Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[elt1956]

I think there should be a TLM within 30min driving distance of anyone. There are about 10 parishes within 15 min drive of my home, and it would be unnecessary for all of them to have a TLM if no one liked it. There is a NO in Latin about 30 min away from my home and we go there almost every Sunday. It is great!

When we lived in Colorado, we drove an hour to go to a decent NO mass. We lived in the mountains outside of Denver. It must be a requirement, that if you are a priest in the mountains you must be some sort of weirdo, so we had to drive to Denver. The mass was worth the drive though, Holy Ghost church is BEAUTIFUL!
gtg
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

Hi Margarite. What is the difference between the tLM Mass and the NO Mass in Latin? I have been in unaware land tooooooooooo long. Peace.

 

[James0235]

Hi Margarite. What is the difference between the tLM Mass and the NO Mass in Latin? I have been in unaware land tooooooooooo long. Peace.

The prayers are often different.

And the readings are different. The NO (in Latin or English) follows a 3 yr cycle of Sunday readings and a 2 yr cycle of weekday readings.

The TLM follows a 1 yr cycle of Sunday readings. There is no cycle of weekday readings. The readings on weekdays are determined by the Feast that is being celebrated that day.

James

 

[elt1956]

The prayers are often different.

And the readings are different. The NO (in Latin or English) follows a 3 yr cycle of Sunday readings and a 2 yr cycle of weekday readings.

The TLM follows a 1 yr cycle of Sunday readings. There is no cycle of weekday readings. The readings on weekdays are determined by the Feast that is being celebrated that day.

James

Gracias. Peace.

 

[Unitas]

And there’s the rub. I have never, ever heard anyone in my church or any other Catholic church complain that we should go back to Latin…NEVER, EVER…and the parishes I’ve belonged to are fairly “traditional” by today’s standards.

Lol, why would you? Are you the parish’s complaint department?

Have you been to every parish to conclude that no one wants it?

CAF is the only place I’ve ever encountered people demanding, or rueing the lack of, Mass in Latin.

Sacrosanctum Concilium, Article 36, paragraph 1.

 

[elt1956]

Lol, why would you? Are you the parish’s complaint department?

Have you been to every parish to conclude that no one wants it?

Sacrosanctum Concilium, Article 36, paragraph 1.

It wasn’t until I started posting to CAF that I even thought there might be a chance I would hear a TLM again. They were a part of my childhood and I didn’t realize how much I missed them til they were discussed on the CAF forum. Peace.

 

[Brother_John]

It wasn’t until I started posting to CAF that I even thought there might be a chance I would hear a TLM again. They were a part of my childhood and I didn’t realize how much I missed them til they were discussed on the CAF forum. Peace.

Likewise, until coming to CAF, I thought Latin was long since gone in my rearview mirror. In the four parishes I am associated with, I have yet to hear of anyone asking for a return of Latin.

In fact, since coming to CAF, I have ASKED numerous people, young and old alike, their thoughts…and have yet to find anyone that sees Latin as anything more than a novelty.

Since coming to CAF, I have come to view Latin and Communion on the tongue as symbolic of a “Sister Bertha Better-n-You” crowd that I didn’t even know existed within the church. My time at CAF has turned Latin from an interesting novelty, to something I would definetely avoid.

My pastor has even hinted that I perhaps spend too much time at CAF, to the detriment of my faith.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=James0235;3430464]The prayers are often different.

And the readings are different. The NO (in Latin or English) follows a 3 yr cycle of Sunday readings and a 2 yr cycle of weekday readings.

The TLM follows a 1 yr cycle of Sunday readings. There is no cycle of weekday readings. The readings on weekdays are determined by the Feast that is being celebrated that day.

many of the prayers that were said in the Tridentine Mass for centuries just seem to be gone. Correct me if I’m wrong but, the first thing I noticed when I started attending the Tridentine Mass again, were the prayers. I’d forgotten about so many of them & I can’t tell you how great it is to hear the prayers that actually mention our Saints: Perpetua, Anastasia. Sixtus & Clement. In the old rite the Church sets forth in a fully explicit way her doctrine of the Communion of Saints by which we are united in a bond of fellowship with all the faithful living and dead. The doctrine of the intercession of Our Lady and the Saints whose merits can win grace for our souls is given frequent prominence in the Ordinary and the Propers of the traditional Latin Mass. I believe that the Canon is now called the Eucharistic Prayer #1, but It’s been 10 yrs., at least, since I’ve heard it used in a Novus Ordo Mass.

There are no Prayers at the Foot of the Altar…there is no altar, it’s a table now. And since there is no tabernacle, there can be no mention of the “Holy of Holies”. Since saints & martyrs, are not thought too highly of in the Protestant Churches our “Vatican II Church” felt that the Oramus Te wasn’t needed.

Practically all the prayers of the Offertory, one of the principal parts of the Mass, were deemed useless, which means that the following six prayers are not to be found in the Novus Ordo: the Suscipe Sancte Pater, (Receive, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, thy unworthy servant, offers, etc.. This was said silently during the Latin Mass.......but we all read it in our Latin/English missals. The Deus qui Humanae, the Offerimus Tibi, the Veni Sanctificator, the Lavabo (Ps.25To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul), and the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas (Accept O Holy Trinity, etc.)......all missing in the Novus Ordo.

Add to the above mentioned changes, Novus Ordo Catholics do not kneel to receive our Lord, they shake hands with their neighbor, & pray the doxology at the end of the Lord’s Prayer & receive the Eucharist from lay people.

There is a BIG difference between the Nous Ordo Mass & the TLM.

 

[Sure]

Actually, many of the prayers that were said in the Tridentine Mass for centuries just seem to be gone. Correct me if I’m wrong but, the first thing I noticed when I started attending the Tridentine Mass again, were the prayers. I’d forgotten about so many of them & I can’t tell you how great it is to hear the prayers that actually mention our Saints: Perpetua, Anastasia. Sixtus & Clement. In the old rite the Church sets forth in a fully explicit way her doctrine of the Communion of Saints by which we are united in a bond of fellowship with all the faithful living and dead. The doctrine of the intercession of Our Lady and the Saints whose merits can win grace for our souls is given frequent prominence in the Ordinary and the Propers of the traditional Latin Mass. I believe that the Canon is now called the Eucharistic Prayer #1, but It’s been 10 yrs., at least, since I’ve heard it used in a Novus Ordo Mass.

There are no Prayers at the Foot of the Altar…there is no altar, it’s a table now. And since there is no tabernacle, there can be no mention of the “Holy of Holies”. Since saints & martyrs, are not thought too highly of in the Protestant Churches our “Vatican II Church” felt that the Oramus Te wasn’t needed.

Practically all the prayers of the Offertory, one of the principal parts of the Mass, were deemed useless, which means that the following six prayers are not to be found in the Novus Ordo: the Suscipe Sancte Pater, (Receive, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, thy unworthy servant, offers, etc.. This was said silently during the Latin Mass.......but we all read it in our Latin/English missals. The Deus qui Humanae, the Offerimus Tibi, the Veni Sanctificator, the Lavabo (Ps.25To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul), and the Suscipe Sancta Trinitas (Accept O Holy Trinity, etc.)......all missing in the Novus Ordo.

Add to the above mentioned changes, Novus Ordo Catholics do not kneel to receive our Lord, they shake hands with their neighbor, & pray the doxology at the end of the Lord’s Prayer & receive the Eucharist from lay people.

There is a BIG difference between the Nous Ordo Mass & the TLM.

Most all of the big differences you note here seem to be particular to the ordinary form Masses that you have attended. This is not at all the case with the ordinary form itself. It has many beautiful prayers and can be said entirely devoid of any protestant connotations. Just because you have only seen it one way, doesn’t mean it is only that way.

FYI, the Church has a very long and uninterrupted tradition of free standing altars.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Most all of the big differences you note here seem to be particular to the ordinary form Masses that you have attended. This is not at all the case with the ordinary form itself. It has many beautiful prayers and can be said entirely devoid of any protestant connotations. Just because you have only seen it one way, doesn’t mean it is only that way.

FYI, the Church has a very long and uninterrupted tradition of free standing altars.

No, I think CradelCath has been quite accurate concerning the prayers in the TLM that have been dropped or altered in the NO and these are not a result of attending a particular parish. For a comparison of the two missals, go here:

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

And while perhaps the NO does not have any explicit Protestant connotations, it certainly does seem that one of the main aims of Archbishop Bugnini’s committee was to remove almost anything they could that was particularly objectionable to Protestants. And thus it would not be impossible for, say, Lutherans to celebrate their service utilizing the NO. But the seminal work on this is the Ottaviani Intervention here:

latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

 

[Cristiano]

I just answered the poll and I have not read all the posts yet. My answer is NO ( but only for now). The reason being that the TLM is an EF and not the OF and mainly because there are not enough priests to celebrate it properly. My personal opinion is that the Vatican (and all the bishops should agree/follow trough) should enforce studying of Latin in seminars and mandate all the seminarians to learn both forms. If we were to have that in place, within 10 years both OF and EF could and should be mandatory in every parish.

 

[CradleCath]

No, I think CradelCath has been quite accurate concerning the prayers in the TLM that have been dropped or altered in the NO and these are not a result of attending a particular parish. For a comparison of the two missals, go here:

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

And while perhaps the NO does not have any explicit Protestant connotations, it certainly does seem that one of the main aims of Archbishop Bugnini’s committee was to remove almost anything they could that was particularly objectionable to Protestants. And thus it would not be impossible for, say, Lutherans to celebrate their service utilizing the NO. But the seminal work on this is the Ottaviani Intervention here:

latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

Thanks for your support. I mentioned before that it is the theology of the Tridentine Mass that trouble today’s liberal Catholics. More later.

 

[Margarite]

In fact, since coming to CAF, I have ASKED numerous people, young and old alike, their thoughts…and have yet to find anyone that sees Latin as anything more than a novelty.

How can anyone who does not know what something is, how can they want or desire that thing? So few people have even been to a TLM that it is hard to tell what the draw would be if everyone went at least a few times, and had someone with them to show them how to use the missal. Even the older people who went to a TLM once upon a time, they can’t really remember and they can’t compare the two. Also they may preferr the NO because it is easier for them.

Since coming to CAF, I have come to view Latin and Communion on the tongue as symbolic of a “Sister Bertha Better-n-You” crowd that I didn’t even know existed within the church. My time at CAF has turned Latin from an interesting novelty, to something I would definetely avoid.

Oh, please don’t miss understand us. We are passionate, and sometimes I guess too passionate, only because we are tired. We love the Church with all that we have, and we are tired of being alone in the fight against the forces that are trying to destroy the Church. Then we meet other people to agree with us and we feel safe. Then we meet people who do not and we become defensive because we have just found these new friends, and we realize that we are not fighting the battle alone.
We love the TLM, because it is the most reverent and beautiful way we know of worshiping God. We receive Holy Communion on the tongue because we believe our hands unworthy, and because we don’t want to risk dropping even a speck of Our Lord’s precious body on the floor. We don’t like the modern music because we don’t think it is the best way of worshiping Our Lord and God. Most of us believe in the validity of the NO, most of us go to the NO every Sunday, but while we think it is good, we do not believe that it is the BEST that we can give God. He gave us everything, the least we can do is our best. If we become passionate, forgive us, it is the passion of people who are suddenly realizing that there is hope, that they are not alone in a difficult struggle, And sometimes we think too much of Christ throwing the money changers out of the temple and too little of him saving the prostitute from stoning. Try to remind us sometimes of compassion, and don’t take our passion personally, it is not you we are fighting, we want you on our side.

Sorry.

Yours Through Our Lady & St. Patrick,

Margarite

 

[Ignatius]

Yes of course. We should have both NO and TLM

Absolutely, it would be wrong to deprive those who are blessed by worshiping in that form from worshiping in it.

 

[Margarite]

youtube.com/watch?v=roPPBpk4vcA&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=zw6995uGbaU&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=WlkNpLnEqIY&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6KWt49wIA&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8&feature=related

Brother John
This is why we love the TLM so much, not because the NO is bad in and of itself, but because it allows for the above listed abuses. I have been to many beautiful NO masses, but also many, many more that were…not in line with Church teachings.
EWTN, Holy Ghost Church in Denver 10:00am mass, Immaculate Conception Cathedral Denver, St. Bridget Church Las Vegas 9:30am mass, St. Rita Church Santa Rosa Florida (5 years ago), etc… These are Churches that have beautiful NO masses, but there are many, many more that have not so good masses.
I personally prefer the half-Latin half-English mass, it is so beautiful, and I can understand it, but I guess if I went to enough TLMs, I would get used to them and I would probably like them better. In some ways I am with Brother John, many people in the TLM groups are very judgemental and often refuse to go to a NO despite claiming that they believe it to be valid, even if they have to skip Sunday mass, they refuse to go to the NO.

But every person is different and every mass is different, even the TLMs.

Have a Wonder Full St. Patrick’s day,

Yours Through Our Lady & St. Patrick,

Margarite

 

[HelenRose]

I certainly would. I think it should be changed.

I would like to see the T.L.M. in each parish. But I would not like to see it mandated. I think that as time goes on it will naturally become part of every parish. As this happens in a loving and beautiful way, more people will come to appreciate it.

We need to trust the beauty of the T.L.M. We need to trust the Holy Spirit in quiding all of us to a closer communion with God.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yes - we need to trust the Holy Spirit.

We don’t need the TLM in ever parish whether one thinks it is beautiful or not.

 

[lampstand]

I think it’s not so unreasonable to ask each parish to have one at least once a week. Depending on the size of a parish, they may need to decide whether to do so more often than that. But just to allow the faithful to begin to experience this part of Church life on a regular basis, and to see the richness of it, I would hope they do so.

 

[Father_Tom]

I think it’s not so unreasonable to ask each parish to have one at least once a week. Depending on the size of a parish, they may need to decide whether to do so more often than that. But just to allow the faithful to begin to experience this part of Church life on a regular basis, and to see the richness of it, I would hope they do so.

When you say “once a week”, are you saying that the “once” must be on a Sunday? If so, what is your reasoning?

Thank you,

Fr. T

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I think it’s not so unreasonable to ask each parish to have one at least once a week. Depending on the size of a parish, they may need to decide whether to do so more often than that. But just to allow the faithful to begin to experience this part of Church life on a regular basis, and to see the richness of it, I would hope they do so.

One in every parish is not needed for that NOR did the MP speak of promoting attendance of the TLM.

I am all for doing what the Pope laid out in the MP.

 

[pnewton]

Questions like this are the reason why the Church allows for a great deal of local control. Why have a priest who is already saying five Masses every weekend and a sixth if there is not interest in the TLM? Any rule across the board would be ridiculous. What about small parishes with an itenirate priest who only does one or two Masses a week? Should they have to add an extra burden for the sake of traditionlists in other parts of the country who will never know they exist?