attitudes on human life, and now I’ve seen his actual accomplishments. It’s truly stomache souring. I’m not a hugely economic conservative. My concerns are more on the morality and ethics side of things. (social conservative?), but those I know who concern themselves with the economic side of things are pretty displeased with him as well, including people I know who actually voted for him in 2008. Why he’s running away with your poll is hard to say. My guess is the earliness of the polling, and lack of name recognition yet over on the Republican candidates. In 2008, I was unable to bring myself to vote for McCain/Palin…or Obama/Biden. I voted independent. If I knew then what I know now, I may have held my nose and voted for McCain, though I am truly neither a Democrat nor a Republican. Nor am I a libertarian apparently when I look at their full agenda. The closest I can find is the Constitution Party, out of existing groups. What I really like is what I’ve read of Chesterton and Belloc (Distributism), but there is no such party, nor is there any groundswell of effort towards anything like it.

Tim Pawlenty is the strongest pro-lifer in this list, and has a good record of pro-life action. Rick Santorum is close.

Blessings,

Steven
Steven, I hardly call 27% “running away with the poll”. That means out of 100 votes, 73 would vote for anyone else BUT him.
 
Valuing life from conception to natural death is what we as Catholics are called to do. When you say that "some value life for all, from birth to natural death" do you mean to imply that those of us who focus on abortion don’t care about what happens to those who are already born? Could perhaps explain better what you mean there?

Ishii
It’s hard to say what everyone cares about in this thread Ishii. Some have only spoken of one issue and made unfounded accusations against those to speak of other issues.
 
It’s hard to say what everyone cares about in this thread Ishii. Some have only spoken of one issue and made unfounded accusations against those to speak of other issues.
When you say, “some value life for all from birth to natural death” you seem to be implying that some don’t value life after birth, no? And you conspicuously leave out from conception to natural death (which is the correct Catholic moral teaching). I am merely asking you to clarify: do you really think that those of us who focus on abortion really don’t care about people after birth? I would like you to explain this.

Ishii
 
Valuing life from conception to natural death is what we as Catholics are called to do. When you say that "some value life for all, from birth to natural death" do you mean to imply that those of us who focus on abortion don’t care about what happens to those who are already born? Could perhaps explain better what you mean there?

Ishii
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
 
Pretty darn early for this stuff. Out of this field of people…on this day in the spring of 2011, with a weird field of votes, and an unfortunately withdrawn Huckabee and determined NOT to run Christie, I will say Tim Pawlenty. All I’m completely sure of at this stage of the game is not voting for President Obama. I didn’t vote for him last time because of worries about his attitudes on human life, and now I’ve seen his actual accomplishments. It’s truly stomache souring. I’m not a hugely economic conservative. My concerns are more on the morality and ethics side of things. (social conservative?), but those I know who concern themselves with the economic side of things are pretty displeased with him as well, including people I know who actually voted for him in 2008. Why he’s running away with your poll is hard to say. My guess is the earliness of the polling, and lack of name recognition yet over on the Republican candidates. In 2008, I was unable to bring myself to vote for McCain/Palin…or Obama/Biden. I voted independent. If I knew then what I know now, I may have held my nose and voted for McCain, though I am truly neither a Democrat nor a Republican. Nor am I a libertarian apparently when I look at their full agenda. The closest I can find is the Constitution Party, out of existing groups. What I really like is what I’ve read of Chesterton and Belloc (Distributism), but there is no such party, nor is there any groundswell of effort towards anything like it.

Tim Pawlenty is the strongest pro-lifer in this list, and has a good record of pro-life action. Rick Santorum is close.

Blessings,

Steven
Steven, I admire you desire to vote for the best candidate whose positions are closest to Catholic teachinig. I also admire you candor in admitting that you may have made a mistake in not voting for McCain. I suppose that you could find a party or candidate who is closest to the ideal of what you’re looking for. The question is how viable a candidate are they? If they have little or no chance to win, and there is another candidate who, while not perfect, does have a chance to win I think it makes sense to vote for the latter. I like Pawlenty too, although I am a bit disappointed in his performance in the “debates” so far. If he is to challenge Romney he has to make his move. I have read up on distributism but I have a lot of questions - namely who would enforce it. But that discussion needs a different thread.

Ishii
 
Sounds good. You start. WHen you have a plan, let me know and I’ll join you.
Live your life as a devout obedient Catholic who is submissive to the teachings of the Church,Do so 24-7 in all things especially in public.Always say grace before meals in restaurants.
When someone says,'Jesus Christ!" as an expletive no matter where you are genuflect,bless yourself and sat “Blessed be His name”.Don’t bother remonstrating with the person for taking our Lord’s name in vain,in fact don’t look at him or her.That is evangelizing.
When you do something good and you are thanked for it say"Thank God:,He allows me to be His hands and Face in this world.🙂
 
We have not become a country of me, me, me. We started out as a country of me, me, me and have become a country of yours, yours, yours.

When it’s just me, me, me and I’m feeling blessed by what I have. I tend to give a lot more. But unfortunately, when things are tough, I have to pull back wherever I can.

I think we are all better off, when we tend to our own flock and assist others when we can. Most of my immediate family lives within walking distance of each other, we have a garden that we have all worked on and we go and take from it as we need.

When there is more food on the vine than we can use, we take it to other relatives if we can get to it before it goes bad.

Comparing Atlas Shrugged to the Bible is a bit ridiculous.

We should all strive to be as Christ like as we can, this does not mean we should all strive to force others to be as Christ like as they can.
We did not start out as a country of me, me, me. It’s not supportable by the factual history of our country. Read the Preamble to The Constitution. It says, “We the people”. You should read what Jefferson wrote about the yeoman farmer. His version of “Self-Interested activism” was all about people that are wedded to the land working together for the common good which included profit. He recognized that by working together, we gain more than we could ever hope to gain thru the anarchy of Lassez-Faire economics. Modern conservatism and this worship of Lassez-Faire economics has nothing to do with the kind of economy and society that the Founding Fathers made for themselves and desired to preserve for their posterity. The ill informed are easily fooled. I am not ill informed.
 
We did not start out as a country of me, me, me. It’s not supportable by the factual history of our country. Read the Preamble to The Constitution. It says, “We the people”. You should read what Jefferson wrote about the yeoman farmer. His version of “Self-Interested activism” was all about people that are wedded to the land working together for the common good which included profit. He recognized that by working together, we gain more than we could ever hope to gain thru the anarchy of Lassez-Faire economics. Modern conservatism and this worship of Lassez-Faire economics has nothing to do with the kind of economy and society that the Founding Fathers made for themselves and desired to preserve for their posterity. The ill informed are easily fooled. I am not ill informed.
I’m no economist, I just dont believe in my voting decisions intruding into people’s lives who live in different states. We still work together as a community, regardless of how selfish you may think modern day America is, we do more for this world than any other country.

This idea that person a from Florida has a right to go into person b’s house in Oklahoma because a thinks b makes a bit too much money is just disgusting. If that’s the way you want it, send me your address, I need some help paying bills this month.
 
Live your life as a devout obedient Catholic who is submissive to the teachings of the Church,Do so 24-7 in all things especially in public.Always say grace before meals in restaurants.
When someone says,'Jesus Christ!" as an expletive no matter where you are genuflect,bless yourself and sat “Blessed be His name”.Don’t bother remonstrating with the person for taking our Lord’s name in vain,in fact don’t look at him or her.That is evangelizing.
When you do something good and you are thanked for it say"Thank God:,He allows me to be His hands and Face in this world.🙂
I already do that stuff. I meant, when you have a plan to start a Catholic commune, where the entrance requirement is a divestiture of all worldly possessions and everyone that lives therein lives for the common good of all who live there, let me know.
 
We did not start out as a country of me, me, me. It’s not supportable by the factual history of our country. Read the Preamble to The Constitution. It says, “We the people”. You should read what Jefferson wrote about the yeoman farmer. His version of “Self-Interested activism” was all about people that are wedded to the land working together for the common good which included profit. He recognized that by working together, we gain more than we could ever hope to gain thru the anarchy of Lassez-Faire economics. Modern conservatism and this worship of Lassez-Faire economics has nothing to do with the kind of economy and society that the Founding Fathers made for themselves and desired to preserve for their posterity. The ill informed are easily fooled. I am not ill informed.
The unfettered marcket is not anarchic. There are laws that guide the marketplace, just as there are natural laws that guide human behavior. You should read about the Late Scholastics from the University of Salamanca. Catholics (students of St. Thomas Aquinas no less) are the ones who discovered that the market has forces of law that control its behavior and that the more the state interferes with these forces, the more unbalanced it becomes. It wasn’t an aethist that established the principles of the free market, Catholics did, using a derivation of the principles of natural law established by St. Thomas Aquinas.

mises.org/daily/3787
 
I would like to understand something better here. A lot of people are opposed to Government taxes being collected from us the taxpayers for charitable endeavours. Its not that these people don’t help in local communities but they don’t want their money stolen from them through taxation.

As a person who understands business, I know that when you purchase supplies from a company, the price per unit goes down when you order in higher quantities. Let’s say that the government wants to start up soup kitchens. It has been calculated that to feed a person would cost $1.50 at the local level. However, the government gets involved in nationally with this and by purchase power can get the same supplies for $0.89. Which means that more people can be fed or less money is being spent (taken) from us than if it was done locally.

Granted Governments are not the most efficient business people, I grant you, but rather than cut off taxes for that worthwhile endeavour, we should work within the system to make it more efficient?

I would also like to ask people here if they were opposed to the federal government helping (taxes) the survivors of Hurricane Katrina? I remember some people criticizing the Government for that.
 
I would like to understand something better here. A lot of people are opposed to Government taxes being collected from us the taxpayers for charitable endeavours. Its not that these people don’t help in local communities but they don’t want their money stolen from them through taxation.

As a person who understands business, I know that when you purchase supplies from a company, the price per unit goes down when you order in higher quantities. Let’s say that the government wants to start up soup kitchens. It has been calculated that to feed a person would cost $1.50 at the local level. However, the government gets involved in nationally with this and by purchase power can get the same supplies for $0.89. Which means that more people can be fed or less money is being spent (taken) from us than if it was done locally.

Granted Governments are not the most efficient business people, I grant you, but rather than cut off taxes for that worthwhile endeavour, we should work within the system to make it more efficient?

I would also like to ask people here if they were opposed to the federal government helping (taxes) the survivors of Hurricane Katrina? I remember some people criticizing the Government for that.
Honestly, and I know I am going to sound callous here, but if you choose to live in a flood plane, below sea level, at the delta of the biggest river in North America and in the epicenter of a hurricane zone, you sorta deserve what you get.

jb-williams.com/notyourstogive.htm

"It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means.

What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he.

If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give at all; and as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity and to any amount you may think proper.You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. 'No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity."

“Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this country as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have Thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week’s pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life.”

“The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from necessity of giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution.”
“So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you.”
 
When you say, “some value life for all from birth to natural death” you seem to be implying that some don’t value life after birth, no? And you conspicuously leave out from conception to natural death (which is the correct Catholic moral teaching). I am merely asking you to clarify: do you really think that those of us who focus on abortion really don’t care about people after birth? I would like you to explain this.

Ishii
I was in the middle of studying for a midterm yesterday and inadvertently said ‘birth to natural death’. I meant ‘conception to natural death’ as I believe life begins at conception.

As for what some believe, I cannot say. Only they can say, but so far some have only spoken on a single issue and instead of speaking on other issues have taken opportunities to imply someone support abortion because they see other issues as proportionate. This seems to be a lack of concern in reference to other issues, or that’s what it has appearances of.
 
I was in the middle of studying for a midterm yesterday and inadvertently said ‘birth to natural death’. I meant ‘conception to natural death’ as I believe life begins at conception.

As for what some believe, I cannot say. Only they can say, but so far some have only spoken on a single issue and instead of speaking on other issues have taken opportunities to imply someone support abortion because they see other issues as proportionate. This seems to be a lack of concern in reference to other issues, or that’s what it has appearances of.
There is no lack of concern on other issues- just acknowledgement that political differences on how to adress these issues never rise to the level of abortion
 
There is no lack of concern on other issues- just acknowledgement that political differences on how to adress these issues never rise to the level of abortion
I understand and accept that you are using your faith formed conscience to make your decision. I also understand that everyone on this thread is doing the same. Cardinal Ratzinger said:
“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”
This does not forbid someone from voting their own consciences. Sure many in the Church have interpreted this as forbidden, while others believe it is leaving it up to them to use their faith formed consciences to decide which is right and which is wrong, what is believable from candidates and what is not. Who is silent on an expressed explanation is our Holy Father. Why? If it were as ‘cased closed’ as some say, and it is an issue that half the Church is condemned for by some of the other half, why isn’t he speaking up as our shepherd to protect the salvation of that endangered half? I know some say, he has many bishops who spoke up! The bishops were split last election. Which were correct and which were wrong? Some of the Church says only those bishops they agree with were right and the rest were wrong, and saying some unsavory things about those that disagreed or gave different explanations? Again why is the clarification coming from the Holy Father? It’s his job to lead the Church, to bind and loose. His word is final and the largest majority of Catholics would accept it.

We shouldn’t be taking on condemning members of our Church. That’s the same as judging. We don’t have the authority to bind and loose and on this subject there is no definitive binding and loosing from the one who can end the discussion one way or the other.
 
Fox News … talk show … Bill O’Reilly & D*ck Morris … Michele Bachmann got rave reviews.

Romney has pulled ahead perhaps based on Al Gore’s endorsement for Romney’s global warming stand.

Survey indicates Romney has the best hair.

Bachmann’s is #2.
 
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