Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[holdencaulfield]

Look who’s winning.

 

[elt1956]

One thing I am not…is angry…nor am I watching over others with any kind of fervor, I am repeating the truths of our faith, without compromise, without ambiguity. And really, you could apply that quote from St. John of the Cross to thyself…

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. :banghead:

 

[I_Believe]

I find this frightening.

I attend wonderful NO Masses, although according to many of the traditionalists, I am attending a farce.

That’s NOT what my bishop says. HE is in charge, thank God, not YOU.

Please stop insulting the Mass that my bishop and my Church have approved! It is NOT lacking anything. ** If you like Latin and theatrical displays during worship, wonderful. I hope you all have the opportunity to serve at this kind of Mass. ** But PLEASE stop insisting that all Catholics must eventually "be “taken back.” That’s frightening.

Theatrical display huh ? Traditional Catholicism is frightening ?

Oh well, at least you didn’t throw in the “P” word this time lol.


If your Bishop told his priests to start praying the TLM and give homilies on Hell, would it frighten you ? Those kind of homilies scare me.

Didn’t you once say that you consider Chant “spooky” ?

 

[elt1956]

Theatrical display huh ? Traditional Catholicism is frightening ?

Oh well, at least you didn’t throw in the “P” word this time lol.


If your Bishop told his priests to start praying the TLM and give homilies on Hell, would it frighten you ? Those kind of homilies scare me.

Didn’t you once say that you consider Chant “spooky” ?

What I find frightening is the MANNER in which “some” Traditionalists post answers on the Traditional Forums. It isn’t so much, WHAT you say, although I do have some argument with that, but HOW you say it.

And as far as following our Bishops who are the Pope’s conduit to teaching the faithful, who else are we supposed to follow? I can’t call the Pope, can you?

Cat. Why are we still here? :bounce:

 

[I_Believe]

What I find frightening is the MANNER in which “some” Traditionalists post answers on the Traditional Forums. It isn’t so much, WHAT you say, although I do have some argument with that, but HOW you say it.

And as far as following our Bishops who are the Pope’s conduit to teaching the faithful, who else are we supposed to follow? I can’t call the Pope, can you?

Cat. Why are we still here? :bounce:

You tell me. Why do those who don’t understand traditionalists come here ? The first time I came here I thought traditionalists were nuts. Honestly, my first reaction was, " when did it become ok for the laity to question Rome ? "

But then I saw that the traditionalists were defending what the Church taught for centuries. They are not wrong. There are those in the Curia that share their views. And that fact, is something those jaded by the lies that once was heresy isn’t heresy anymore, deny.

Ever notice how those who come here to contradict and ridicule traditionalists never seem to be able to deny or attack Tradition ?
It is because they can’t. So they attack the traditionalists. They want an easy target. No wonder. They want easy Catholicism.

“Well, I’ll wear shorts to 5 PM Mass this Sat because it’s in the nineties. We’ll be going straight out the door to the Summer Picnic, so it only makes sense.”

Yea buddy

 

[pnewton]

The last two sentences I wrote are from the Catechism.

Then think for just a minute what you did. You say that I was not understanding doctrine. Then you quote two lines of the catechism, neither of which had to do with anything I said. Why? The Mass is done in memory of Jesus. The TLM is said in memory of Jesus. If this is difficult to understand, then there was a need to change something. For all those who understand English, there is nothing in the above statements that imply the memorial nature is exclusive or even primary.

Now, for those able to stay on topic, I do see some value in having the TLM offered in every parish at least on occasion. For those who focus too much on the relationship of the community and our own role, it is good to be reminded of the sacrificial aspect of the Mass. While this exists in the ordinary form of the Mass, the change would bring out a different emphasis and allow a new depth of appreciation.

 

[Cat]

Theatrical display huh ? Traditional Catholicism is frightening ?

Oh well, at least you didn’t throw in the “P” word this time lol.


If your Bishop told his priests to start praying the TLM and give homilies on Hell, would it frighten you ? Those kind of homilies scare me.

Didn’t you once say that you consider Chant “spooky” ?

I DID NOT SAY that I find Traditional Catholicism frightening!!!

I said that I find the statement “Traditionalists will take back our Church frightening.”

That is a war-like statement. Aggressive. I have no assurance from reading this statement that violence is not an option. Don’t harumph. You know that other organizations have done violent acts in churches in the name of their religion.

Yes, theatrical. From what I have read here, the TLM is actually choreographed… There are lines to learn from a script. There is costuming that everyone, including the people, must wear. The music must be rehearsed. etc. This is theater.

I do not mean that in a negative way. My family is theatrical. Theater is a good thing, not bad.

Forgive me, I don’t know what you are referring to. What is the “P” word?

IF my BISHOP told the priests to start offering TLM, that would not frighten me. My BISHOP has the authority from Christ to make these requirements. I would submit to what my BISHOP tells me to do, confident that he speaks for Christ.

So far, my BISHOP has established TLM in several cities in our diocese. Actually, these TLMs have been around for several decades in our diocese. Our bishop never has discouraged TLM.

My BISHOP has also maintained reverent, abuse-free NO Masses.

I am very blessed. I feel for those of you who aren’t so fortunate, and I encourage you to do anything that you must do to MOVE away from the cities and towns where you are so unhappy and have no recourse to a reverent NO or TLM.

If you have certain issues, especially family issues, that keep you imprisoned in your city, then I urge you to find a way to stop complaining and seeing abuses everywhere you look. The Lord has placed you where you are because He knows that this is the BEST PLACE for you to become holy, like Him. Don’t fight Him. Corrie ten Boom had a wonderful life philosophy–“Nestle, don’t wrestle.”

Certainly prevail upon your Bishop to correct the abuses, and certainly ask him to establish TLMs in convenient locations. You have the right to do this. But if it doesn’t happen, what good will your complaining do? To develop bitterness of spirit is poisoning your very soul. THAT is frightening. Try to develop, as St. Paul did, contentment in all circumstances. Try to learn to live, as St. Maxilmillian Kolbe did, in the worst of evil circumstances. Surely your Mass, even with its abuses, is not as bad as Auchwitz with its daily roll calls, tortures, and executions.

Homilies on hell do not frighten me, although they give me cause to examine my conscience and repent of my sins. Our priests give homilies on hell and sin all the time. Like I said, I am blessed with a good diocese and godly priests. Along with others in this thread, I am saddened and distressed that certain posters see fit to label these wonderful priests as unfit. I wish you could live here instead of whatever hell on earth you live in. I can’t imagine being so miserable and suffering so much in my Catholicism. It must be awful for you. (And I’m NOT being sarcastic! I don’t believe in sarcasm between Christians.)

 

[holdencaulfield]

Winning by 73

 

[pnewton]

The Lord has placed you where you are because He knows that this is the BEST PLACE for you to become holy, like Him. Don’t fight Him. Corrie ten Boom had a wonderful life philosophy–“Nestle, don’t wrestle.”

Certainly prevail upon your Bishop to correct the abuses, and certainly ask him to establish TLMs in convenient locations. You have the right to do this. But if it doesn’t happen, what good will your complaining do? To develop bitterness of spirit is poisoning your very soul. THAT is frightening. Try to develop, as St. Paul did, contentment in all circumstances.

I think this is where many err. The original title I find indicative of an error in thinking. “Would you be happy if…” What follows should not be relevant, or else we place our spiritual state into the hands of fate and circumstances. Jesus told us the source of true happiness, and it is the TLM or any other Mass. It is meekness, poverty of spirit, hunger for rightousness, etc.

I was thinking of how 1 Corinthinians 13 applies to our situation. Most people know it as the Love Chapter, but many do not know it was used to address specifically divisions in the Church. There were those that thought there talents and place in the Church were superior than their fellow Christians. They boasted among themselves so much, you must wonder how they lived without internet forums like this. The message to them was that without charity, all their talents were worthless. Today Paul could easily have included a section like, “Though I speak fluent Latin and prmote the TLM, exercise piety and reverence like the angels above…” Without charity, all religious devotion is worth zero.

I think we need to get the cart back behind the horse.

 

[Cat]

I think this is where many err. The original title I find indicative of an error in thinking. “Would you be happy if…” What follows should not be relevant, or else we place our spiritual state into the hands of fate and circumstances. Jesus told us the source of true happiness, and it is the TLM or any other Mass. It is meekness, poverty of spirit, hunger for rightousness, etc.

I was thinking of how 1 Corinthinians 13 applies to our situation. Most people know it as the Love Chapter, but many do not know it was used to address specifically divisions in the Church. There were those that thought there talents and place in the Church were superior than their fellow Christians. They boasted among themselves so much, you must wonder how they lived without internet forums like this. The message to them was that without charity, all their talents were worthless. Today Paul could easily have included a section like, “Though I speak fluent Latin and prmote the TLM, exercise piety and reverence like the angels above…” Without charity, all religious devotion is worth zero.

I think we need to get the cart back behind the horse.

This is such a balanced post. Thank you so much.

My proposal would be that TLMs should be offered throughout each diocese, perhaps every 25-30 miles, or perhaps for every 100,000 people.

I think it’s not practical to have a TLM required at every parish. Our parish has six Sunday Masses and two Saturday Vigil Masses. These Masses are pretty much packed. I think there is some kind of “rule” about priests offering more than three Masses in a day (perhaps there are dispensations to allow for this when necessary). But I think it would be tough on the priests and the organist to offer yet another Mass, and one that requires a lot of rehearsal (a TLM), especially when the TLM is offered only two miles away from our church (actually two TLMs on Sunday). People in our city who want TLM can become part of that community (it’s not technically a “parish,” since it is offered at an oratory).

I also think that in the rural areas, it’s not practical to see each parish offer a TLM. Many times, priests are serving at multiple rural parishes, and they drive from church to church on Sunday just to offer one Mass at each. Exhausting.

But usually there are fairly large towns or even small cities about every 30 miles or so (except in the extremely rural areas of the U.S.). I think it’s reasonable that there should be at least one weekly TLM somewhere in these cities. A 30-mile drive is no picnic, especially with small children or for the elderly. And in this day of conserving gas, many may even say it’s a sin. (I don’t agree.)

But I know that many people are willing to drive long distances to worship freely. (I know a lot of Protestants who drive further than 30 miles to worship at certain churches.)

Does this sound like a reasonable and workable idea?

Hopefully as more priests with the proper training are ordained, we will actually see something like this happen in the U.S.

I honestly don’t think you will ever see the end of the vernacular Mass. The Church has matured, and this is part of that maturity–offering Holy Mass in the language that people understand without having to refer to a missal.

I do think you will see less abuses and more careful attention to following the rubrics. I also think you will see even more “music of the culture.” JMO, of course.

But I trust that our Holy Father and Magisterium will be in control, and that, as Jesus promised, nothing will prevail aganist the Catholic Church. He will present His Bride spotless before the throne.

 

[ProVobis]

I honestly don’t think you will ever see the end of the vernacular Mass. The Church has matured, and this is part of that maturity–offering Holy Mass in the language that people understand without having to refer to a missal.

I don’t know about that. Even when I attend the vernacular Mass, I refer to a missal or missalette. Some of those readers are really hard to follow. Personally I think we are lucky to live in an age where we have books and missals and online sources to help us understand the Mass. Can you imagine what it was like before the printing press?

 

[laudamus_te]

“The manly men disappeared, and the seminaries became hotbeds of homosexuality, leading to the priest abuse scandals.”

That statement libels many good and holy men, and saying so is not a false accusation. To say that blaming these scandals on today’s priests is a libel against those priests, since the vast majority of them are innocent, is not a false characterization. To say that such libel at the very least seems betray a lack of reverence for the priesthood itself is also not a false statement. To say that it does a disservice to seminarians to encourage them to look down upon their predecessors en masse is no false characterization. I am sorry you hate so much to hear that.

My statement libels no one, and I have no idea how you come up with that. I have a great reverence for the priesthood, and how my statement “betrays” that I do not, also is beyond me.

The priest abuse scandals did not come from the NO, nor from Vatican II. To say otherwise is the false accusation. Nor is it a false accusation to say that instances of pedophilia were, in the past, either disbelieved or swept under the rug, nor is it a false accusation to say that most of the accusations, in Oregon at least, are very old, 30 years old and older. This is a matter of public record.

I never said the priest abuse scandals were a result of the NO, or VII. You are falsely accusing me. But, if you do not believe that most of the seminaries, after VII, became scenes of disgustingly anti-Catholic thoughts and acts, then you have your head in the sand. Did good priests come from the seminaries since VII? Yes, absolutely. But there was an agenda in place, favoring liberal-thinking applicants. This has been called the “lavender mafia.” Why do you think the number of seminarians dropped so dramatically? Could it be because many of the good, manly men (those who weren’t rejected outright) did not want to be in that environment? Listen to the good priest, Fr. Michael Relyea, and his personal experience with the seminary. He talks about it in his excellent Lenten Mission of 2007.

Do you ask me to hear so many priests so wrongly painted with the same brush and not respond in no uncertain terms that it is unacceptable? I hope not! Do you want me to let people who are bad-mouthing the NO go on thinking that it brings no one to wonder what is going through the minds of people who prefer the TLM? Again, I hope not! Do you want the TLM widely desired, so as to become widely available, or not?

And do you ask me to let people bad-mouth the TLM, referring to it as “theater?” I will not. The TLM is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It nourished the souls of saints and popes for hundreds of years. I will not stand by and hear it belittled in such a way.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I never said the priest abuse scandals were a result of the NO, or VII. You are falsely accusing me. But, if you do not believe that most of the seminaries, after VII, became scenes of disgustingly anti-Catholic thoughts and acts, then you have your head in the sand. Did good priests come from the seminaries since VII? Yes, absolutely. But there was an agenda in place, favoring liberal-thinking applicants. This has been called the “lavender mafia.” Why do you think the number of seminarians dropped so dramatically? Could it be because many of the good, manly men (those who weren’t rejected outright) did not want to be in that environment? Listen to the good priest, Fr. Michael Relyea, and his personal experience with the seminary. He talks about it in his excellent Lenten Mission of 2007.

We should thank organizations like the FSSP for keeping Catholicism alive and not allowing these liberal “protestant” Catholics to destroy the faith.

And do you ask me to let people bad-mouth the TLM, referring to it as “theater?” I will not. The TLM is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It nourished the souls of saints and popes for hundreds of years. I will not stand by and hear it belittled in such a way.

Anyone who bad mouths the TLM cannot call themselves Catholic. I don’t care if you prefer the NO, don’t argue with the TLM.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I am the Original Poster and I would like to clarify something. The thought behind this poll was not to see who would want only TLM services but for every parish to be required to have at least one TLM service. I don’t know why you would complain. The Church needs to do something like this soon or lest it be destroyed.

 

[pnewton]

Anyone who bad mouths the TLM cannot call themselves Catholic. I don’t care if you prefer the NO, don’t argue with the TLM.

Do you believe the same is true of those who speak poorly of the ordinary form of the Mass? The reason I ask is because that has happened quite a bit. I have not seen anyone “bad mouth” the TLM. The closest I can find is the statement, "If you like Latin and theatrical displays during worship, wonderful. " This is not directed at the TLM, but I the reason one may be drawn to the TLM. Also, “theatrical” is not the same as “theatre” and it may not be an insult. Would it be insulting to say one was drawn to the ornate worship of the TLM? How about the beauty?

 

[agoukass]

I think that it would take a great deal of effort to get all priests trained to say the Latin Mass. I have heard of efforts to have bi-ritual courses given here and there, but I don’t think that it could become the norm for every single seminary in the United States because there probably aren’t that many seminaries that would be able or willing to train their priests in both the NO and the Latin Mass.

I also think that the Latin Mass is just as liable to be abused as the NO is. I’ve heard stories from priests and other laypeople about Masses that were said in a hurry without any devotion on the part of the celebrant. I’ve also been to a feel myself.

In my own case, the parish priest went fast because he wanted to fit his half-hour sermon. Althiough he himself will preach until he is blue in the face that we should be devoted, reverent, and attentive during Mass, his own saying of the TLM shows otherwise.

 

[pnewton]

I am the Original Poster and I would like to clarify something. The thought behind this poll was not to see who would want only TLM services but for every parish to be required to have at least one TLM service. I don’t know why you would complain. The Church needs to do something like this soon or lest it be destroyed.

It is the “had to have” I have an issue with. Mandating something without regard to local practical concerns, parish size, priest availability would be a silly, arbitrary rule.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I also think that the Latin Mass is just as liable to be abused as the NO is. I’ve heard stories from priests and other laypeople about Masses that were said in a hurry without any devotion on the part of the celebrant. I’ve also been to a feel myself.

However the TLM cannot be abused because one must follow the Missal. If a priest does not you simply notify your Archbishop, so that they will pay attention to what matters.

 

[holdencaulfield]

It is the “had to have” I have an issue with. Mandating something without regard to local practical concerns, parish size, priest availability would be a silly, arbitrary rule.

But it would be great if people started to move in that direction. Or better yet, get rid of the NO and translate the TLM into English and then people could not say well “I don’t understand Latin”. I don’t see why we don’t have all TLM. One in Latin and the rest in English (or the other vernacular language) and there you go.

 

[pnewton]

But it would be great if people started to move in that direction. Or better yet, get rid of the NO and translate the TLM into English and then people could not say well “I don’t understand Latin”. I don’t see why we don’t have all TLM. One in Latin and the rest in English (or the other vernacular language) and there you go.

I see. So you are of the opinion that the TLM is superior to the ordinary form of the Mass. I will go with whatever comes down from Rome. I do not have any attachment to either form.