Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[holdencaulfield]

I see. So you are of the opinion that the TLM is superior to the ordinary form of the Mass. I will go with whatever comes down from Rome. I do not have any attachment to either form.

I agree I will do whatever Rome says as well. But I don’t see why anyone would have an attachment to the NO other than the fact that it is in English.

 

[laudamus_te]

I find this frightening.

I attend wonderful NO Masses, although according to many of the traditionalists, I am attending a farce.

That’s NOT what my bishop says. HE is in charge, thank God, not YOU.

Please stop insulting the Mass that my bishop and my Church have approved! It is NOT lacking anything. If you like Latin and theatrical displays during worship, wonderful. I hope you all have the opportunity to serve at this kind of Mass. But PLEASE stop insisting that all Catholics must eventually "be “taken back.” That’s frightening.

Your attitude towards the TLM, the Mass of Ages, is what’s frightening. How about this for “theatrical?”
cathcon.blogspot.com/2008/04/liturgy-of-less-than-saintly-roger.html

I could only make it through about 3 minutes of that video before getting sick to my stomach. Is this the Catholic Church to you? Because it certainly is not to my mind. And if you don’t think something like this can come to your parish, think again.

As far as being “frightened” by my “war-like statement,” well good. Because this is war. We are the Church Militant, and we need to fight for our Faith. I will fight until my dying breath against atrocities such as my Archbishop, Roger Mahony, is constantly perpetrating and passing off as Catholic.

 

[elt1956]

Your attitude towards the TLM, the Mass of Ages, is what’s frightening. How about this for “theatrical?”
cathcon.blogspot.com/2008/04/liturgy-of-less-than-saintly-roger.html

I could only make it through about 3 minutes of that video before getting sick to my stomach. Is this the Catholic Church to you? Because it certainly is not to my mind. And if you don’t think something like this can come to your parish, think again.

As far as being “frightened” by my “war-like statement,” well good. Because this is war. We are the Church Militant, and we need to fight for our Faith. I will fight until my dying breath against atrocities such as my Archbishop, Roger Mahony, is constantly perpetrating and passing off as Catholic.

Oh ye of little faith laudamus te… Keep hoping, maybe one day you will understand.

 

[Cat]

Your attitude towards the TLM, the Mass of Ages, is what’s frightening. How about this for “theatrical?”
cathcon.blogspot.com/2008/04/liturgy-of-less-than-saintly-roger.html

I could only make it through about 3 minutes of that video before getting sick to my stomach. Is this the Catholic Church to you? Because it certainly is not to my mind. And if you don’t think something like this can come to your parish, think again.

As far as being “frightened” by my “war-like statement,” well good. Because this is war. We are the Church Militant, and we need to fight for our Faith. I will fight until my dying breath against atrocities such as my Archbishop, Roger Mahony, is constantly perpetrating and passing off as Catholic.

No, this is not the Catholic Church to me.

My definition of “theatrical” seems to be confusing to some.

When I say “theater,” I am not referring to clowns or puppets or skits/plays or opera or dance. These are not present in all theater.

But all theater (except for improvisational theater) involves rehearsal, scripts, costuming, and blocking/choreography.

All of these elements are present in both the NO Mass and the TLM, but more so in the TLM, at least, that is the impression that I have received on this Board. (I’ve never been to a TLM.)

The problem that some of you seem to be having is that you think “theater” is a “bad” thing. It isn’t. It’s merely a descriptive term.

I realize that the Holy Mass is not a “production,” it is a sacrifice.

But for those who are involved in presenting the Mass, it has the elements of a “production.” I know, because I play the piano at Mass.

We don’t just arrive at the church and do the Mass. We work on it, just like the people involved with a production work.

There is a “script” that we must follow, and some of the participants have “lines.” If by some chance, I have to announce the hymns, I read from a script that the liturgical director gives me; I don’t just stand up there and improvise with the congregation. There are “rehearsals” (although for the NO Mass, they are usually last-minute run-throughs with the cantor). There are “costumes” that we all must wear (e.g., I don’t show up to play wearing jeans and a “Synchro Skating Rocks!” shirt). And there is choreography–not so much for me, but for the altar servers, the priest, the lector, the EMs, and the cantor.

That’s what I mean by theater. And from what I have read on this Forum, the TLM is an even bigger “production” for those involved. Again, I am NOT saying that the Mass is just a “production,” but only that it has a lot in common with a production. If you are involved with actually presenting the Mass, you will understand what I mean.

 

[piouswoman]

I honestly don’t think you will ever see the end of the vernacular Mass. The Church has matured, and this is part of that maturity–offering Holy Mass in the language that people understand without having to refer to a missal.

The church has matured? That is very funny in light of this photo:

Tuesday, November 06, 2007
A clown speaks out
kreuz.net/article/article.4726.2.jpg

And here:

cathcon.blogspot.com/search?q=clown+masses

Scroll all the way down to see how the church has “matured”. Honestly, that is just too funny for words that anyone can make a statement like that. What more does one need to see before realizing the tragic situation in the church today?

 

[holdencaulfield]

I very much dislike the liberals who are trying to destroy the Church. Go somewhere else.

 

[piouswoman]

But it would be great if people started to move in that direction. Or better yet, get rid of the NO and translate the TLM into English and then people could not say well “I don’t understand Latin”. I don’t see why we don’t have all TLM. One in Latin and the rest in English (or the other vernacular language) and there you go.

You cannot have it in the English or any vernacular because those languages are always changing. Words can take on different meanings in different generations, or just over time. Not only that, but it has been proven that the vernacular has been interpreted any way that a priest may decide, opening it up for abuse after abuse, exactly what has happened. Exactly why the church is in the mess it is. There is a reason why the church had always had Latin as its liturgical language. To preserve forever unchanged, the perfect words prayed by the priest in the Holy Mass, anywhere, anytime, in any country on the face of the earth.

 

[holdencaulfield]

You cannot have it in the English or any vernacular because those languages are always changing. Words can take on different meanings in different generations, or just over time. Not only that, but it has been proven that the vernacular has been interpreted any way that a priest may decide, opening it up for abuse after abuse, exactly what has happened. Exactly why the church is in the mess it is. There is a reason why the church had always had Latin as its liturgical language. To preserve forever unchanged, the perfect words prayed by the priest in the Holy Mass, anywhere, anytime, in any country on the face of the earth.

Oh yes good point.

 

[preV2tradcath]

You cannot have it in the English or any vernacular because those languages are always changing. Words can take on different meanings in different generations, or just over time. Not only that, but it has been proven that the vernacular has been interpreted any way that a priest may decide, opening it up for abuse after abuse, exactly what has happened. Exactly why the church is in the mess it is. There is a reason why the church had always had Latin as its liturgical language. To preserve forever unchanged, the perfect words prayed by the priest in the Holy Mass, anywhere, anytime, in any country on the face of the earth.

Thank you, piouswoman. That is another point I like to make when discussing Latin and the Mass.

 

[piouswoman]

Thank you, piouswoman. That is another point I like to make when discussing Latin and the Mass.

You’re welcome.

 

[elt1956]

This is such a balanced post. Thank you so much.

My proposal would be that TLMs should be offered throughout each diocese, perhaps every 25-30 miles, or perhaps for every 100,000 people.

I think it’s not practical to have a TLM required at every parish. Our parish has six Sunday Masses and two Saturday Vigil Masses. These Masses are pretty much packed. I think there is some kind of “rule” about priests offering more than three Masses in a day (perhaps there are dispensations to allow for this when necessary). But I think it would be tough on the priests and the organist to offer yet another Mass, and one that requires a lot of rehearsal (a TLM), especially when the TLM is offered only two miles away from our church (actually two TLMs on Sunday). People in our city who want TLM can become part of that community (it’s not technically a “parish,” since it is offered at an oratory).

I also think that in the rural areas, it’s not practical to see each parish offer a TLM. Many times, priests are serving at multiple rural parishes, and they drive from church to church on Sunday just to offer one Mass at each. Exhausting.

But usually there are fairly large towns or even small cities about every 30 miles or so (except in the extremely rural areas of the U.S.). I think it’s reasonable that there should be at least one weekly TLM somewhere in these cities. A 30-mile drive is no picnic, especially with small children or for the elderly. And in this day of conserving gas, many may even say it’s a sin. (I don’t agree.)

But I know that many people are willing to drive long distances to worship freely. (I know a lot of Protestants who drive further than 30 miles to worship at certain churches.)

Does this sound like a reasonable and workable idea?

Hopefully as more priests with the proper training are ordained, we will actually see something like this happen in the U.S.

I honestly don’t think you will ever see the end of the vernacular Mass. The Church has matured, and this is part of that maturity–offering Holy Mass in the language that people understand without having to refer to a missal.

I do think you will see less abuses and more careful attention to following the rubrics. I also think you will see even more “music of the culture.” JMO, of course.

But I trust that our Holy Father and Magisterium will be in control, and that, as Jesus promised, nothing will prevail aganist the Catholic Church. He will present His Bride spotless before the throne.

Workable to some, but absolutely anathama to those who think every Pope during and after Vatican II is a heretic in matters of faith and doctrine. Wonder which of those Popes is now in the pit?:whacky:

 

[pnewton]

As far as being “frightened” by my “war-like statement,” well good. Because this is war. We are the Church Militant, and we need to fight for our Faith…

He is not the enemy of the Church Militant.

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. - Ephesians 6:12

The battleground of the Church Militant is pray and it is unthinkable to turn on those down and start shooting our wounded. Humility is the weapon that will prove more effective than logic or Latin.

 

[piouswoman]

He is not the enemy of the Church Militant.

The battleground of the Church Militant is pray and it is unthinkable to turn on those down and start shooting our wounded. Humility is the weapon that will prove more effective than logic or Latin.

When Catholics are fighting for the true doctrines of our faith, we are not only fighting a just war, but we are fighting for Our Lord, Jesus Christ. We are here on earth, engaged in constant warfare against our enemies. Here is an excellent description of the meaning of the Church Militant:
seattlecatholic.com/article_20011123_True_Soldiers_in_the_Church_Militant.html

 

[piouswoman]

I particularly like this:

Catholic soldiers cannot remain silent in the face of evil and they cannot run from it in hope for better days. We must fight for the Faith at all times, especially when we are facing persecution. Our human enemies need to know that we hold and defend the Truth, even if they hate us for it. The history of Christendom is filled with saints and martyrs who chose torture and death rather than denying Christ or His Church. They could have saved their lives by going along with the popular errors of the day — be it paganism, Freemasonry, Communism or Islam, but they refused and were eternally rewarded.

 

[ProVobis]

Do you believe the same is true of those who speak poorly of the ordinary form of the Mass? The reason I ask is because that has happened quite a bit.

Of course you have criticism of the Ordinary Form. And the Pope as Cardinal Ratzinger was also one of its critics. (Spirit of the Liturgy, supporter of Monsignor Gamber, etc.) Yet he fully supports it. Or at least in its reverent form.

 

[ProVobis]

I also think that the Latin Mass is just as liable to be abused as the NO is. I’ve heard stories from priests and other laypeople about Masses that were said in a hurry without any devotion on the part of the celebrant. I’ve also been to a feel myself.

In my own case, the parish priest went fast because he wanted to fit his half-hour sermon. Althiough he himself will preach until he is blue in the face that we should be devoted, reverent, and attentive during Mass, his own saying of the TLM shows otherwise.

I fail to see how a “fast” Mass fails to show devotion, reverence, or attentiveness. As long as the rubrics are followed, the Mass is valid, either the Old Mass or the New. Look at it this way, you have fewer people falling asleep if there is some activity or prayer going on all the time.

 

[I_Believe]

I see. So you are of the opinion that the TLM is superior to the ordinary form of the Mass. I will go with whatever comes down from Rome. I do not have any attachment to either form.

** I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy ** Cardinal Ratzinger (Milestones, page 148).

Roman enough for you ?

 

[I_Believe]

No, this is not the Catholic Church to me.

My definition of “theatrical” seems to be confusing to some.

I’m not confused at all. Your terms reveal how you see the TLM. You see it as a show. You’ve never attended one, but you’ve got it all figured out based on what you’ve read on this forum huh ?

All you are focusing on is what you see as bells and whistles. Rubrics are choreographed theatrics by clergy in costumes ?
Rehearsed music ? Showbiz terms ?

So we like it because it’s fancy huh ?

Not confusing at all. We hear you loud and clear

 

[pnewton]

Roman enough for you ?

I have no idea what point you are making. I was referring to the TLM, you remember the topic here.

Yet you give a prime example of how to twist a quote out of context. The entire quote had zero to do with the form of Mass, but referred to the ordinary form.
latin-mass-society.org/ratz.htm

a liturgical reconciliation that again recognises the unity of the history of the liturgy and that understands Vatican II, not as a breach, but as a stage of development: these things are urgently needed for the life of the Church. I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy…This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council.

And, just like I said, I would adapt to any change.

 

[drafdog]

I was just investigating for unrelated reasons a community some distance from here. I discovered that there are in one postal code area no less than six Catholic parishes. Most of these have only one priest. Are you seriously suggesting that a Mass for a very small portion of the community be mandated in each of the six churches? Wouldn’t it make more sense from a resource management viewpoint to have one Mass serve that postal area?
I think it would be matter for the judgment of the bishop of the diocese… whose cathedral is one of the six churches.

Matthew