Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[piouswoman]

Dear Woman. Agreed. I have two Latin/English Missles which I used during High School and beyond, but I think one of the problems many people would have, as with any foreign language, would be the pronunciation of such. It would be up to us old timers to help out in this, I think. Peace.

Dear elt, I am glad we can agree on something. I don’t consider the pronunciation such a big deal. I didn’t know anything about Latin until close to three years ago, and I have learned quite a bit. In time as with anything, people learn. It is nice I agree to have those who are old timers or know more, to give others a helping hand. I would be ever ready to help anyone who asks me for any advice on the TLM.

 

[piouswoman]

“I don’t mean it in an insulting way”, but I hope that when people tell you that you’re “more Catholic than the Pope”, you aren’t too quick to take it as a compliment. Honestly, I am sure you are a dear woman and very devout, but your poorly-aimed diatribes do wear on a person. (Well, this one, anyone. I won’t speak for anyone else.)

You forget how many parishes in this country are thankful if they can find ONE priest, usually retired and heroically continuing to minister to the faithful anyway, who will fit them in to do ONE Mass each week. There are older priests who are doing three Masses every weekend for the little rural parishes. When those priests die, those parishes aren’t going to get Mass regularly any more. What, you’re going to tell them that if they had gotten the TLM back a little sooner, the vocation crisis would have been solved and they wouldn’t have that problem?

You talk about “feeling right at home.” There are a great many people under 50 who don’t “feel right at home” with Latin. These people include some priests. Honestly, why wouldn’t Catholics be just as happy attending a NO in Spanish? Or French? Do you think they couldn’t learn to understand it the same way as you think we should all learn to understand Latin?

I’m happy that you find the TLM so edifying. Frankly, though, I don’t find it edifying in the least that you keep trying to blame everything that’s wrong with the Church on a Mass that didn’t even exist when the problems started. Go ahead and and prefer the TLM. It’s a beautiful and ancient rite, I won’t argue that. If you’ve set yourself in the opinion that the NO isn’t “Mass enough” for you, though, if not even the Pope can offer it reverently enough to suit you, don’t look for me to hope for a big resurgence of the TLM. A little of that kind of talk goes a very long way.

Did you ever stop to think that your diatribe is wearing on me? Yes, I find the TLM to be absolutely perfect and it is often called “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven”, but where you have really missed the target is when you state that I am trying to blame everything that is wrong with the Church on the Novus Ordo. The truth is, the problems of the Church go MUCH deeper than that…it is about the DOCTRINES OF OUR FAITH. THAT IS WHAT THE FIGHT IS ABOUT. They have been tampered with, swept aside and disregarded, interpreted wrongly and with ambiguity, changed to fit the modernist agenda, ignored in favor of novelties, and much has been abandoned in favor of error ridden teaching. Traditons are scoffed at, called outdated and not “changing with the times”, not keeping up with the world, not politically correct. Well the fact is, the Church cannot change, because the TRUTH cannot change.

 

[elt1956]

Dear elt, I am glad we can agree on something. I don’t consider the pronunciation such a big deal. I didn’t know anything about Latin until close to three years ago, and I have learned quite a bit. In time as with anything, people learn. It is nice I agree to have those who are old timers or know more, to give others a helping hand. I would be ever ready to help anyone who asks me for any advice on the TLM.

And I would be quite happy to help out with the pronunciation of the Latin with anyone interested. Peace.

 

[holdencaulfield]

And I would be quite happy to help out with the pronunciation of the Latin with anyone interested. Peace.

Latin

Hope this helps.

 

[elt1956]

Latin

Hope this helps.

Thanks. I think I could back in the flow very quickly. Peace

 

[Marilyn_Muench]

I would love to discuss both forms of the Mass in this way also. But do you really think most could do it without rancor?? Peace​

I recall overhearing another person, at a concert where the words were translated in a brochure, saying ‘I didn’t know that “Ave Maria” meant “Hail Mary”’.​

This got me to thinking that when I say ‘Agnus Dei’ it doesn’t mean ‘Lamb of God’ to me unless I translate it in my head. But, somehow, it does mean something familiar and prayerful to me. The Latin words could not be used in a spoken context, but in a prayerful context, the sentiment and/or emotion prevails.​

This makes me think about our TLM - NO discussions here. How is it that we learn to pray and in what context. "Lifting our minds and hearts to God’ is what I was taught. That process of learning to pray and to worship God is what interests me.​

I am again reminded about bringing the Eucharist to a Nursing Home and praying with an elderly woman who had been living and working in the English speaking American world for over 50 years - and yet, she prayed only in Italian. I know many people like that. They, for some reason, cannot transfer their spoken prayer into another language from the one they started out with. I find that this is a fascinating and challenging fact.​

Love to all who are grappling with this TLM-NO problem.

 

[laudamus_te]

Are you saying that what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about salvation and non-Catholics is “liberal Catholicism?”

And I beg your pardon, but how dare you accuse me of “doing nothing to open their eyes to the truth.”

My older daughter was received into the Catholic Church two weeks ago, four years after me and her daddy. She is a graduate of Calvin College, and thoroughly indoctrinated in the ways of Calvinistic Protestantism. Her last term paper at Calvin was titled, “Why the Catholic Belief of the Eucharist is False.”

Yet this dear young woman became a joyful Catholic two weeks ago.

Who do you suppose helped lead this woman home? Certainly by the grace of God and the intercession of the Blessed Mother and the saints, but WHO actually answered her questions, sent her books, gave her Rosaries, and listened to her sobs as she tried to decide whether she should become Catholic?

Her sister is still on the journey. I continue to pray to the Blessed Mother and any saint who will listen (especially St. Anthony of Padua) to lead our younger daughter home, too. And her fiance. And for that matter, our whole family. We’re working on them!

I trust that you are doing as much to “open their eyes to the truth.”

I’m sorry, but if you would return to my original post which you quoted here, you will see that I bolded your words “then don’t judge them,” as well as elt’s words about “intolerance.” Those quotes were what I was responding to when I said that this was an example of liberalism. It is not in any way judgmental to believe what Christ taught us… that no one comes to the Father except through Him. And it is not “intolerant.” Accusations of “judgmental” and “intolerance” are modernist catchwords. You keep saying you believe what the catechism teaches about salvation of non-Catholics, and I’m sure you do since you are going to great pains to convert your family. I know it is not easy to think about what fate awaits those who do not embrace the Truth.

Neither Cat nor I are TURNING OUR HEADS, but we are reaching to OUR BRETHREN In Christ in the understanding that we hu/mans Catholic, or Protestant, Hindu, or Buddhist are not perfect, nor do ANY of us have a perfect understanding of God. Do I hold to the doctrines of the Catholic Church? You bet. But I also have a respect for the dignity of other hu/mans Catholic, or not. I also give them the responsibility to seek their true path to God. The Inquisition didn’t work. What makes you think your attitude will?

See what I bolded? That is not charitable. That is what I mean by “turning your head.” Also, it is great to have respect for the dignity of other humans, but it is NOT right to have respect for their false beliefs.

 

[piouswoman]

In response to Marilyn Muench:

The beauty of the Tridentine Latin Mass and the Latin missal is that one can pray in ones own tongue, yet be fully assured and able to rely on the fact that the priest is always praying the Holy Mass in the same language of the Church, the words of the Holy Mass can never changed or be tampered with, hence, it is always doctrinally correct, it is always the same to the ear and the missal that one carries will be carried for a lifetime no matter where on earth one may be, and one may pray the Holy Mass along with the priest in ones own tongue. No wonder the universal language of the Church is LATIN. No wonder the Holy Mass had remained beautifully unchanged and properly guarded for centuries. It is the tradition that the church must return to before many more generations have lost all touch with what it really means to be a Catholic.

 

[Sure]

In response to Marilyn Muench:

The beauty of the Tridentine Latin Mass and the Latin missal is that one can pray in ones own tongue, yet be fully assured and able to rely on the fact that the priest is always praying the Holy Mass in the same language of the Church, the words of the Holy Mass can never changed or be tampered with, hence, it is always doctrinally correct, it is always the same to the ear and the missal that one carries will be carried for a lifetime no matter where on earth one may be, and one may pray the Holy Mass along with the priest in ones own tongue. No wonder the universal language of the Church is LATIN. No wonder the Holy Mass had remained beautifully unchanged and properly guarded for centuries. It is the tradition that the church must return to before many more generations have lost all touch with what it really means to be a Catholic.

You are right. Latin is useful and it is good for the Church because it is a dead language, and does not change.

But your last sentence seems a bit off. Having the Mass in the vernacular (which, after all, is how we got Latin in the first place) done correctly does not cause people to lose touch with “what it really means to be a Catholic.”

 

[piouswoman]

You are right. Latin is useful and it is good for the Church because it is a dead language, and does not change.

But your last sentence seems a bit off. Having the Mass in the vernacular (which, after all, is how we got Latin in the first place) done correctly does not cause people to lose touch with “what it really means to be a Catholic.”

But that is exactly what has happened. The vernacular use has led to many changes in wording, personal interpretation by priests, and use of novelty in the Holy Mass. The loss of tradition has caused many of the younger generations of Catholics to really not understand their faith.

 

[elt1956]

I would love to discuss both forms of the Mass in this way also. But do you really think most could do it without rancor?? Peace​

I recall overhearing another person, at a concert where the words were translated in a brochure, saying ‘I didn’t know that “Ave Maria” meant “Hail Mary”’.​

This got me to thinking that when I say ‘Agnus Dei’ it doesn’t mean ‘Lamb of God’ to me unless I translate it in my head. But, somehow, it does mean something familiar and prayerful to me. The Latin words could not be used in a spoken context, but in a prayerful context, the sentiment and/or emotion prevails.​

This makes me think about our TLM - NO discussions here. How is it that we learn to pray and in what context. "Lifting our minds and hearts to God’ is what I was taught. That process of learning to pray and to worship God is what interests me.​

I am again reminded about bringing the Eucharist to a Nursing Home and praying with an elderly woman who had been living and working in the English speaking American world for over 50 years - and yet, she prayed only in Italian. I know many people like that. They, for some reason, cannot transfer their spoken prayer into another language from the one they started out with. I find that this is a fascinating and challenging fact.​

Love to all who are grappling with this TLM-NO problem.

Hello Marilyn. I don’t understand the consternation between the two forms of the Mass at all. They are both beautiful in their own way and both give worship to God. What’s not to like. I have posted “my story” before, but in case you haven’t discovered it on this thread, my childhood was during the era of the Latin Mass, Tridentine Mass, High Mass, Low Mass, all of it. I loved it. There is somethng to be said about the dignity and reverence of TLM. I would love to experience it again, but not to the extent of the exclusion of the NO. It is funny, but I hadn’t looked at my Latin/English Missle since the 60s I guess, but when this topic came up on the Forum I went back to look at one of mine. The Latin popped out at me as so foreign and I had lived it in my earliest years. But Latin was not my Native tongue as Italian was for your little Italian lady. So I can imagine why folks having experienced only the NO Mass in their own language are having a difficult time accepting even the IDEA of TLM. But I think once they accepted the form through attending a few times, things would settle in for them. Personally, for me, both forms are wonderful.

 

[CradleCath]

I’m 65 and I couldn’t have said it better. Thank You!!

Thank you so much. I hope that my post didn’t sound too strident, but it contains the thoughts of an extremely tired Catholic.

IMO., the whole theology of the Novus Ordo has become people-oriented, not God oriented. I don’t believe it was the intention of the council that this happen, but it did.

If the clergy & theologians present at Vatican II thought that this kind of abrupt cessation of all that was pious & holy to the laity was going to help us, it’s time that they admit that it hasn’t.

We now see an emphasis on the memorial supper, NOT a recreation of the Last Supper & the Crucifixion which followed it. . It’s almost as if those at Vatican II (or more correctly, those who put Vatican II into actual practice) agreed with Martin Luther who once said, “The mass is **not a sacrifice **but a thanksgiving to God and a communion with believers.” (2)

And the priesthood of the faithful? I, personally have no desire to be a priest & I don’t have a vocation toward the religious life. I am happy & feel blessed just to be part of the laity of the Catholic Church. That is honor enough for me. God could have chosen to have me born into another faith, or led away from the Church. This so-called “priesthood of the faithful” has been over-emphasized and causes confusion with the **sacramental **priesthood. Catholic teaching is that it is the priest, and the priest alone, who is necessary for the Mass to be effective. To the contrary, the New Mass promotes the idea that the priest is a mere delegate/presider of the assembly, and the people are an essential part of the “celebration.”

In fact, the General Instruction on the Novus Ordo states that the “people of God” celebrates the rite with the “priest-presider.” This, in turn, infers that the priest…a man chosen by God, a man given the power to transubstantiate a piece of bread, a man who can forgive SINS… for crying out loud, a man who devotes his whole life to Christ, to the Catholic Church & it’s people…is rather incidental to the faith. Does anyone really wonder why no good, manly men want to become ordained?

I could go on & on…I feel that the Communion of the Saints, & every Catholic is part of that, has just been forgotten. The holy atmosphere that made our Churches unique has gone the way of the statues & the Communion rail. Our priests use PROPS to deliver the sermon (oh, excuse me…the HOMILY), our nuns are gone & with them so many of our Catholic schools.

I try not to be negative & angry but sometimes the words just come pouring out.

Thanks again to those who understand my feelings.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you so much. I hope that my post didn’t sound too strident, but it contains the thoughts of an extremely tired Catholic.

I want you to have the TLM, I really do. I know why it is missed. Nevetheless, the traditionalist Catholics are not the only ones who are tired, trust me.

…Does anyone really wonder why no good, manly men want to become ordained?

I could go on & on…

I understand your feelings, but maybe that so many people “can go on & on” has a bit to do why it takes a brave man to take on priestly ordination, let alone the episcopacy.

I mean, really…we have a Church where both the “traditional” and the “liberal” think they have the perogative to refuse to listen to the Pope, the only difference being which part of the faith the faithful don’t want to listen to. I remember the days when “what Father says, goes” was the rule, let alone what the Pope said. Now it comes at them from all sides, and when their answer doesn’t suit, the priests get a call from the bishop. The bishops get inquiries from Rome, and probably Rome gets calls from the bishops. What chance does a pastor have now, at the parish level?

It would be easier to take on a life devoted to training cats to perform in marching bands. “Manly man”? To become a priest, you have to want to be a saintly man, because there is a martyrdom of a thousand cuts waiting for you, no matter what you do.

 

[laudamus_te]

Thank you so much. I hope that my post didn’t sound too strident, but it contains the thoughts of an extremely tired Catholic.

IMO., the whole theology of the Novus Ordo has become people-oriented, not God oriented. I don’t believe it was the intention of the council that this happen, but it did.

If the clergy & theologians present at Vatican II thought that this kind of abrupt cessation of all that was pious & holy to the laity was going to help us, it’s time that they admit that it hasn’t.

We now see an emphasis on the memorial supper, NOT a recreation of the Last Supper & the Crucifixion which followed it. . It’s almost as if those at Vatican II (or more correctly, those who put Vatican II into actual practice) agreed with Martin Luther who once said, “The mass is **not a sacrifice **but a thanksgiving to God and a communion with believers.” (2)

And the priesthood of the faithful? I, personally have no desire to be a priest & I don’t have a vocation toward the religious life. I am happy & feel blessed just to be part of the laity of the Catholic Church. That is honor enough for me. God could have chosen to have me born into another faith, or led away from the Church. This so-called “priesthood of the faithful” has been over-emphasized and causes confusion with the **sacramental **priesthood. Catholic teaching is that it is the priest, and the priest alone, who is necessary for the Mass to be effective. To the contrary, the New Mass promotes the idea that the priest is a mere delegate/presider of the assembly, and the people are an essential part of the “celebration.”

In fact, the General Instruction on the Novus Ordo states that the “people of God” celebrates the rite with the “priest-presider.” This, in turn, infers that the priest…a man chosen by God, a man given the power to transubstantiate a piece of bread, a man who can forgive SINS… for crying out loud, a man who devotes his whole life to Christ, to the Catholic Church & it’s people…is rather incidental to the faith. Does anyone really wonder why no good, manly men want to become ordained?

I could go on & on…I feel that the Communion of the Saints, & every Catholic is part of that, has just been forgotten. The holy atmosphere that made our Churches unique has gone the way of the statues & the Communion rail. Our priests use PROPS to deliver the sermon (oh, excuse me…the HOMILY), our nuns are gone & with them so many of our Catholic schools.

I try not to be negative & angry but sometimes the words just come pouring out.

Thanks again to those who understand my feelings.

I understand completely - your posts are great! If only all Catholics could recognize that the changes since VII have greatly diminished the role of the priest and the sense of sacrifice in the Mass. The manly men disappeared, and the seminaries became hotbeds of homosexuality, leading to the priest abuse scandals. But now, traditional orders and seminaries are bursting at the seams. We will take back our Church!

 

[elt1956]

I’m sorry, but if you would return to my original post which you quoted here, you will see that I bolded your words “then don’t judge them,” as well as elt’s words about “intolerance.” Those quotes were what I was responding to when I said that this was an example of liberalism. It is not in any way judgmental to believe what Christ taught us… that no one comes to the Father except through Him. And it is not “intolerant.” Accusations of “judgmental” and “intolerance” are modernist catchwords. You keep saying you believe what the catechism teaches about salvation of non-Catholics, and I’m sure you do since you are going to great pains to convert your family. I know it is not easy to think about what fate awaits those who do not embrace the Truth.

See what I bolded? That is not charitable. That is what I mean by “turning your head.” Also, it is great to have respect for the dignity of other humans, but it is NOT right to have respect for their false beliefs.

You put your own thoughts into my words.

 

[elt1956]

I’m sorry, but if you would return to my original post which you quoted here, you will see that I bolded your words “then don’t judge them,” as well as elt’s words about “intolerance.” Those quotes were what I was responding to when I said that this was an example of liberalism. It is not in any way judgmental to believe what Christ taught us… that no one comes to the Father except through Him. And it is not “intolerant.” Accusations of “judgmental” and “intolerance” are modernist catchwords. You keep saying you believe what the catechism teaches about salvation of non-Catholics, and I’m sure you do since you are going to great pains to convert your family. I know it is not easy to think about what fate awaits those who do not embrace the Truth.

See what I bolded? That is not charitable. That is what I mean by “turning your head.” Also, it is great to have respect for the dignity of other humans, but it is NOT right to have respect for their false beliefs.

You put your own thoughts into my words.

P. S. How can one allow another dignity if one is beating the other over the head with what is seen as mistakes, errors, heresy? And yes, everyone is responsible for their own decisions. That is one thing wrong with this world, no one wants to take responsibilty for their actions or beliefs.

 

[Cat]

I understand completely - your posts are great! If only all Catholics could recognize that the changes since VII have greatly diminished the role of the priest and the sense of sacrifice in the Mass. The manly men disappeared, and the seminaries became hotbeds of homosexuality, leading to the priest abuse scandals. But now, traditional orders and seminaries are bursting at the seams. We will take back our Church!

I find this frightening.

I attend wonderful NO Masses, although according to many of the traditionalists, I am attending a farce.

That’s NOT what my bishop says. HE is in charge, thank God, not YOU.

Please stop insulting the Mass that my bishop and my Church have approved! It is NOT lacking anything. If you like Latin and theatrical displays during worship, wonderful. I hope you all have the opportunity to serve at this kind of Mass. But PLEASE stop insisting that all Catholics must eventually "be “taken back.” That’s frightening.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I find this frightening.

I attend wonderful NO Masses, although according to many of the traditionalists, I am attending a farce.

That’s NOT what my bishop says. HE is in charge, thank God, not YOU.

Please stop insulting the Mass that my bishop and my Church have approved! It is NOT lacking anything. If you like Latin and theatrical displays during worship, wonderful. I hope you all have the opportunity to serve at this kind of Mass. But PLEASE stop insisting that all Catholics must eventually "be “taken back.” That’s frightening.

Thats not what we were implying merely that the Church should require each parish to have one service in the Traditional Mass that has been used for thousands of years because it is a more reverent show of faith and we shouldn’t continue to force people to schism that enjoy the Traditional Mass. Many people have left the Church because of this and turned to the SSPX or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[EasterJoy]

I understand completely - your posts are great! If only all Catholics could recognize that the changes since VII have greatly diminished the role of the priest and the sense of sacrifice in the Mass. The manly men disappeared, and the seminaries became hotbeds of homosexuality, leading to the priest abuse scandals. But now, traditional orders and seminaries are bursting at the seams. We will take back our Church!

The “manly men” have disappeared? The ingratitude in that false statement staggers the mind. You libel thousands of holy and dedicated priests, including my pastor…thousands of holy and dedicated men, I might add, that you have never met!

If that is what you have been saying about our pastors, why is it that you are surprised that young men do not want to follow in their footsteps? Who is going to dare to follow men whom their mothers and fathers criticize so unfairly, save those who say to themselves “I can do better than that”? What a humble way to start to a holy and humble priesthood! Do you see the disservice this kind of talk about today’s priests does to tomorrow’s priests, not to mention those of today? I should say it would take a manly man, to allow his life to be consumed in exchange for treatment like that.

You will take back “your Church”, will you? I have news for you: those priest abuse scandals in the state of Oregon didn’t come from priests ordained after Vatican II, on the whole. The accusations are 30 and 40 and 50 years old, against priests who were weaned on the TLM. Those men were formed in “your Church”! I will not speak of every one, but the lion’s share of accusations came against priests raised the “traditional” way, removed from the society of women other than their relatives by the age of fourteen or so. You can ask the psychologists what that does to a man’s psychosexual development.

You seem to think that there were no scandals or accusations about Catholic priests and homosexuality or pedophilia in the priesthood until now. Maybe you think child sexual abuse was invented by the clerics who came up with the NO. Guess what? It has only been in the last 50 years that anyone believed the boys (and girls) who had been abused…well, except the Catholics who left the faith because nobody believed them. They went out and told their stories, and they were believed. It was a scandal against us that we didn’t want to face. I know a family that is not Catholic because of problems the great-grandparents had with their priest and how he conducted himself around young people. There wasn’t a second Catholic parish available to them, this priest was not removed, and so they went to the Protestant Chuch. This was in the Midwest in about 1906. So let us get off of how perfect the ways were in the old days. I have another friend, converted because she married a Catholic, whose father left the Church because of physical abuse by the nuns at his gradeschool. There have always been problems.

The “traditional” way was to give Father carte blanche unless he was caught red-handed…and then, do you think he was booted out? Nope. They just moved him somewhere else and hoped he’d make good on what they did not realize was an impossible vow to resist the temptation in the future. They’d never let a thief go back to being a bank teller, but they expected a man who lacked self-control around children to be left alone with them, unsupervised, and to never sin again. They meant well, but the old days were not the good old days, when it comes to dealing with these problems.

We need to admit that if the Church had been so perfect as so many romantics want to believe, Vatican II would not have been convened. I suppose you can criticize the effort to meet the problem, but let’s not pretend that no problem existed.

May I make this observation, then? You don’t seem to show much reverence for the priesthood, except a theoretical priesthood that most of the priests you actually know apparently don’t belong to. You seem very critical of the heirarchy and contemptuous of most of the laity. You seem to imply that you and others devoted to Latin and the TLM exceed all these other Christians in holiness, that if they were just more like you, our Church would be just perfect.

Is this the fruit of regular attendance at the TLM? If all is as it seems, then frankly, the fruit doesn’t speak as well for the tree as you seem to think.

Or perhaps I am suggesting that rash conclusions might be rightly drawn from statements you don’t mean but make out of frustration or that do not mean what I think they seem to. Perhaps I take you entirely wrong. Let us hope so. Let us both take a more charitable view of the other, then, and get this conversation back on more charitable ground.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thats not what we were implying merely that the Church should require each parish to have one service in the Traditional Mass that has been used for thousands of years because it is a more reverent show of faith and we shouldn’t continue to force people to schism that enjoy the Traditional Mass. Many people have left the Church because of this and turned to the SSPX or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Forced into schism, because the valid liturgy that is available is not what they “enjoy”? Am I reading the post of a “traditional” Catholic? They are not forced into schism, except in their disobedient failure to admit that the Holy See has full authority to define what is and is not a valid liturgy. You may as well say, as some do, that those who have gone out and “ordained” women were “forced” to do it. (And no, it is not quite the same, as the TLM is valid, while ordination of women is not.)

With attitudes like that, it is no wonder that special permission was required for the TLM as long as it was. It wasn’t that the Holy See held the TLM in disdain, but that they rightly anticipated the disobedient attitudes that would follow introduction of the NO. Had obedient acceptance of the NO as a valid liturgy been anticipated, I have to think the TLM would have continued to have been available. It is hard to argue that the Fathers of that council didn’t have the attitudes of the faithful correctly pegged.