Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[Catholic_Kenpo]

I voted yes. Although, at this point, I would take one parish in the entire diocese that offers TLM mass. According to the diocesan website, it’s not offered at any parish in the diocese. I can’t say that I like it better than NO, but at this point I haven’t been given the option of finding out what it’s like. And being that I generally enjoy a more traditional service, I’d like to have that opportunity available to me.

 

[Cat]

I hope this doesn’t sound uncharitable. I really don’t want another infraction. I’m only posting this because maybe it will help us to be good.

The more I read, the more I’m coming to believe that some Catholics will never be happy.

After over 40 years as an enthusiastic, active evangelical Protestant, I became Catholic in 2004. I came to realize that all those years, I had lived in a crummy, leaky tent, while Catholics live in a beautiful castle.

But it seems there are some Catholics who want to live in a bigger, better castle.

I can appreciate that many of you long for a TLM in a convenient location. I sincerely hope that the Holy Father’s motu proprio will bring about TLMs in every in every city and town especially in the U.S. I don’t have the fervent regard for this EF that many of you have. I don’t think TLM will bring about the revival that many of you believe will happen. But I do believe that it is right and appropriate for Catholics to ask for this Mass.

But many of you DO have a TLM near you, yet you still seem to find so much to complain about in the Church. I keep reading your posts and wondering why you continue to harangue against the NO Mass when you don’t even attend one any more. Why can’t you just be happy where you are? Why can’t you allow all the other Catholics to celebrate Mass according to their choice, which is still heartily approved by the Holy Mother Church and Pope Benedict XVI, too.

Why are you worried about the contemporary music, the OCP, the liberal bishops, the talking before Mass, the dress code, the gum chewing, etc. etc.? Why do you see so much that is wrong with the Catholic Church?

When I see my Church, I see a castle. Yes, there are some messy rooms in the castle that definitely need attention, but the beautiful stuff is still visible even under layers of dust and clutter.

And most important of all, Jesus is in the Catholic Church.

 

[EasterJoy]

It is beyond me how some laypeople who call themselves “traditional” presume to lecture the Popes. I do not mean this on the grounds of “shut up, they have formal authority and you don’t.” I mean that if you’ve ever read any of their writings, it does not take long to see that the they are among the most brilliant, learned, and doctrinally-obedient men the Church has ever been graced with.

I have said this in about these words on another thread: If any of you are arguing that you have a sure knowledge that Pope John Paul II and our current Holy Father’s stated interpretations of prior Church councils on any point–which we may suppose they must have both scanned over a few times in their original Latin–is either defective or deceptive, then there is nothing I can do. If you want to believe that your understanding of the nature of the pronouncements of their predecessors is superior to theirs in both accuracy and authority, there is little chance you’ll believe me. If you won’t believe they have studied enough to be knowledgeable or trustworthy enough to teach you matters of faith, I do not know what would satisfy you.

But if you do lecture the Popes of our times, ask yourself this: do you think you could give an oral defense of the definition and history of Modernism, of the content produced by the various councils, of the history of the order of the Mass, of the writings of the early Church Fathers, as well as how these relate to each other, with these last five Popes as your dissertation committee? Are you so certain of the depth and breadth of your understanding that you would savor the prospect of facing them as your examiners? How certain are you that you would not emerge from that meeting having learned just how vast is the amount that you do not yet know or have not yet considered?

If, however, you are saying that you wish these leaders would have done less in their duty to be servants and more in their duty to admonish, I can say that they themselves have expressed concerns along the same lines. They walk a difficult line. On that point, they would welcome the ardent prayers you have so many times said that you offer. I am sure they are deeply grateful…keep up the good work.

 

[anamchara]

I voted no, this is ridiculous.

 

[piouswoman]

I was only answering the questions you asked. I am sorry to hear you live in such a vacuum of faith. I consider myself fortunate to live in a place where the Catholic Church is alive and growing, as it is in much of the world. If your particular circle is so damaged of faith, you might consider that it could be something else rather than blaming the loss of faith on modernist popes. After all, many other so not have such a disparing circumstance with the same leadership in the Vatican.

Evidently you have not read this:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Muslims_outnumber_Catholics_Vatican_research/articleshow/2910700.cms

Now, who is living in a vacuum?

 

[pnewton]

Evidently you have not read this:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Muslims_outnumber_Catholics_Vatican_research/articleshow/2910700.cms

Now, who is living in a vacuum?

No, I don’t read the Times of India. I didn’t know that qualified as living in a vacuum

FYI - You need to proof your articles before you claim they support you. This is about the growth of Muslims outstripping Catholics, not Catholics losing faith. The article state, in fact"

He added that the Catholic population was still growing as the world’s population increases. The Vatican said last month that from 2005 to 2006 the Catholic population grew 1.4 per cent to 1.13 billion

 

[piouswoman]

Give me a couple of examples of dogmas/doctrines where each those whom you call Modernist Popes have gone against the doctrines and morals of the Church or have taught a dogma ex cathedra that is not in line with the Church I know. You have very forcefully expounded negatively on " some things", but have not clarified what you are talking about. I am willing to listen, but I want to know what I am listening to. Peace

Dear elt,
Would not asking me once of sufficed? First example, NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. You don’t need me to point out that the church today is pushing ecumenism and equality of religions. That is a slap in the face of Our Lord, who died on the Holy Cross for our salvation. He came to bring the truth and to teach and whoever thinks they can change or teach contrary to what Our Lord taught is a heretic.

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:

“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:

“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence, which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned

And for further edification:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P10PRASC.HTM

 

[laudamus_te]

No, I don’t read the Times of India. I didn’t know that qualified as living in a vacuum

Maybe you live in the Netherlands:
radionetherlands.nl/news/international/5709186/Vatican-Muslims-outnumber-Catholics

Or in the UK:
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/31/wvatican131.xml

Or in the US:
usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-03-30-muslims-catholics_N.htm

Point is, it’s a Vatican news release, picked up and reported all over the world. Good attempt at humor, though.

FYI - You need to proof your articles before you claim they support you. This is about the growth of Muslims outstripping Catholics, not Catholics losing faith. The article state, in fact"Quote:
He added that the Catholic population was still growing as the world’s population increases. The Vatican said last month that from 2005 to 2006 the Catholic population grew 1.4 per cent to 1.13 billion"

As I read it, that article does support piouswoman. You said the Catholic Church in your area “was growing.” Maybe it is in your little pocket of the world, I don’t know. But in reality, the Muslim’s are more numerous and growing faster. They’re having the babies, Catholics are not. Figure it out.

 

[piouswoman]

No, I don’t read the Times of India. I didn’t know that qualified as living in a vacuum

FYI - You need to proof your articles before you claim they support you. This is about the growth of Muslims outstripping Catholics, not Catholics losing faith. The article state, in fact"

Like a true modernist, you can argue yourself out of the TRUTH and in the FACE OF FACTS.

This news story is directly from the Vatican, and for you to lightly shrug it off is no surprise to me.

uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL3068682420080330

“For the first time in history we are no longer at the top: the Muslims have overtaken us,” Formenti told Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano in an interview, saying the data referred to 2006.

Now you can continue to bury your head in the sand, but the truth of the matter is, this is an alarming bit of news.

 

[piouswoman]

FYI - You need to proof your articles before you claim they support you. This is about the growth of Muslims outstripping Catholics, not Catholics losing faith. The article state, in fact"

Now maybe I can LOL and paste smiley buttons rolling in laughter.

In the USA:

Active Priests:
1965 - 58,000
2002 - 45,000

Ordinations:
1965 - 1,575
2002 - 450

Priestless Parishes:
1965 - 549 (about 1%)
2002 - 2,928 (about 15%)

Seminarians:
1965 - 49,000
2002 - 4,700

Sisters:
1965 - 180,000
2002 - 75,000

Brothers:
1965 - 12,000
2002 - 5,700

Jesuits:
1965 - 5,277
2002 - 3,172

Franciscans:
1965 - 2,534
2002 - 1,492

Christian Brothers:
1965 - 2,434
2002 - 959

Redemptorists:
1965 - 1,148
2002 - 349

Catholic High Schools:
1965 - 1,566
2002 - 786

Catholic High School Students:
1965 - 700,000
2002 - 386,000

Parochial Grade Schools:
1965 - 10,504
2002 - 6,623

Parochial Grade School Students:
1965 - 4.5 million
2002 - 1.9 million

Infant Baptisms:
1965 - 1.3 million
2002 - 1 million

Adult Baptisms (conversions):
1965 - 126,000
2002 - 80,000

Catholic Marriages:
1965 - 352,000
2002 - 256,000

Annulments:
1965 - 338
2002 - 50,000

Regular Mass Attendance - study #1:
1958 - 74% of Catholics (Gallup Pole)
1994 - 26.6% (Notre Dame study)

Regular Mass Attendance - Fordham University study:
1965 - 65% of Catholics
2000 - 25%

Misc. (source, National Catholic Reporter)
77% believe Catholics don’t have to attend Mass on Sunday
65% believe Catholics can divorce and remarry
53% believe Catholics can have an abortion
10% accept the Church’s teaching on birth control (source, Notre Dame poll)
70% believe the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Our Lord (New York Times poll)

(Source: Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, by Michael Davies, TAN Books, copyright 2003)

Nope, no problem in the church here people, move right along, nothing to see here…

 

[elt1956]

It is beyond me how some laypeople who call themselves “traditional” presume to lecture the Popes. I do not mean this on the grounds of “shut up, they have formal authority and you don’t.” I mean that if you’ve ever read any of their writings, it does not take long to see that the they are among the most brilliant, learned, and doctrinally-obedient men the Church has ever been graced with.

I have said this in about these words on another thread: If any of you are arguing that you have a sure knowledge that Pope John Paul II and our current Holy Father’s stated interpretations of prior Church councils on any point–which we may suppose they must have both scanned over a few times in their original Latin–is either defective or deceptive, then there is nothing I can do. If you want to believe that your understanding of the nature of the pronouncements of their predecessors is superior to theirs in both accuracy and authority, there is little chance you’ll believe me. If you won’t believe they have studied enough to be knowledgeable or trustworthy enough to teach you matters of faith, I do not know what would satisfy you.

But if you do lecture the Popes of our times, ask yourself this: do you think you could give an oral defense of the definition and history of Modernism, of the content produced by the various councils, of the history of the order of the Mass, of the writings of the early Church Fathers, as well as how these relate to each other, with these last five Popes as your dissertation committee? Are you so certain of the depth and breadth of your understanding that you would savor the prospect of facing them as your examiners? How certain are you that you would not emerge from that meeting having learned just how vast is the amount that you do not yet know or have not yet considered?

If, however, you are saying that you wish these leaders would have done less in their duty to be servants and more in their duty to admonish, I can say that they themselves have expressed concerns along the same lines. They walk a difficult line. On that point, they would welcome the ardent prayers you have so many times said that you offer. I am sure they are deeply grateful…keep up the good work.

Very well done. Couldn’t have said it better. Peace

 

[I_Believe]

Why are you worried about the contemporary music, the OCP, the liberal bishops, the talking before Mass, the dress code, the gum chewing, etc. etc.? Why do you see so much that is wrong with the Catholic Church?

Well Cat, you answered your own question…

And most important of all, Jesus is in the Catholic Church.

Stepping into a Catholic church isn’t the same as stepping into a protestant church. Is Jesus present in a baptist church ? Of course he is, he is everywhere at all times. But in a catholic church, we are placing ourselves before the Real Presence.

It’s not a community prayer service we gather for, led by someone who doesn’t enjoy Apostolic Succession, and interprets the version of scripture of one who rejected HMC and formed his own. (KJV).

I really can’t blame those who don’t see a problem with wearing casual dress to Mass, and chit chatting about mundane things before Mass. I blame their pastors.

Look at it this way. If you are going out to dine at a fine restaurant, do you dress well, or wear jeans and a tee shirt ?

When we have members of the Curia saying salvation is offered to those outside HMC, then yes, those who do understand Catholicism do have every right to speak out. Heresy is heresy, and it’s not compatible with Catholicism.

If anyone thinks those who truly have the faith will cease to attack heresy and error, they are kidding themselves.

 

[elt1956]

Dear elt,
Would not asking me once of sufficed? First example, NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. You don’t need me to point out that the church today is pushing ecumenism and equality of religions. That is a slap in the face of Our Lord, who died on the Holy Cross for our salvation. He came to bring the truth and to teach and whoever thinks they can change or teach contrary to what Our Lord taught is a heretic.

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:

“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:

“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence, which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned

And for further edification:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P10PRASC.HTM

How quickly you judge. The repeats were computer/finger errors. I have gone to the above website and am no further enlightened. As far as I can see these postings and website do not tell me what the errors were that Pius X was writing about, so I am still in the dark as to your diatribes.

 

[elt1956]

Dear elt,
Would not asking me once of sufficed? First example, NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. You don’t need me to point out that the church today is pushing ecumenism and equality of religions. That is a slap in the face of Our Lord, who died on the Holy Cross for our salvation. He came to bring the truth and to teach and whoever thinks they can change or teach contrary to what Our Lord taught is a heretic.

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:

“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:

“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence, which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned

And for further edification:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P10PRASC.HTM

How quickly you judge. The repeats were computer/finger errors. I have gone to the above website and am no further enlightened. As far as I can see these postings and website do not tell me what the errors were that Pius X was writing about, so I am still in the dark as to your diatribes.

P.S. No Salvation outside the Catholic Faith???How is it you always forget the Baptism of Desire by those who are not Catholic, but want with their whole hearts to be one with Christ? I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Who am I, or you, to judge the hearts and souls of others? That is up to God. If God wants them to squeak into hearven that is up to God. Or maybe they will come with trumpets blaring. “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”. We “Modernists” are not pushing the idea that all Religions are equal, but that each soul is equal in it’s desire to be with God. Your desire to have the Catholic isolationist ideas of fifty years or more to return will cause a lack of communication and a reaching out to others to weaken. There will be fewer souls finding the path to God because of the lack of Love and Understanding of you and others of your ilk.

 

[pnewton]

As I read it, that article does support piouswoman. You said the Catholic Church in your area “was growing.” Maybe it is in your little pocket of the world, I don’t know. But in reality, the Muslim’s are more numerous and growing faster. They’re having the babies, Catholics are not. Figure it out.

In the article it stated that Catholics have increased.

Statistics
Darn statistics
or lies?

I only responded to the one article which was posted in response to the statement she made that Catholics are losing faith.

Muslims are increasing ergo Catholics are losing faith? This is not a good syllogism. Just like there is no logical reason for me to be called a modernist or state I have my head in the sand. But then name-calling is always easier than being logical. It does nothing but perpetuate stereotypes of traditionalists.

 

[Cat]

What do all these dreary stats have to do with the topic of TLM in every parish?

Are there honestly people who believe that a TLM in every parish will result in widespread revival?

 

[EasterJoy]

I voted yes. Although, at this point, I would take one parish in the entire diocese that offers TLM mass. According to the diocesan website, it’s not offered at any parish in the diocese. I can’t say that I like it better than NO, but at this point I haven’t been given the option of finding out what it’s like. And being that I generally enjoy a more traditional service, I’d like to have that opportunity available to me.

I voted “no”, but stating the goal that every geographical area will attempt to offer the TLM somewhere, if at all possible? This seems worthwhile.

P.S. No Salvation outside the Catholic Faith???How is it you always forget the Baptism of Desire by those who are not Catholic, but want with their whole hearts to be one with Christ? I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Who am I, or you, to judge the hearts and souls of others? That is up to God. If God wants them to squeak into hearven that is up to God. Or maybe they will come with trumpets blaring. “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”. We “Modernists” are not pushing the idea that all Religions are equal, but that each soul is equal in it’s desire to be with God. Your desire to have the Catholic isolationist ideas of fifty years or more to return will cause a lack of communication and a reaching out to others to weaken. There will be fewer souls finding the path to God because of the lack of Love and Understanding of you and others of your ilk.

The baptism of desire puts you in the Church, whether you are aware of it or not. The point of “no salvation outside the Church” is that there is no “Christ over here, Church over there”. Christ established the Church as His Body to be His Presence on earth. Can unity with Christ and with His Church be less than obviously direct? Yes. The Holy Spirit blows where He will…the household of Cornelius being a prime example. Nevertheless, the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and in His Church is par excellence. Even while explaining our understanding of extenuating circumstances, we should not be afraid to say that there is no substitute for these.

 

[Silver_Thread]

What do all these dreary stats have to do with the topic of TLM in every parish?

Are there honestly people who believe that a TLM in every parish will result in widespread revival?

                         EXACTLY!!!!!!

At the present time, I believe that ignorance reigns suprem in the NO Church.!

 

[CradleCath]

If we’re going to insist on going back, I wish we’d go back to Greek. Maybe we’d understand the Scriptures, if we had to know the language they were written in. Oh, well. When they put the Mass into a vulgar language the first time, at least the traditionalists saved the Kyrie.

Pentecost says to me that the Holy Spirit does not prefer to work in a single language. On that day Babel was undone, and a better day the Church has not seen since. Let everyone hear the Good News in his or her own language, I say. But if the language that speaks to your heart is Latin, if the Mass that lifts your heart to heaven is the TLM, I hope nothing stands in your way.

I am a devotee of the Tridentine Mass, not because of the language used to pray it…but because of it’s Theology. I don’t want to make myself attend Mass anymore. Forty five years of that has been enough for me.

I want the priest to distribute the Eucharist, not a lay person.

I want to pray the** Catholic** Lord’s Prayer.

I want to kneel before a Communion rail with reverance & know that a paten will be held beneath my chin because to lose part of Christ’s Body would be horrid.

I want to see Altar BOYS serving the priest, with the intention of someday becoming just like him.

I want to pray the Mass in fellowship with the Virgin Mother & the Apostles and Martyrs: “with John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all the saints” (from the Roman Canon)…not with my neighbor who I can visit with over donuts & coffee AFTER Mass.

I want some SILENCE during the Mass so that I can listen to God.

I want to pray “Let us go to the altar of God” & be able to see an altar not a table.

I want to look toward the “Holy of Holies” & actually see a Tabernacle.

Lest you think I’m selfish with all these “I wants”, I’m not. I have TRIED for over 40 years to believe in the Novus Ordo & the message it gives. I’m 66 yrs. old & I embraced the Novus Ordo when it first began, I just can’t do it anymore. I’m so sorry for those of you who know nothing else. Your culture & your Catholic heritage have been stolen from you & you don’t even know it.

BTW. This is not simply a view held by a nostalgic old woman. The majority who attend Mass with me have children who are in the early elementary grades.

 

[piouswoman]

P.S. No Salvation outside the Catholic Faith???How is it you always forget the Baptism of Desire by those who are not Catholic, but want with their whole hearts to be one with Christ? I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Who am I, or you, to judge the hearts and souls of others? That is up to God. If God wants them to squeak into hearven that is up to God. Or maybe they will come with trumpets blaring. “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”. We “Modernists” are not pushing the idea that all Religions are equal, but that each soul is equal in it’s desire to be with God. Your desire to have the Catholic isolationist ideas of fifty years or more to return will cause a lack of communication and a reaching out to others to weaken. There will be fewer souls finding the path to God because of the lack of Love and Understanding of you and others of your ilk.

That’s easy… join the Catholic Church.