Who Wrote the Four Gospels?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BPW75
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It looks like we have a lot of very good comments in this thread but one thing conspicuously absent is a discussion of Q, the theorized precedent to the first three Gospels.

I’m not sure if there is an official CC position on Q theory but the idea muddies the concept of authorship.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_gospel

There is another interesting literary theory around the authorship of the OT, see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Hypothesis
 
I’ve read a lot of scripture scholars and never heard of this person. I’ve read a lot of Biblical commentaries and never heard of him. Has he contributed to any respectable, widely known biblical commentaries? Did he write any books?
I doubt he’s anywhere near as influential in the scholarly community as you claim. And so, any conclusions you say he has carry less weight.
Who is he?
Martin Hengel is widely known as the most respected biblical scholar of the last half century. He passed away a week or so ago. And as for being “influential” I have actually read–can’t recall in which book, but it will come to me–another scholar actually going through huge amounts of apologies for daring to question a single utterance he made in his seminal work, “Judaism and Hellenism”. Hengel was a German and every single scrap he ever wrote, or thereabouts, has been translated and published. And it’s not every book of biblical scholarship that gets published; actually, it’s a rarity. But Hengel is so famous that even his essays are published as separate books. Go on Amazon and see.

The book I mentioned, “Judaism and Hellenism” is the most cited book in biblical scholarship on the subject of Second Temple Judaism. It was Hengel who brought
together textual evidence, archaeological evidence, and his vast learning of Second Temple literature to squash an entire generation of liberal scholar s arguments about the Jews and their beliefs at the time.

Ever heard of Bultmann? Ever heard of the ‘Tubingen school’ of German scholars? Very famous liberal theorists. Well, Martin Hengel headed the Tubingen school after Bultmann. You will notice that Bultmann’s theories are pretty much cast aside? Blame that on the brilliant scholarship and fine mind of Martin Hengel.

If you haven’t read him, for pity’s sake let your fingers carry you to Amazon and get some of his books.

May God shower you with blessings, Annem
 
It looks like we have a lot of very good comments in this thread but one thing conspicuously absent is a discussion of Q, the theorized precedent to the first three Gospels.

I’m not sure if there is an official CC position on Q theory but the idea muddies the concept of authorship.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_gospel

There is another interesting literary theory around the authorship of the OT, see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Hypothesis
The problem with the theory of “Q” is that there is no proof of Q. I don’t recall it being referenced anywhere… and it surely seems that it would have been if it existed.

Furthermore, in my view, Q seems to ignore that the Holy Spirit guided the authors of the Synoptics. In other words, the guidance of the Holy Spirit is the real “Q” source, but modern scholars trying to rationalize that it was by human means that Luke and Mark (and Matthew) seem so similar that they had to come from a common written source - Q.
 
Martin Hengel is widely known as the most respected biblical scholar of the last half century. He passed away a week or so ago. And as for being “influential” I have actually read–can’t recall in which book, but it will come to me–another scholar actually going through huge amounts of apologies for daring to question a single utterance he made in his seminal work, “Judaism and Hellenism”. Hengel was a German and every single scrap he ever wrote, or thereabouts, has been translated and published. And it’s not every book of biblical scholarship that gets published; actually, it’s a rarity. But Hengel is so famous that even his essays are published as separate books. Go on Amazon and see.

The book I mentioned, “Judaism and Hellenism” is the most cited book in biblical scholarship on the subject of Second Temple Judaism. It was Hengel who brought
together textual evidence, archaeological evidence, and his vast learning of Second Temple literature to squash an entire generation of liberal scholar s arguments about the Jews and their beliefs at the time.

Ever heard of Bultmann? Ever heard of the ‘Tubingen school’ of German scholars? Very famous liberal theorists. Well, Martin Hengel headed the Tubingen school after Bultmann. You will notice that Bultmann’s theories are pretty much cast aside? Blame that on the brilliant scholarship and fine mind of Martin Hengel.

If you haven’t read him, for pity’s sake let your fingers carry you to Amazon and get some of his books.

May God shower you with blessings, Annem
Yes, I’ve heard of Bultmann and the Tubingen school, just not Hengel. Thanks.
 
It looks like we have a lot of very good comments in this thread but one thing conspicuously absent is a discussion of Q, the theorized precedent to the first three Gospels.

I’m not sure if there is an official CC position on Q theory but the idea muddies the concept of authorship.
It sure does! Q becomes “necessary” only if one subscribes to the theory (and that’s all it is, a theory which first appeared sometime in the 19th century) that Mark’s gospel was written first and then used as a source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke. However, occasions where Luke and Matthew agree with each other against Mark suggest that Luke and Matthew were not independent of each other, and thus argue against the two-source hypothesis.

For 2000 years the Church has taught that two Apostles, who had lived with Christ wrote gospels and two men, who knew some of the Apostles, wrote another two… and that all four should be treated as reliable historical documents.

In 1965, the Second Vatican Council issued Dei Verbum as a Dogmatic Constitution. In this the Church restated her teaching, as may be seen from reading an extract from Section 7:
“This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by ordinances, handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing”.
The Pontifical Biblical Commission was a teaching organ of the Church – with binding authority – from 1902 to 1971, during which time it consistently and firmly opposed the Markan priority theory (i.e. no Q). In 1971 the PBC became merely a consultative body. There are those who will try to put forth the claim that the Church now officially accepts Q (and Markan priority), but that claim is as false today as it was prior to 1971.

In May 1996 Cardinal Ratzinger, at a meeting with CELAM in Mexico, observed that ‘Relativism has thus become in fact the fundamental problem for faith in our time. He identified the underlying source of this faith–dissolving relativism as a combination of Kantian Philosophy and powerful trends in modern biblical exegesis. ((LT Jan 1997)). And the 1998 Encyclical: Faith and Reason, section 55, warned Scripture scholars: ‘Moreover, one should not underestimate the danger inherent in seeking to derive the truth of Sacred Scripture from the use of one method alone, ignoring the need for a more comprehensive exegesis which enables the exegete, together with the whole Church, to arrive at the full sense of the texts. Those who devote themselves to the study of Sacred Scripture should always remember that the various hermeneutical [interpretive] approaches have their own philosophical underpinnings, which need to be carefully evaluated before they are applied to the sacred texts. In the same section we read a warning against fideism: ((JPFR)).
The Catholic Encyclopaedia explains that: `Fideism owes its origin to distrust in human reason and follows from the logical sequence of such an attitude as scepticism. It is often based on the separation of reason and belief, between science and religion. Fideism is rejected by the Catholic Church, which upholds both reason and belief. ((CE fideism)).

Having attended high school post-1971, I was taught Markan priority… but here’s what should have been taught.
 
The problem with the theory of “Q” is that there is no proof of Q. I don’t recall it being referenced anywhere… and it surely seems that it would have been if it existed.
I don’t think that is a safe deduction. It’s pretty well accepted that the Gospels began as oral stories. Between the ressurection of Jesus and the first witten Gospel, we can imagine that the apostles were relating their stories both to convert and to teach converts. It seems entirely plausible that someone along the way would begin writing down bits and pieces in abreviated form and that these bits might have been circulated and have served as a reference when the Gospel authors first sat down to compose a formal document. Then, as the Gospels began to circulate Q would have fallen into disuse and thus lost.

The fact that there is no written record of how the Gospels were composed suggests that there was little interest at that time in creating a history of Christianity. The entire focus was on telling the Gospels.
Furthermore, in my view, Q seems to ignore that the Holy Spirit guided the authors of the Synoptics. In other words, the guidance of the Holy Spirit is the real “Q” source, but modern scholars trying to rationalize that it was by human means that Luke and Mark (and Matthew) seem so similar that they had to come from a common written source - Q.
I think you paint too stark a contrast between the two. When I was little I always imagined that the Holy Spirit was dictating to the Gospel writers like Gabrial (supposedly) dictated the Koran to Mohamed. But that is not the more sophisticated Catholic view which entertains the unqiue contribution of the authors to the process.
 
The fact that there is no written record of how the Gospels were composed suggests that there was little interest at that time in creating a history of Christianity. The entire focus was on telling the Gospels.” I would wonder if in fact the focus wasn’t entirely, in the minds of some, exactly that: the creaton of a history which served in the end to obscure the actual teaching. I would wonder if the focus on the Gosples wasn’t the creation of an appearance that they weren’t lifted in great part from nearly identical “pagan” documents. Why did the early christains do somuch library burning undet the instigation of some of its leaders? Have you any imagination of what treasures might thus have been lost, as various religious sects, christian or not, burned precious books? What was the focus there? Was it holiness, salvation, and good, or ideological warefare?
 
I think you paint too stark a contrast between the two. When I was little I always imagined that the Holy Spirit was dictating to the Gospel writers like Gabrial (supposedly) dictated the Koran to Mohamed. But that is not the more sophisticated Catholic view which entertains the unqiue contribution of the authors to the process.
No, I do understand that the Holy Spirit didn’t write it for them, or control the authors while they were writing. But, whether they knew it or not, the Holy Spirit was guiding them. Between the Holy Spirit, and hearing the sermons of the Apostles some 1/2 a million times, I don’t think there was a need for a Q document.
 
In 1965, the Second Vatican Council issued Dei Verbum as a Dogmatic Constitution. In this the Church restated her teaching, as may be seen from reading an extract from Section 7:
“This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by ordinances, handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing”.

Having attended high school post-1971, I was taught Markan priority… but here’s what should have been taught.

Very interesting… also thanks for the link. Looks like good reading.​
 
No, I do understand that the Holy Spirit didn’t write it for them, or control the authors while they were writing. But, whether they knew it or not, the Holy Spirit was guiding them. Between the Holy Spirit, and hearing the sermons of the Apostles some 1/2 a million times, I don’t think there was a need for a Q document.
Right. So what Q theory merely represents is a more collective authorship. Instead of one guy sitting down with pen in hand to write a Gospel from memory, you have a community of Chrisitans starting with the apostles telling and retelling stories and eventually being set to paper in perhaps two steps.

I don’t see how Q theory takes away from the role of the Holy Spirit.

The existence of Q is entirely inferred by the stylistic redundencies between certain Gospels.
 
Huh?

The link you provided sent me to another forum discussion here, not to anything from the Magisterium.

Can you provide any evidence from the Magisterium to support your claim?

Thanks.
The link was to a very heated thread which was shut down by the moderators.

There is no statement from the Magisterium regarding authorship, to the best of my knowledge.
 
It never claimed it infallible until Trent. It was accepted as part of the Catholic teaching, but there were still some objections raised from time to time - though few and far between when you consider the time between the Councils of Hippo and Carthage (local) and Trent (ecumenical).

In other words, after Hippo and Carthage, it was still all right to question the Canon.
Actually, the first Ecumenical Council to promulgate a list of Canonical books was the Council of Florence, etc., more than 100 years prior to Trent.
 
The fact that there is no written record of how the Gospels were composed suggests that there was little interest at that time in creating a history of Christianity. The entire focus was on telling the Gospels.” I would wonder if in fact the focus wasn’t entirely, in the minds of some, exactly that: the creaton of a history which served in the end to obscure the actual teaching. I would wonder if the focus on the Gosples wasn’t the creation of an appearance that they weren’t lifted in great part from nearly identical “pagan” documents. Why did the early christains do somuch library burning undet the instigation of some of its leaders? Have you any imagination of what treasures might thus have been lost, as various religious sects, christian or not, burned precious books? What was the focus there? Was it holiness, salvation, and good, or ideological warefare?
Detales,
is there a written record of how any other books were composed in antiquity? After all, what is there to write? Two Apostles and two of their aids wrote down the gospels. That’s not something that they needed a book for.

The Clementine theory quoted earlier makes the most sense to me. The whole concept of the Q theory is driven by the concept that Mark must have been the first gospel because it was shorter and in the least accomplished Greek. This theory is I think pretty much answered in the clementine theory…
 
It seems entirely plausible that someone along the way would begin writing down bits and pieces in abbreviated form and that these bits might have been circulated and have served as a reference when the Gospel authors first sat down to compose a formal document. … The fact that there is no written record of how the Gospels were composed suggests that there was little interest at that time in creating a history of Christianity. The entire focus was on telling the Gospels.
On the contrary, there’s plenty of historical evidence that two of the Gospels were written by Apostles and that the other two Gospels were written by “apostolic men” (as reiterated by Dei Verbum). See pages 8-16 of the referenced link.

Here’s just a sampling of the historical evidence:
Papias (c. 60-139)
Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
Irenaeus (c. 120-180)
Muratorian Fragment (c. 150)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)
Tertullian (c. 155-220)
Origen (c. 185-253)
Eusebius of Pamphilius (260-340)
St. Jerome (331 – 420)
St. Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430)
 
“Q” is a theory. Catholics are free to accept it or not. It may or may not have existed. It is just a theory. If it helps you, great, if not, forget about it.

Catholics are also free to accept a variety of theories regarding authorship of Scripture books (as long as we accept, of course, that one of the authors is God/Holy Spirit). Whether Moses wrote the Pentateuch, or not, either is ok. Whether Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew, or one of his followers did, is ok.

We have to believe that all Scripture is inspired, and true. And for the New Testament, that the authors were all Apostles or those who were taught by the Apostles.
 
Bubba Switzler
the Gospels began as oral stories.
Hi, I thought I might clarify. There has been an explosion of research into oral cultures, how knowledge is transmitted in oral cultures, and the reliability of such knowledge in the last twenty years, which pretty much tosses out all the old guesses done by Bultmann… A good summation of that research is found in the book “The Jesus Legend” by Eddy.
there was little interest at that time in creating a history of Christianity.
Actually, the gospels follow ancient standards for history telling. The emphasis is on eyewitness testimony, by far and away considered the most reliable in ancient times. A good book by a very fine scholar on this subject is “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”.

Richard Burridge, a very famous scholar, published a book called “What Are the Gospels” recently–well, in the 90’s. I think. The book proves, according to most, that the gospels fall in the 'bios" genre.

These are very interesting books. If you can’t get them out of the local library, don’t forget you can always try inter library loan.

May God truly shower you with graces, Annem
 
Detales

Hi Detales, why didn’t you respond to my earlier points? Or do you just agree with them?
I would wonder if the focus on the Gosples wasn’t the creation of an appearance that they weren’t lifted in great part from nearly identical “pagan” documents.
Sorry, but this is a long discarded theory. From about 1850-1930 the so called ‘History of Religions’ theory was batted about by biblical scholars. One famous theory from around 1850 by an author called Cumont, I believe, suggested that the Christianity swiped major dogmas from the Mithraic cult.

Which was subsequently proved entirely bogus after all archaeological and historical evidence proved the Mithric cult originated some time after 100 AD.

Another famous book by Frazer (spelling?) called “The Golden Bough” came out around the turn of the century and claimed that Christianity was merely one in a long line of so-called ‘dying and rising’ gods. But that one turned out to be, again, completely wrong.

So, too, were arguments that Paul copied dogma from the mystery religions. In fact, all such arguments have been massively overturned and refuted.

I can give you a list of dozens and dozens of books on this subject, but here are two that will clarify things quickly: “The Gospel and the Greeks” by Nash (written when that poor dumb bunny, Joseph Campbell, was on PBS and biblical scholars all over the world were laughing at him) and “The Jesus Legend” written by Eddy, and someone else, whose name escapes me for the moment.

Sorry, but although you can pick up sensationalist books (written by people who have never read a book of biblical scholarship in their lives, and many of them who also believe in aliens abductions ) which make Da Vince Code type claims, the theory is considered dead and buried by biblical scholars, atheist ones and theists as well.

May God wash you in light and grace, Annem
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top