- Status
You are so much fun. You just don’t get it … my humor/sarcasm, that is…
M
MrS
Guest
piouswomen, don’t you see that has been what you have been doing…proving your points with non-facts, misrepresentations, personal bias, etc… or in this case, with humor.
I suggested a number of posts back that you consider reading “Salvation Outside The Church” by
books.google.com/books?id=_EsIe7CCAwYC&dq=fr+stravinskas+salvation+outside&pg=PP1&ots=BX_BVTYoEH&sig=6dKKKCEH2KQlF9zRf8a6Yd95cqo&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fr+stravinskas+Salvation+outside&btnG=Google+Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPA5,M1
.
P
piouswoman
Guest
MrS…thanks anyway but I have told you already, I don’t consider that book to be authoritative, nor would any traditional Catholic. What is authoritative is the dogma, No salvation outside of the Catholic Church, when properly understood.
Here for you, I provide an authoritative explanation:
Will all men go to heaven? Will everyone be saved?
Though the sacrifice of Jesus Christ offered once for all on Calvary and made present at each and every valid Mass is more than sufficient to save all men without exception, it does not follow that all men will consequently be saved. It is a fundamental doctrine of St. Paul that salvation can be acquired only by the grace merited by Christ, and St. Peter himself testified before the High Council “neither is there salvation in any other” (Acts 4:12).
Furthermore this is the significance of the dictum “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Outside of Christ there is nothing, for the gods of the Gentiles are demons (Ps. 95:5).
Ignorance, even if invincible, is not in itself an infallible means of salvation. There is the most serious of obligations to seek the truth, incumbent upon all who are not of the household of the Catholic Faith.
The grace of Christ is always given and must not be refused, and Christ established only one Church in which God is worshipped in spirit and in truth.
It is the deliberate and studied ambiguity of recent texts which causes confusion and leads into the path of error, all religions are not equal, all religions are not good. There is no regard for truth, the truth of Christ, in much recent ecclesiastical teaching.
In a recent review of Crossing the Threshold of Hope, an English journalist writes that reports of the pope’s infallibility are somewhat exaggerated. Everything the Holy Father says is not infallibly true, especially in his remarks on other religions. I will quote Noel Malcolm at length:
Code:
He talks [the pope] in relation to other religions —as if spirituality were just an aspect of human experience as such, something which can be found among Hindus, Confucians and ancestor-worshipping aborigines. He even suggests that having the rudiments of spiritual experience connects such people with Christianity and makes them eligible for salvation —a claim which I believe teeters on the edge of heresy (Noel Malcolm, Sunday Telegraph, London, November 6, 1994).
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Why are you so quick to believe that it is the non-Catholic with shallow knowledge that understands, and those to whom God has given teaching authority who do not? I mean, besides the fact that the non-believer agrees with you and our teachers and shepherds do not? Is it possible that there are some truths of the faith that you and the non-Catholic have not considered?
John Paul II did not in any manner teach that all religions were equal, and our current Holy Father, whom John Paul hand-picked as his Prefect for the Congregation of the Faith, most adamantly does not. It is just that they refuse to teach, as you would seem want them to, that all other attempts to connect with God are all rotten to the core, without any breath of truth in them.
That the devil can use a subtle perversion of the truth to prey on souls does not mean that the devil would willingly allow a soul any measure of the truth he didn’t have to give them. In the pursuit of souls, it is God who is the most relentless, not the devil.
E
elt1956
Guest
C
Cat
Guest
This thread is very off topic. Including all these discussions about invincible ignorance in a topic about TLM means that people interested in that topic will never know it’s here.
BTW, I believe in what the Catechism teaches about salvation for non-Catholics.
And for those who glibly pronounce hell for Protestants–have you ever been Protestant? It is not an exaggeration if I say that most Protestants are as likely to become Catholic as you are to start worshipping the cockroaches. They have been taught for many generations that Catholicism is an ungodly, man-centered cult based on Babylonian mystery religions. THAT is invincible ignorance, my friends. If you haven’t been there, then don’t judge them. Ask yourself, “How likely am I to start worshipping cockroaches?” Then you will have a little understanding of how many Protestants think.
BTW, I believe in what the Catechism teaches about salvation for non-Catholics.
And for those who glibly pronounce hell for Protestants–have you ever been Protestant? It is not an exaggeration if I say that most Protestants are as likely to become Catholic as you are to start worshipping the cockroaches. They have been taught for many generations that Catholicism is an ungodly, man-centered cult based on Babylonian mystery religions. THAT is invincible ignorance, my friends. If you haven’t been there, then don’t judge them. Ask yourself, “How likely am I to start worshipping cockroaches?” Then you will have a little understanding of how many Protestants think.
E
elt1956
Guest
I cannot in my heart, condemn someone who with all their heart and soul is searching for God, but has somehow missed the Catholic path.
Therefore I will have to leave the judgement of whether a person who is not Catholic will be saved or not up to God as it is God who judges us all.
Peace.
E
elt1956
Guest
Dear Cat. I have come to the conclusion that this particular forum has become one of intolerance, let alone love and understanding. Since you are new to the faith, I hope you will do as I am because this could give you a skewed judgement Catholic beliefs. I am going to:
Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them.
Peace.
L
laudamus_te
Guest
This is called liberal Catholicism. You both have been infected by the spirit of ecumenism, which has led you to believe that I, by simply stating a basic truth of our Faith, have somehow “judged” or become “intolerant.” This is a fine example of liberal, politically correct thinking run amok. If you do not believe even one of the truths of our Faith, if you reject just one, then you reject the entire Faith. If you do not accept the truth of our Faith which says that “no one comes to the Father except through Me,” and if you do not believe in “one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church,” then you cannot be truly Catholic.
How is it charitable to turn your head from the errors of Protestantism, to do nothing to open their eyes to the truth? No need to lecture me, Cat, about what it means to be Protestant. I have Protestant family members. My husband was Protestant until he converted. I am fed up with this glib attitude which has infected our Church towards false religions, all thanks to “ecumenism.”
M
Marilyn_Muench
Guest
Perhaps there could be a TLM within a 1 hour drive in metropolitan areas. Since the Mass that the Pope seems to want is the High Mass, with Gregorian Chant, and a consistent real congregation that becomes a community, this would be too much to ask of a normal parish. I would hope that such a center would provide the Missals (some with large print). They should also provide adequate translations for the Latin Hymns. To my knowledge there is no Latin speaking congregations out there in existence, so the newly formed ones will have to pay attention to instructing the congregants in the Latin language.
J
johnnydigit
Guest
“too much to ask of a normal parish”… nothing is impossible for God. too cliche? have faith and pray, take some initiative, and see what happens…
T
trobinson017
Guest
I’m 43, have never been to anything but an NO Mass and am among those older folks who recognize the destruction caused by Vatican II and the NO Mass. So it’s not just the “old folks” who were blessed to have spent part of their lives attending Mass when it was the only Mass and had been for centuries. There are many younger people who have recognized very little difference between some Catholic Masses and Protestant services who are also interested in a return to the true Catholic Mass. I have been to some very good NO Masses that incorporated some of the TLM elements without going over the line and those were magnificient. But there are too few of those and none near me now.
I haven’t been to a TLM but we do have one nearby at 12:30pm on Sundays that I will definitely go to, to see if I want to attend it exclusively.
trob
I haven’t been to a TLM but we do have one nearby at 12:30pm on Sundays that I will definitely go to, to see if I want to attend it exclusively.
trob
C
Cat
Guest
Are you saying that what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about salvation and non-Catholics is “liberal Catholicism?”
And I beg your pardon, but how dare you accuse me of “doing nothing to open their eyes to the truth.”
My older daughter was received into the Catholic Church two weeks ago, four years after me and her daddy. She is a graduate of Calvin College, and thoroughly indoctrinated in the ways of Calvinistic Protestantism. Her last term paper at Calvin was titled, “Why the Catholic Belief of the Eucharist is False.”
Yet this dear young woman became a joyful Catholic two weeks ago.
Who do you suppose helped lead this woman home? Certainly by the grace of God and the intercession of the Blessed Mother and the saints, but WHO actually answered her questions, sent her books, gave her Rosaries, and listened to her sobs as she tried to decide whether she should become Catholic?
Her sister is still on the journey. I continue to pray to the Blessed Mother and any saint who will listen (especially St. Anthony of Padua) to lead our younger daughter home, too. And her fiance. And for that matter, our whole family. We’re working on them!
I trust that you are doing as much to “open their eyes to the truth.”
E
elt1956
Guest
Neither Cat nor I are TURNING OUR HEADS, but we are reaching to OUR BRETHREN In
Christ in the understanding that we hu/mans Catholic, or Protestant, Hindu, or Buddhist are not perfect, nor do ANY of us have a perfect understanding of God. Do I hold to the doctrines of the Catholic Church? You bet. But I also have a respect for the dignity of other hu/mans Catholic, or not. I also give them the responsibility to seek their true path to God. The Inquisition didn’t work. What makes you think your attitude will?
E
elt1956
Guest
P.S. Ecumenism means cooperation between parties. The beginning is to find the lowest common denominator of belief and work upward from there.Neither Cat nor I are TURNING OUR HEADS, but we are reaching to OUR BRETHREN In
Christ in the understanding that we hu/mans Catholic, or Protestant, Hindu, or Buddhist are not perfect, nor do ANY of us have a perfect understanding of God. Do I hold to the doctrines of the Catholic Church? You bet. But I also have a respect for the dignity of other hu/mans Catholic, or not. I also give them the responsibility to seek their true path to God. The Inquisition didn’t work. What makes you think your attitude will?
M
Marilyn_Muench
Guest
Faith, prayer, initiative - all of these are what we do for any goal in the church. ‘Nothing is impossible for God’ is a dangerous cliche which can get any one in a very difficult position theologically.
Prayer is a challenging aspect of our being to put into words. I learned to pray in 4 different modes: Adoration, contrition, thanksgiving, supplication. Each mode calls forth a totally different piece of me, be it intellectual or emotive, passive or aggressive, receiving or giving, watching or acting, isolated or community oriented, personal or universal, spiritually soaring or deepening, and so forth.
I recall reading that St Teresa of Avila had ecstacies while praying the psalms in Latin, even though she did not understand even one word that she was saying. How is it that I can pray, and be totally immersed in the Mass in its fullest meaning, while I am in foreign countries at Masses that are in Bulgarian, Hungarian, Polish, German, Gaellic, French, Italian, Spanish, Greek - and thus not able to understand even the sermon?
What about being put into a state of deep awareness of God by music, with and without words, understood or not.
I would like to talk about what the elements of a liturgy are that enable each of us to pray. What is it that helps and does not hinder worship.
E
elt1956
Guest
I would love to discuss both forms of the Mass in this way also. But do you really think most could do it without rancor??
Peace
P
piouswoman
Guest
I am sorry but this post to be honest, is a perfect example of true ignorance and I don’t mean it in an insulting way, only in the way that the poster is truly ignorant of facts. It takes a bit of re-educating or just plain old educating oneself on the TLM. Every missal has the translation in the vernacular. One can follow the Latin Mass in Latin or in English. After time, of course one cannot help but learn certain bits and phrases or even perhaps prayers, in Latin. One would think by this post that a TLM missal is in Latin only and everyone is left in the dark as to what is happening of being said…nothing could be further from the truth.
The true beauty of Latin only as the universal language of the church as it was for centuries before the modernists destroyed it all, is that one could go to a Catholic Church anywhere on the face of the earth and feel right at home with the Mass and know that it is the Catholic Mass, just as they would hear it being prayed at home, or by any Catholic anywhere, in any time, in any place and in just about anytime in history. Sad, the destruction of the church by the progressives.
E
elt1956
Guest
Dear Woman. Agreed. I have two Latin/English Missles which I used during High School and beyond, but I think one of the problems many people would have, as with any foreign language, would be the pronunciation of such. It would be up to us old timers to help out in this, I think.
Peace.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
“I don’t mean it in an insulting way”, but I hope that when people tell you that you’re “more Catholic than the Pope”, you aren’t too quick to take it as a compliment. Honestly, I am sure you are a dear woman and very devout, but your poorly-aimed diatribes do wear on a person. (Well, this one, anyone. I won’t speak for anyone else.)
You forget how many parishes in this country are thankful if they can find ONE priest, usually retired and heroically continuing to minister to the faithful anyway, who will fit them in to do ONE Mass each week. There are older priests who are doing three Masses every weekend for the little rural parishes. When those priests die, those parishes aren’t going to get Mass regularly any more. What, you’re going to tell them that if they had gotten the TLM back a little sooner, the vocation crisis would have been solved and they wouldn’t have that problem?
You talk about “feeling right at home.” There are a great many people under 50 who don’t “feel right at home” with Latin. These people include some priests. Honestly, why wouldn’t Catholics be just as happy attending a NO in Spanish? Or French? Do you think they couldn’t learn to understand it the same way as you think we should all learn to understand Latin?
I’m happy that you find the TLM so edifying. Frankly, though, I don’t find it edifying in the least that you keep trying to blame everything that’s wrong with the Church on a Mass that didn’t even exist when the problems started. Go ahead and and prefer the TLM. It’s a beautiful and ancient rite, I won’t argue that. If you’ve set yourself in the opinion that the NO isn’t “Mass enough” for you, though, if not even the Pope can offer it reverently enough to suit you, don’t look for me to hope for a big resurgence of the TLM. A little of that kind of talk goes a very long way.
- Status