It may seem that way to you, but you are wrong. And I might add, that many on this forum SEEM to me to think that the church began with Vatican II.
Dearest Pious. Did you REALLY read my post, or were you ready with the answer before you read it? Did you see the word GOD in there?
P.S. Since when are the rites of the Mass “Doctrine”? There is a central part/core of the Mass and that is the Consecration, Sacrifice and Communion. Read the Early Church Fathers. This is where this started and they didn’t differentiate between TLM and NO because neither existed at that time.
I think you are seeing is that we do not believe the Church ended with Vatican II, or has been destroyed. We fail to see the logic in believing in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church up until 1960’s, then suddenly disregarding where our shepherds lead us over the last 40 years.
Dearest elt…The Mass encompasses the doctrines of our faith…that is why we profess the Credo at every Holy Mass…the Credo is not the same in the new mass as in the TLM. The Novus Ordo is devoid of the true beauty and prayers, reverence and sanctity of the TLM.
But I don’t disregard anything…I just refuse to follow erroneous teaching that is against Catholic Doctrine. It is the duty of a Catholic to reject error.
Tell me the doctrines it encompasses please, other than the Credo and the Sacrifice, Consecration and Communion. And although you may not believe this, I do love the Nicene Creed. I am sure you realize the Earliest Church Fathers didn’t celebrate Mass as we do today?. It was called a meal. Heresy!!!
Exactly!!
what?
HA HA HA, elt…your “other thans” were just about everything…I would like the **proof **that the earliest church fathers called the Holy Mass a meal. I have read much of the early beginnings of the church and your statement is inaccurate if not downright false.
If my “other thans” are the Credo, the Consecration, the Sacrifice, and Communion then why do you have such a difficult time with the NO? Aren’t all of these “other thans” contained within that same Sacrifice of the Mass? IF YOU HAVE READany of the books about the church fathers, or even if you have an iota of common sense, you will already know the Mass, as we call it, was, at first, a communal meal because this is what Christ and his disciples had at the last supper. Of course it was a different “meal” and an extraordinary one in which Christ gave us the Sacrament of the Eucharist. But You don’t really believe the Mass, or Meal , at the Last Supper was in the form it is today do you? No, of course you don’t. It was a communal meal, just as the emphasis on the NO after Vatican II is on the community present in the Church. The Mass as we have it today gradually evolved into the form it is today given to us by the great thinkers of the Church both BEFORE AND AFTER Vatican II. I for one, am willing to accept what those leaders, who received their instructions from the disciples of Christ, say. You may think your insight is better than theirs, but honey bun, I don’t think so.
I have never seen a clown or tamborine at any Mass. What do they have to do with the form of Mass?
The last supper was not a COMMUNAL MEAL. Do you know the meaning of the word communal? It means public, or belonging to the community. There was no community present at the Last Supper, only Christ and His apostles. After the Last Supper, Our Lord washed the feet of the Apostles. He did this to teach us humility. After the washing of the feet, Our Lord instituted the Blessed Eucharist, said the first Mass, and gave His Apostles their first Holy Communion. Some basic catechism for you, elt:
Hmmmmm. Communal/community. Were not the Apostles the only community available at that time? Re-read what I said. As usual you already had your answer planted from you head to your fingers to the keyboard to the forum.
No, they were not the only community available at that time…Christ gathered some seventy-two disciples, and from them chose twelve Apostles, to whom He gave special instruction and training. By them He established His Church, which was to carry on His work after His death, to continue teaching what He had openly and publicly taught. And this is straight from the Catholic catechism.